TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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Lemon-Lime: Aug 6, 2009

dwarf74 posted:

The people making it are objectively less terrible than the 5e team

In all fairness this is the absolute lowest bar to clear.

# ? Oct 24, 2018 22:53

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# ? May 25, 2024 08:35

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Piell posted:

The intro is some dumb bullshit full of OSR/grognard signifiers.

It's like all the intentionally over-the-top fanboy nonsense from the front of HackMaster, but real. Cripes.

Speaking of DCC...

# ? Oct 24, 2018 23:08

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

"rub them on an afro"

you know, a free-roaming afro

# ? Oct 24, 2018 23:13

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Mors Rattus posted:

free-roaming afro

3 Hit Dice, % in lair: 30%, drops Treasure Types E and H

# ? Oct 24, 2018 23:15

Jeffrey of YOSPOS: Dec 22, 2005; GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

lol if your weird dice set doesn't include a d22, colloquially known as a bard's d20

# ? Oct 24, 2018 23:17

Megaman's Jockstrap: Jul 16, 2000; What a horrible thread to have a post.

I think Shadow of the Demon Lord is probably going to be my Fantasy Game for as long as I'm playing this stuff. You can easily remove Shwab's purile sense of edgelord humor from it.

# ? Oct 24, 2018 23:25

NGDBSS: Dec 30, 2009

Piell posted:

The intro is some dumb bullshit full of OSR/grognard signifiers.

I instinctively hear this in the style of The Voice from Pyre.

Edit: Well, that or Tony Jay as the Elder God.

NGDBSS fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Oct 24, 2018

# ? Oct 24, 2018 23:46

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

You can easily remove Shwab's purile sense of edgelord humor from it.

For many, it is a feature, not a bug.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 00:32

Serf: May 5, 2011

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I think Shadow of the Demon Lord is probably going to be my Fantasy Game for as long as I'm playing this stuff. You can easily remove Shwab's purile sense of edgelord humor from it.

i have been assured that there exists some sort of cleaned-up generic version of the rules that will apparently either be a stretch goal in the next KS or will be released afterwards

# ? Oct 25, 2018 00:44

Mewnie: Apr 2, 2011; clean dogge
is a
happy dogge

Yeah, I'm kinda turned off by the excessive grim darkness of the canned SOTDL setting. Though I love how weird the elves are and will probably steal that for my games.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 01:01

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Mewnie posted:

Yeah, I'm kinda turned off by the excessive grim darkness of the canned SOTDL setting. Though I love how weird the elves are and will probably steal that for my games.

I honestly know very little about SOTDL beyond a skimmed corebook, which reminded me a bit of Diablo and a bit of Warhammer Fantasy, along with some cherrypicked stuff on reddit like a pic of that spell that destroys people's genitals that's just posted in an attempt to scare people off. How excessive is it, exactly? Like is it Warhammer Fantasy excessive, which is more PG-13 than anything else, or something like how Pathfinder's Golarian setting has stuff like the Bestiality mask, or how its Ogres are based on inbred hillbillies from The Hills Have Eyes?

# ? Oct 25, 2018 01:15

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

From what I can tell it's hard PG-13 gross-outs and just aggressively juvenile.

If there's anything like LoFP's rape 90 babies to cast the spell I haven't seen it.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 01:28

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

I mean if there's nothing in there that rivals the Drakainia in Pathfinder or Infernals 2E for Exalted then I am ruthlessly, mercilessly, a-okay.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 01:33

FishFood: Apr 1, 2012; Now with brine shrimp!

SotDL has some gross shock value stuff and I'd describe it as R-rated, but it's definitely more Conan the Barbarian R than Eli Roth R. From what I've seen the most explicit stuff is body horror, anything worse than that is only alluded to (which still may not work for your group, like it doesn't for mine).

# ? Oct 25, 2018 02:26

Arthil: Feb 17, 2012; A Beard of Constant Sorrow

I wouldn't describe it as edgelord in the slightest, there is a particular almost Evil Dead absurdity to the gross stuff in the book and you can ride on that theme all the way. It's also entirely playable to just remove access to the school of magic that makes peoples bits fall off, or to tone down/maybe remove the corruption system and maybe the insanity system but it isn't as bad. After getting to really read the book, and understand how it works I think I just can't possibly imagine a scenario where I'd not recommend the system to someone wanting to try running for the first time. Beyond a few core rules, so much can be removed/forgotten and not have you run into the same issues as 5e.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 02:34

Serf: May 5, 2011

Arthil posted:

I wouldn't describe it as edgelord in the slightest, there is a particular almost Evil Dead absurdity to the gross stuff in the book and you can ride on that theme all the way. It's also entirely playable to just remove access to the school of magic that makes peoples bits fall off, or to tone down/maybe remove the corruption system and maybe the insanity system but it isn't as bad. After getting to really read the book, and understand how it works I think I just can't possibly imagine a scenario where I'd not recommend the system to someone wanting to try running for the first time. Beyond a few core rules, so much can be removed/forgotten and not have you run into the same issues as 5e.

having listened to rob run the game, i can say that he definitely leans into the comedy of the setting, same as me. its not to everyone's taste (including me) and its not always able to find that right tone, but i'm willing to overlook that for the rad mechanics.

ripping out corruption, insanity and the dark magic traditions while just modifying the flavor of the monsters to whatever you want works just fine in my experience

# ? Oct 25, 2018 03:34

TheDiceMustRoll: Jul 23, 2018

Kurieg posted:

Did loving Tycho from Penny Arcade write this?

SilverMike posted:

I feel dumber for having read that.

potatocubed posted:

Christ.

I would have read three paragraphs into that, put the book back on the shelf and spent my money on something else. Never mind that I think Erol Otus is hugely overrated, the phrase 'visual hieroglyphs' is not an indicator of quality.

(Like the time I read a scifi thing where the aliens used 'bio-organic' technology. That was not a good use of my time.)

FMguru posted:

It's like all the intentionally over-the-top fanboy nonsense from the front of HackMaster, but real. Cripes.

Speaking of DCC...

You got a problem with representation?

dwarf74 posted:

Yah that almost got me to drop my KS pledge. That and the "splash page cultist guy is burning 4e books" post.

But. The people making it are objectively less terrible than the 5e team, and the game itself is quite solid in design.

Guys, it's a joke, reacting this angrily to a joke...what do I even need to say?
These people do not take themselves this seriously.
They embrace new players.
They self deprecate themselves all the time.
Your image of an angry grouchy Goodman Games filled with assholes who gatekeep is mind boggling. I've met these guys. They're not that.

Comrade Gorbash posted:

If you think DCC's presentation isn't full of nostalgia bait for AD&D and One Way True Wayism, then I'm pretty sure the only person who hasn't read it is you, buddy.

Nostalgia bait - yes.
For ADND - no. If anything it's more closer to B/X, what with Race-As-Class. There's no multiclassing. They flat out state that keeping time records is up to the judge, and it wasn't included to allow for faster play. That's a far loving cry from "You can't have meaningful campaigns if strict time records are not kept." Rations and torches are supplied, and then there's very few rules on what they do. Every single class is infinitely better at the job they're good at than the ones in B/X are. DCC disregards pointless, clunky, fiddly rules, opting for more simple, streamlined poo poo.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I mean, I could quote verse and scripture, and it's a book that actively has an extensive list of OSR blogs it pushes you to check out and definitely wants its readers to explore the OSR community. It tells you to do stuff because it's tradition while admitting some readers will buck that. Of course, you can make your own conclusions about what is OSR and what isn't, and they can say it's not, but I feel like it's more a thing of intent and focus than quibbling back and forth whether or not Lankhmar-esque magic corruption or push-your-luck cleric mechanics or a random quirky luck stat is properly old school or not. Yes, it's somewhat modernized, but the same can be said for many OSR games to different degrees. Kevin Crawford's games are considered OSR but they aren't slavishly devoted to just mimeographing Gygax's words either. I feel like it's OSR. You're welcome to disagree, I'm not too worried about it.

Have I read every word of every page of DCC? No, I haven't, I've been digging through a lot of fantasy games to see what'll inspire interesting ideas. I have a pretty good idea of how it works and have at least skimmed through the whole book, focusing in to stop and read how the basic system works and how it plays, how the classes work, how spells are cast, and that much. If I don't like ketchup, I don't need to necessarily drink a bottle of ketchup or taste every brand of ketchup to define the fact I don't want ketchup on something. You can jump to whatever conclusions you like based on that, but you need to start paying me before I read another 150+ page spell section front-to-back, because that poo poo is work. If you think there's some subsystem I may have missed that will turn me into an expanding brain meme, feel free to quote page numbers at me. But just claiming I only read the one thing doesn't help.

Here's one thing I really did like: the discussion of what it called "pre-genre fantasy" in the Appendix N section, and it's probably the thing I'll take home from the book. Because, frankly, that's what I'm aiming for in my 13th Age game. Granted, I wish DCC walked the talk a little more in that regard, though I appreciate that it does aim at pulling more from old pulp fantasy. Trying to go to pre-Tolkien sources and not necessarily fall back on the hoary fantasy stereotypes is a fun exercise, and after playing in a Lankhmar game for a year it's definitely where my brain is at. I don't know if I'll succeed in doing more than having different elves, there's still some of the old stereotypes I like and still want to use, but not being bound by them is handy. I just wish the attitude of that essay had been up front instead of... the weird gatekeepey stuff he put up front. I understand that was probably intended as a joke, but I didn't laugh!

Look, if you didn't get the joke, fine, but it's not "Gatekeeping" just because they put some dorky bullshit in the front.
It asks you to try 3d6 down the line, it doesn't tell you not to. There are several sections where Goodman admits - you will not listen to all of the rules. And rulings are more important than rules, which is not what ADnD, the tournament game, is about.

As far as whether it's OSR or not, it's pretty fair to say it's not. In SWN, you can make characters and run through Keep on the Borderlands with little to no conversion. DCC? No way. Monsters aren't written like OSR monsters, hit dice don't work the same, special abilities don't work the same, Experience doesn't work the same, nothing works the same! There is so real compatibility with OSR content without heavy conversion and lots of OSR products flat out break if you try to run them in DCC - I've been trying to do Maze of the Blue Medusa in DCC, and holy poo poo it does not work.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 03:57

Mr. Maltose: Feb 16, 2011; The Guffless Girlverine

The OSR Defender Has Logged On.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 04:00

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

It really is just a vaguely pretentious joke that people are hellbent on taking seriously

# ? Oct 25, 2018 04:20

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

Whether or not it's OSR just isn't an argument I'm really interested in continuing.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 04:22

TheDiceMustRoll: Jul 23, 2018

Mr. Maltose posted:

The OSR Defender Has Logged On.

Nice Shitpost.

Bedlamdan posted:

It really is just a vaguely pretentious joke that people are hellbent on taking seriously

I wouldn't even call it pretentious, I've seen these guys in some of the goodman games seminars they do at Gen-Con and they'll be like "Yeah, I created the Punjar setting, it's just a loving Lankhmar rip-off." and "Yeah I wrote the Purple Planet, I basically just copy + pasted Barsoom there." These aren't guys who have any grand delusions or pretensions of what they're doing.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 04:23

Joe Slowboat: Nov 9, 2016; Higgledy-Piggledy Whale Statements

"It's not Gatekeeping when one has the specific set of cultural referents that allow one to determine that the aggressively cliquish, derogatory opening text is actually a joke and not really intended to scare people off."

# ? Oct 25, 2018 04:23

TheDiceMustRoll: Jul 23, 2018

Alien Rope Burn posted:

Whether or not it's OSR just isn't an argument I'm really interested in continuing.

I actually forgot to finish my thought for some reason.

I like the term "OSR-Adjacent", which is to say that from a distance, it looks about the same, but the closer you get, the less it resembles the thing. Like Security Guards or Loss Prevention Officers are "law enforcement adjacent", but they're not cops. DCC looks, from a distance like an OSR game, but the closer you explore the system, it's very new-school.

Oh well, funnels are still pretty great.

Joe Slowboat posted:

"It's not Gatekeeping when one has the specific set of cultural referents that allow one to determine that the aggressively cliquish, derogatory opening text is actually a joke and not really intended to scare people off."

# ? Oct 25, 2018 04:30

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

It literally says "This book is not for you unless you understand the historical significance of Gygax and Arneson." And that's just the first paragraph before they get into even more esoterica.

How is that not Gatekeeping?

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

You got a problem with representation?

This is really bad representation. The literally magical black female with her literally magical black afro is at least Blaxplotation adjacent.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 04:32

Mr. Maltose: Feb 16, 2011; The Guffless Girlverine

Imagine thinking that the actual endowment of mystical power to black hair, a hellaciously fraught and political topic at the best of times, was just good representation. Just some good clean fun.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 04:35

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

DCC traces a heritage back to OSR in the sense that during the heyday of the OGL license, Goodman Games's product du jour was a line of 3e-compatible dungeon crawling modules called, Dungeon Crawl Classics:

peep that trade dress - it's supposed to be a call-back to TSR/AD&D-era modules:

and the introduction for these modules is also revealing of their overall intent:

The idea of the level-0 funnel even derives from this earlier line of products:

So 3e/OGL came and went, and then 4e, and Goodman Games tried to expand into that space, but were not successful, and by some accounts the company was on shaky ground for a while. This rather explains Goodman's animosity towards 4e: much like Paizo, the GSL shut down/cut out what was probably a marginally successful line of business for him.

In effect, Dungeon Crawl Classics the RPG was sort of like Pathfinder in that it was a way for Goodman Games to keep publishing module content for a game, but the game's licensing would be entirely under their control, so that nobody could ever take that away from them again.

And the reason it's not "OSR-compatible" in the sense that the stats aren't easily convertible to/from something like the Basic/Expert set is because the origins of the game are 3rd Edition D&D (hence why we still have Fort/Ref/Will saves), but there's absolutely a connection to the OSR because the origins of the game were a series of dungeon-crawling modules that tried to emulate the feel of old AD&D modules in the first place.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 04:35

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

Joe Slowboat posted:

"It's not Gatekeeping when one has the specific set of cultural referents that allow one to determine that the aggressively cliquish, derogatory opening text is actually a joke and not really intended to scare people off."

Point of order, a joke can be intended to scare people off. Which is the case here.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 05:45

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Jokes can also just be bad.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 06:09

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Comrade Gorbash posted:

Point of order, a joke can be intended to scare people off. Which is the case here.

for what it's worth, personally I did stay away from reading/engaging with DCC for a long time specifically because that opening spiel made it sound like I wasn't aware enough of old-school games or embracing enough of the weird dice mechanics to be "worthy", and I doubt that I'm the only one who felt like it

# ? Oct 25, 2018 06:21

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

"The introductory material of your instruction manual isn't meant to be taken at face value" is a bad look. Someone who isn't familiar with something doesn't know how seriously anyone involved takes themself. This is how the company's choosing to present itself in the very first bit of material you encounter in their flagship product.

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

You got a problem with representation?

Who, precisely, do you feel this is representing?

# ? Oct 25, 2018 06:40

Comrade Koba: Jul 2, 2007

Comrade Koba fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Oct 25, 2018

# ? Oct 25, 2018 08:35

Cinnamon Bear: Aug 29, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

neongrey posted:

Who, precisely, do you feel this is representing?

imaginary minority stereotypes, I presume

# ? Oct 25, 2018 09:14

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

The hostility from OSR types is almost baffling. Like, as bad as the stereotypes are, even 90% of the groggiest old school video gamers will fall over themselves to introduce you to what they like if you show anything resembling interest. Hell, bring up non D&D based games and people will help you go through whatever hoops are required to give them a shot online, like with Battletech.

The whole 'kids these days so coddled' thing kinda went out the window in the age of Dark Souls and Dwarf Fortress. Everything they claim to like about the retroclones is and has always been crack to a certain audience segment, you just need to teach them.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 09:28

Goa Tse-tung: Feb 11, 2008; ;3; Yams Fan

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

# ? Oct 25, 2018 12:26

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

You got a problem with representation?

That's a racist joke and really not appropriate "representation" to anyone.

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

Guys, it's a joke, reacting this angrily to a joke...what do I even need to say?
These people do not take themselves this seriously.
They embrace new players.
They self deprecate themselves all the time.
Your image of an angry grouchy Goodman Games filled with assholes who gatekeep is mind boggling. I've met these guys. They're not that.

I'm not picturing Goodman Games that way, but that intro does lean a bit hard on self-satisfied nostalgia. I'm sure it's meant to be an affectionate parody, but I can see why someone would roll their eyes at it, too. Why are you claiming that anyone thinks this game is overly-serious, hostile to new players, not self-depreciating, etc? Alien Rope Burn said the game wasn't his cup of tea but he did say there were points he liked. You're painting this all as way more openly hostile for some reason and then scooting around on the carpet when people start prodding you for being defensive.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 12:49

counterspin: Apr 2, 2010

To the extent that their product doesn't communicate who you're saying they are, it's because that part of the product is badly written.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 13:19

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

I wonder what part of Goodman Games' self-deprecating golly-gosh sense of humor "I commissioned an artist to draw someone burning copies of another game and I figured I'd reminisce about that on my Kickstarter" falls under.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 14:26

Cessna: Feb 20, 2013; KHABAHBLOOOM

Piell posted:

The intro is some dumb bullshit full of OSR/grognard signifiers.

That you remember the Wandering Harlot table with glee and treasure its significance!

That you are prepared to get in an internet slap-fight over why evil dark-skinned races are perfectly fine and other people are too sensitive!

That you will include at least one rape-centered vignette in each adventure!

That you recognize that Oriental Adventures is an accurate representation of people from other places and dream of one day conquering a geisha!

# ? Oct 25, 2018 15:40

GimpInBlack: Sep 27, 2012; That's right, kids, take lots of drugs, leave the universe behind, and pilot Enlightenment Voltron out into the cosmos to meet Alien Jesus.

Cessna posted:

That you remember the Wandering Harlot table with glee and treasure its significance!

That you are prepared to get in an internet slap-fight over why evil dark-skinned races are perfectly fine and other people are too sensitive!

That you will include at least one rape-centered vignette in each adventure!

That you recognize that Oriental Adventures is an accurate representation of people from other places and dream of one day conquering a geisha!

And lest anyone think this is subtext or an exaggeration:

Dungeon Crawl Classics p. 429 posted:

SUBHUMAN
Subhuman: Init -1; Atk club +3 melee (1d4+2); AC 13; HD 1d8+2; MV 30�; Act 1d20; SV Fort +2, Ref +1, Will -2; AL C.
Cavemen, degenerates, mutants, goat-headed beast-men, swamp-dwellers, cult-worshippers, lost tribesmen, and jungle natives all fall under the category of subhuman. Subhumans are of a low intelligence and are always led by a higher-order humanoid: a sorcerer, priest, cult leader, demon, or king of pure bloodline. In combat they swarm mindlessly, beating viciously with their clubs. Outside of combat they grunt and leer, communicating monosyllabically only about subjects of the flesh.

DCC has some pretty cool mechanical ideas, but loving yikes.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 15:49

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# ? May 25, 2024 08:35

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

yeeeeeah between this and 'totally rub your dice on your black friend's hair'

uuuuuh

uuuuuuuuh

# ? Oct 25, 2018 15:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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