|
George H.W. oval office posted:Those alternatives are better than the first one. You have it down that you want X and say as such. Do not let it be open ended by them to agree to flexibility. After reviewing the offer I would like X and Y based on duties required, competitor offers. Also make sure to get that promotion in writing with a deadline Ok, I can start with A and work my way down the list until they say “understandable, let me check.” I will get a promotion deadline, but I can’t think of any promotion criteria much more specific than “If my work is satisfactory...” But I know I can do the job! How about asking for the offer to state: “As manager-in-training, responsibilities will be transferred from the existing manager incrementally as requested, and after taking on all responsibilities I will be promoted to manager by Summer of 2019.” I’m just saying Summer as they did rather than haggling up the date because I don’t want to add the outgoing manager to the other side of the table too. teardrop fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Oct 25, 2018 |
#
?
Oct 25, 2018 18:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 02:09 |
|
|
I wouldn't trust having a promotion in writing to be honest. If they decide they don't want to promote you even though it's in writing, what recourse do you have?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2018 22:22
|
|
|
A lawsuit, if it's guaranteed in writing. That's why, to be more precise about this, "in writing" means "$COMPANY will promote $EMPLOYEE to $POSITION at a salary of $$SALARY on $DATE", period. If it's conditioned on the company being satisfied with your work or with your hitting arbitrary targets, then it's worthless. I seriously doubt any company would ever be willing to unconditionally guarantee a promotion. I sure as hell wouldn't. But I've negotiated a guaranteed salary increase after 6 months (so at the 6 month mark their options are fire me or pay me), and it worked out well. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Oct 25, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2018 22:30
|
|
|
teardrop posted:I’d like to ask for $5-15k more depending on their offer, but what’s the nicest phrasing for my counteroffer? Answer this for yourself honestly: What is your "winning" number? Is it [Offer + $5k]? [Offer + 15k]? You can skip the back and forth of negotiations and show you're committed to the job by telling them the offer is very interesting and you have some other offers to consider - but if they can see their way to [winning number] then you'll sign immediately. Not saying this is the best way to do it, but it's an option.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2018 23:10
|
|
|
interrodactyl posted:Answer this for yourself honestly: What is your "winning" number? Is it [Offer + $5k]? [Offer + 15k]? You can skip the back and forth of negotiations and show you're committed to the job by telling them the offer is very interesting and you have some other offers to consider - but if they can see their way to [winning number] then you'll sign immediately. My winning number is 80k, the range was just because I wouldn’t be bold enough to counter with more than 70 if they lowballed 55. I am willing to assign some value to the promised promotion because it isn’t a headcount expansion, it’s a replacement. But yes, I will let them know that if my counteroffer works I will sign as soon as I get it and start in 3 weeks. Re: Promotion in writing. I do not think that I can get an unconditionally guaranteed date (I care more about getting the promotion than the pay). Does this mean I don’t need to worry about playing lawyer and can just ask them to write: “If performance is satisfactory, will be promoted to manager by summer 2019.” That seems easy to get. Or should I stick with my “transfer of duties” phrasing? I don’t want to spend goodwill negotiating on an ultimately unenforceable clause when I could just focus on starting salary instead. I’m seeing opinions here on both sides so I’d appreciate a tiebreaker.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 01:06
|
|
|
This the first time in person not over the phone or email I've been asked my salary expectations. I tried two times to use the negotiable based on experience line, and that I'm flexible, and we can base it on skill and experience. The hiring manager kept pushing though and did get a number of me. My back was against the wall and I did not know how to answer when they keep pushing. Nice guy otherwise. I probably won't get the job but this is a good experience because I need to learn to do this in person and not back down when I'm directly under pressure. I should have turned the question on him: What are your salary expectations for the role? How could I have handled this situation better? DropsySufferer fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Oct 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 10:57
|
|
|
DropsySufferer posted:
I usually go with something like "I can't give you a specific number I have to consider the entire comp package. Benefits PTO bonus etc..." All of those things can affect my base salary by a decent amount. You can then ask them what they have budgeted for the position so we can make sure we're in the ball park we don't want to waste anyone's time with a job that maxes out at say 50k and your looking for 70k. If we're in the range I will usually say that's a number I think we can work with and I look forward to hearing about your complete comp package.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 12:29
|
|
|
Find the highest number you have the balls to ask for, and ask for 20% more than that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 16:08
|
|
|
Hi all - does the thread have any reactions on how to approach this: (1) I’ve been offered a 13% raise as part of a promotion, which I’ve been lobbying for; (2) this is a strong percentage increase, but far off the mark from the peer group for this title/level (which would require a 30% increase); (3) my BANO within the company is also 30%, from a team that would very much like me to work for them; (4) crucially, the person offering the BANO reports to the boss offering me the 13%, so I could see this getting killed/reduced down; (5) my external BANO is less than what I’m currently on (which I don’t think necessarily implies I’m overpaid, but that my knowledge and skill set is significantly more valuable in this company) All advice appreciated!
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 17:46
|
|
|
Try to take the 30%. Otherwise ask for more from your boss, otherwise still take it and start looking for a new job.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 19:19
|
|
|
Yeah you can now use that 30% higher number as your baseline while interviewing. (You don't have to say it, just believe in your heart of hearts that it's what you make and anything lower is unacceptable.) Even if you suspect leaving your company will lower your pay, there's no harm in getting interview practice and seeing what's out there. Interviewing while not really planning on leaving is a good way to practice pushing boundaries while negotiating - know going in that you'll be shooting for the moon. Then when one of the companies blows your mind and beats the 30% offer, take it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 19:31
|
|
|
If you have the 30% in writing I'd just take that. It sounds like if you try to leverage that number for the other position that it might decrease instead of the other position increasing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2018 21:22
|
|
|
DropsySufferer posted:This the first time in person not over the phone or email I've been asked my salary expectations. I tried two times to use the negotiable based on experience line, and that I'm flexible, and we can base it on skill and experience. Yeah, I got put in this situation a little while back. I responded saying I'd need to better understand the requirements of the position and how I fit in the role. I was later told that the internal recruiter I spoke with referred to me as combative. I'm not the best with tone, it sucked to get put in that situation. If I didn't already know the team doing the hiring, I'm sure that'd have been the end for me as a candidate.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2018 03:23
|
|
|
teardrop posted:My winning number is 80k, the range was just because I wouldn’t be bold enough to counter with more than 70 if they lowballed 55. I am willing to assign some value to the promised promotion because it isn’t a headcount expansion, it’s a replacement. But yes, I will let them know that if my counteroffer works I will sign as soon as I get it and start in 3 weeks. What you could do wrt the promotion in writing is a written agreement that you either get the promotion after your training/trial period/first year, or you leave the company with a nice severance check. That way if they don't like you they can let you go, or if they ended up lying about the promotion to get a new QC for less pay, you'll only have wasted one year.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2018 14:31
|
|
|
Dance Officer posted:What you could do wrt the promotion in writing is a written agreement that you either get the promotion after your training/trial period/first year, or you leave the company with a nice severance check. That is a good idea. I do think their promise is in good faith, though, because if they just wanted me as an extra QC they wouldn’t be wasting time with manager training. Their current QC is not at all overqualified, so it would be inconsistent for them to hire headcount they don’t need and spend time on the training just to get an overqualified QC who will leave in a year. Anyway, enough questions about that until I have their offer letter anyway. I just tend to overprepare. Maybe the money will be so good that I won’t need any written promises and it becomes a moot point haha. What I’d love to hear about next is handling the pre-offer phone call. Before reading this thread, I botched one I got last week. I even filled out pre-interview paperwork listing my base salary, not even bonus. I was just focused on getting my first practice interview and lowballed myself. HR: So I see your current salary is 60k. Me: I’m looking for 70-80s. HR: Based on the position, we can only offer high 60s. Can you still accept? Me: I’m sure we can make this work. Send the offer and I’ll discuss it with my wife. Not so great. I’m wondering how to handle this type of call for the next company’s offer. Obviously this time they don’t know my salary or target. I plan to deflect a couple of times on my target until they offer or I fold by saying my “just say yes” number, not a range. If they counter with a lower number: Should I avoid doing much discussion over the phone and wrap things up by saying “Well, send me that offer. I’ll discuss it with my wife and get back to you promptly.” Or should I get them anticipating negotiation immediately by saying over the phone, “...I see. ...Let me be clear, you are my first choice, but my wife wouldn’t forgive me if I took a lower offer. From our discussion I know that I can contribute a lot of value because X. But send me what you have so far, and I’m sure we can make this work.” How’s my phrasing? If the latter, should I add a line about “based on my research and other offers, I know that asking for that is fair” ? Or is moving the discussion to email as much as possible safer? For the next call I’m expecting, my BATNA is not great, because I really like the job and dislike my current one. teardrop fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Oct 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2018 16:21
|
|
|
not an expert negotiator but I have started not agreeing to anything big in the same call/conversation it is proposed. I guess I would if it was like way past my expected top of range offer but that hasn't happened yet. I have to talk to my wife, let me think about it overnight, I'll ask my cat. Whatever. Everyone has been fine with this response that I can't decide right now. ...You could also try what my friend does. He negotiates daily for his job and once a year attends a timeshare pitch to practice saying "no" over and over under huge psychological pressure.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2018 16:39
|
|
|
teardrop posted:.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2018 17:04
|
|
|
You were looking for 70-80s and they can only offer high 60s. Say you can meet in the middle and will accept 69.999,99. Anything below that anwser with no. Also, why the hell did you give them your current salary? Edit: if this was your first interview you can be pretty sure you’ll be able to get similar (and better) offers. Don’t let them lowball you. Start walking away and see if they backpaddle. LochNessMonster fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Oct 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2018 18:50
|
|
|
I would always start with clarifying the offer and then saying you need to discuss it with your family. It not only allows you time to think, but changes the dynamic as now the decision maker is someone the company doesn't have direct access to which removes most pressure tactics.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2018 19:43
|
|
|
LochNessMonster posted:Also, why the hell did you give them your current salary? I wasn’t really thinking, just doing whatever they asked because I hadn’t interviewed for 8 years or ever really and wanted them to fly me out for some practice. It turns out I interview well and one of them told me I’m kind of overqualified so I don’t plan on taking that job. Anyway, per my question in bold: should I show dissatisfaction and start negotiating up over the phone immediately when the next job calls to say they are making an offer, or should I just say “let me think it over, I’ll email you.” Edit: It looks like asus is recommending just wrapping up the phone call and taking it to email. Thanks teardrop fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Oct 28, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2018 21:28
|
|
|
teardrop posted:
Yeah, take it to email so you don’t get pressured into anwsering questions you don’t want to. It also gives you time to think about what you want and how to best write down your response.
|
|
#
?
Oct 28, 2018 19:15
|
|
|
Thanks! A new question, just had a weird interview with a 10-person startup. The role will pay salary, equity, and a sort of commission. It was described as “your expensive machine is at 40% capacity. Whatever new business you can bring us to utilize it, half of that money will go directly to you.” I do have a couple of ideas, but I’ll have to learn about regulatory requirements to know if it’s feasible. Question is: A. How much value should I assign to equity? Minimal? B. How likely would I be to get screwed on that “new business” money? Would it take serious lawyering up to make the contract work? Is it almost less complicated to startup by myself (not that I would)? I’m a little concerned that they want me as both a scientist and a sales guy. It seems like there is low overlap between those personality types. I’ll check out the offer of course!
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2018 21:59
|
|
|
My immediate reaction is that that sounds like a pyramid scheme.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2018 22:22
|
|
|
I don't know anything about the "commission" scheme, but early stage startup equity is usually worth less than a lottery ticket, especially if it is common equity (vs preferred). Even if the stars align and that startup makes it big and gets to some major liquidity event a few years down the road, the odds that a) you still are still there and own/can exercise the equity/options and b) haven't been diluted to nothingness are not in your favor. Until that liquidity event (that probably never happens), the equity is effectively worthless and there is no secondary market for it. There are outlier exceptions, but it's very rare.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2018 22:41
|
|
|
I'd want to nail down what it means to "bring them" new business. For example, would you only be compensated if you manage the entire sales process for the prospect, or is a referral to the sales part of the org enough? I don't think you'd need serious lawyering to make it work (though it's good practice to have a lawyer look at any contract you're intending to sign), but you should be completely clear on what everything means without making any assumptions. There is almost no situation where starting your own company would be "less complicated" than being an employee.
|
|
#
?
Oct 29, 2018 23:28
|
|
|
lol just say no and move on.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2018 00:50
|
|
|
Starting my own company was tongue-in-cheek, but I think the way I’ll evaluate the offer is by just considering the salary and thinking of the commission as “opportunity to work overtime for a highly variable rate” IF I can get a good contract for it. Since the commission contract will be complex (what costs are deducted from gross etc), how about I negotiate in 2 stages? First for all the regular stuff, then drawing up the commission contract afterwards. I should give their salary offer a penalty for the risk inherent in a small startup, right? teardrop fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Oct 30, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2018 01:07
|
|
|
Eric the Mauve posted:lol just say no and move on. This is the negotiation thread! Isn’t that a suboptimal strategy compared to asking for too much money and using their best offer as a reference point? I haven’t been hunting for long, so I suppose I have more free time than open offers. teardrop fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Oct 30, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2018 01:13
|
|
|
Generally, yes. In the case where it's already very clear they are going to pay nowhere near the salary you want (a startup offering a bunch of stock options and vaguely defined commissions in lieu of salary, just for instance), it's just a waste of time. As you just pointed out, you should want *more* compensation to work for a startup, not less, because of the heightened risk that they run out of money in 8 months and stop paying you.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2018 01:18
|
|
|
Guinness posted:Even if the stars align and that startup makes it big and gets to some major liquidity event a few years down the road, the odds that a) you still are still there and own/can exercise the equity/options and b) haven't been diluted to nothingness are not in your favor. Until that liquidity event (that probably never happens), the equity is effectively worthless and there is no secondary market for it. My_life_in_startups.txt Including the last sentence. I would not suggest this path. It's too much luck and too much pain. And you might not get lucky. And even in the beginning of this I would have known better than to work for that startup.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2018 01:41
|
|
|
Motronic posted:I would not suggest this path. It's too much luck and too much pain. And you might not get lucky. I’m convinced, it smelled wrong to me from the start. The technical and sales aspects of the job were just too different. I’ll advise them to just focus on a technical hire and get some intern to do commission sales, it’s a college town. Thank you thread! Next question, about a job I really want. What’s my follow up communications strategy? The situation is I had a good interview, we went around and agreed that it looks like a great fit, no reservations, and they said they planned to move forward within 2 weeks. HR said to call with any questions. I sent a brief thank you email afterwards, as I always do. It’s 2 weeks this Thursday. I do have an offer for a worse job open but not under immediate pressure to decide. Is it normal to call HR and ask if they plan to move forward, and if so should I call Thursday or next Monday? Or does any contact make me look overeager, and I should hope for the best but play it cool?
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2018 15:26
|
|
|
I can't see any context where a polite how is the process coming along you know I'm interested in the position kind of question would be seen as a negative. And if it is, that's a red flag for you. HR moves slooooooooowly in general.
|
|
#
?
Oct 30, 2018 16:03
|
|
|
The answer to this question might just be "quit" but the company I work for has a lot of benefits (insurance, stock grants, flexible schedules, no dress code, etc.) so I'd really like to salvage it and get my career moving again if I can because I've been treading water for 4 years. I work for an ecommerce company and my job has been to set up sales for our websites. Lots of copying and pasting specs, finding and editing images, and then the little things required in salesforce like connecting the right item's inventory to the right sale. I'm very much a jack of all trades/master of none, which makes me very valuable to the company; my official job is to set up sales, but I'm also "encouraged" to do community engagement stuff in our forums and create videos for our website, especially since the community manager quit 3 years ago and the video guy got fired a month ago and neither will be replaced. I'm also the only person who can fill in when the photographer is out. I've been here for 4 of the company's 5 year life, which puts me in the top 15 employees with the longest tenure out of about 50. I got a raise on my first and second anniversaries, but none since. I'm burning out and they keep piling work on (I've had to work 1-8 hours every weekend for the past 5 weekends so people who can't get their poo poo done on time can earn commission) so I'm really ready to change positions. Since it is a startup, they promised me "plenty of opportunities for growth" but I have been witness to almost none, for me or my coworkers. Recently our email marketing specialist quit and I requested to be considered for the position. I do not have email marketing experience, but my degree was (basically) marketing, I've done graphic design for the company, I've written copy for the company, and I know the company well, so I thought it'd be a perfect fit. They said they still had to decide what level of experience they were looking for and would get back to me. Today I saw that they are interviewing for the position, so I guess I didn't get considered. The fact is I'm about to snap and I need a fuckin' promotion and/or a big raise. The CEO mentioned that we would start to do reviews and promotions in Q1, but I don't want to wait that long for another promise that might not deliver. Any advice on how I can present all of that without sounding like I'm bitching (even though I am) and get them to give me at least 12k (25%) more? The dream would be for them to make a new position for me doing marketing or something, but honestly I'm starting to get paranoid that they are happy with having someone as skilled as I am in a menial job because I don't make mistakes and they still get creative work out of me.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2018 17:50
|
|
|
Friend posted:The answer to this question might just be "quit" It is. I worked at a startup for a few years and while I did initially get promoted early on, they kept promising I'd seem a significant raise down the line or a title bump over and over again and it never happened. Then the company went bankrupt.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2018 18:18
|
|
|
lol that company is already quietly working on the bankruptcy paperwork.  You really need to take away from that whole experience the lesson that you should never, ever allow an employer to exploit you like that (piling on extra responsibilities for no extra pay, stringing you along with vague promises), because once you allow it once it immediately becomes their baseline expectation of you. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Nov 2, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2018 18:26
|
|
|
The one thing I'm confident in is that we're not going bankrupt anytime soon; without going into details, we're in a good place financially and have been profitable with consistent growth for years. We're long past the "start up" stage, though they still use that term because it's trendy and it means they can underpay. It wouldn't even be an unreasonable workload if I didn't have to rely on other people getting their stuff done early, but they all suck and wait until the last minute before passing it on to me. I was overworked once before and I bitched enough so they hired someone else to help me; now I want to preemptively address it before it gets that bad again with a promotion or at least a raise Friend fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Nov 2, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2018 18:46
|
|
|
Do you have the slightest concept, then, of just how much you've been taken advantage of by this company? I'm not saying go to the CEO's office right now and tell him to go gently caress himself, satisfying as that might be, but go find a better job, dude.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2018 18:48
|
|
|
Eric the Mauve posted:Do you have the slightest concept, then, of just how much you've been taken advantage of by this company? Judging by the cars driven by those who get commission, a lot. And I am definitely looking elsewhere, I haven't been at unemployment levels of job searching but at least one or two applications a week. I just figured I'd ask in this thread to see if there was any advice for avenues to take to better my situation before I had an offer elsewhere.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2018 19:11
|
|
|
Friend posted:Judging by the cars driven by those who get commission, a lot. And I am definitely looking elsewhere, I haven't been at unemployment levels of job searching but at least one or two applications a week. I just figured I'd ask in this thread to see if there was any advice for avenues to take to better my situation before I had an offer elsewhere. lol, this is a little bit of a derail but you should 100% never judge someone based on how they choose to spend their money (or incur debt!)
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2018 19:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 02:09 |
|
|
EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:lol, this is a little bit of a derail but you should 100% never judge someone based on how they choose to spend their money (or incur debt!)
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2018 19:41
|
|
