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Weltlich
Feb 13, 2006
Grimey Drawer

General Emergency posted:

Speaking of Redbreast 12. What would you compare it with regards to scotch? I keep hearing it's really good but never really found an Irish whiskey that wasn't pretty dull.

Have you tried Connemara? It's a peated Irish whiskey that I've enjoyed quite a bit over the years. Compares favorable to Islay and the Maritime whiskies.

For Redbreast, I'd say that it's one of the more complex Irish whiskies. I'm generally not a huge fan of Jameson or Bushmills (they're not awful, but they're just sort of uninteresting to me,) but redbreast has a lot going on. It's hard to compare it to scotch, but I'd say it most resembles a Speyside in character. It's got nice fruit notes, some almond, a gently spice and warmth on the finish.

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Nth Doctor
Sep 7, 2010

Darkrai used Dream Eater!
It's super effective!



So can you share any deets on what you've been experimenting with, for all of this barrel knowledge you have?

E:

Weltlich posted:

Have you tried Connemara? It's a peated Irish whiskey that I've enjoyed quite a bit over the years. Compares favorable to Islay and the Maritime whiskies.

Fuckin' Connemara yesssss

S.W.O.R.D. Agent
Apr 30, 2012

Apparently my state (Ohio) is doing a closeout sale on a bunch over overstocked booze. Anyone see anything worth picking up?

I'm thinking I'm going to grab the HP Dark Cove and the Beam Brown Rice, but might grab a few other things as well.

JIM BEAM BROWN RICE $28.99
ARDBEG DARK COVE $101.25
CRAGGANMORE 12 $35.99
CUTTY SARK PROHIBITION $16.49
DEWARS 15 $32.99
KILCHOMAN LOCH $53.99
BOWMORE 12Y $57.99
BRUICHLADDICH ROCKS $25.99
BUSHMILLS HONEY $12.49
CARDHU $27.99
GLENLIVET NADURRA OLOROSA $50.99
GLENLIVET NADURRA 16 $50.99
HEDONISM QUINDEC $183.27
HIGHLAND PARK DARK ORIGINS $47.99
JOHNNIE WALKER PLATINUM $110.99
SCAPA SKIREN $41.99
TULLAMORE DEW PHOENIX $30.49

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005





I really, really like Cardhu for the price.

biglads
Feb 21, 2007

I could've gone to Blatherwycke



Internet Explorer posted:

I really, really like Cardhu for the price.

All of the Glenlivet Nadurra I've tried had have been very good.

Deceptive Thinker
Oct 5, 2005

I'll rip out your optics!

S.W.O.R.D. Agent posted:

Apparently my state (Ohio) is doing a closeout sale on a bunch over overstocked booze. Anyone see anything worth picking up?

I'm thinking I'm going to grab the HP Dark Cove and the Beam Brown Rice, but might grab a few other things as well.

Glenlivet Nadurra 16 is a steal at that price (and it's been discontinued for a few years now)
HP Dark Origins is a really good deal

Weltlich
Feb 13, 2006
Grimey Drawer
Grab that Bruichladdich Rocks as well. At $26, that's a fine and interesting scotch. I bought a bottle when it was ~$50, and don't know if I'd pay that again, but $26 is totally worth it.

Nth Doctor posted:

So can you share any deets on what you've been experimenting with, for all of this barrel knowledge you have?

I'll take my phone to work tomorrow and get some pics of the various barrels I've got going.

S.W.O.R.D. Agent
Apr 30, 2012

Thanks for the recommendations.

I'll be there picking up my booze first thing in the morning. I'll report back.

Vox Nihili
May 28, 2008

S.W.O.R.D. Agent posted:

Apparently my state (Ohio) is doing a closeout sale on a bunch over overstocked booze. Anyone see anything worth picking up?

I'm thinking I'm going to grab the HP Dark Cove and the Beam Brown Rice, but might grab a few other things as well.

JIM BEAM BROWN RICE $28.99
ARDBEG DARK COVE $101.25
CRAGGANMORE 12 $35.99
CUTTY SARK PROHIBITION $16.49
DEWARS 15 $32.99
KILCHOMAN LOCH $53.99
BOWMORE 12Y $57.99
BRUICHLADDICH ROCKS $25.99
BUSHMILLS HONEY $12.49
CARDHU $27.99
GLENLIVET NADURRA OLOROSA $50.99
GLENLIVET NADURRA 16 $50.99
HEDONISM QUINDEC $183.27
HIGHLAND PARK DARK ORIGINS $47.99
JOHNNIE WALKER PLATINUM $110.99
SCAPA SKIREN $41.99
TULLAMORE DEW PHOENIX $30.49

I would probably buy two or three bottles of Bruichladdich Rocks at that price. It's discontinued.

Dr. Gojo Shioji
Apr 22, 2004

S.W.O.R.D. Agent posted:

Thanks for the recommendations.

I'll be there picking up my booze first thing in the morning. I'll report back.

Is this everywhere in Ohio? Maybe I should check my local store after work.

emotive
Dec 26, 2006

Jameson is up to $35 at my local shop, and I have to assume it's because they started packing them in tubes like the fancier whiskies. What the hell?

Tullamore is also climbing in price. I'm glad Powers hasn't caught on much... yet.

General Emergency
Apr 2, 2009

Can we talk?
Might be the trade wars. All the bottom shelf bourbons have taken a euro or two price hike over here... Some distilleries are eating the hit for now but I doubt it'll continue...

Samopsa
Nov 9, 2009

Krijgt geen speciaal kerstdiner!
Went to Dublin last week, tasted some local stuff there, and ended up with a bottle of writers tears for like 25 bucks. As a beginner whiskey drinker, I like the smoothness of most irish whiskeys compared to scotch. Also did a tour at the whiskey museum in Dublin, wasn't that special honestly. Not much of a museum, mainly just a speech with a guided tasting. The dude who did the tour was fun to listen to at least, and ~20 bucks for tasting 3 whiskeys and hearing some history ain't that bad.

S.W.O.R.D. Agent
Apr 30, 2012

Dr. Gojo Shioji posted:

Is this everywhere in Ohio? Maybe I should check my local store after work.

No this was at a "pop-up" shop in Columbus. Here more info: https://www.dispatch.com/news/20181011/ohio-liquor-control-to-open-clearance-store-in-columbus

I just got home and the only thing I was able to score was the Cragganmore 12 and the HP Dark Origins. Not a total bust, but not quite what I'd hoped for either. I had to ask for the HP and was told the Beam was gone last weekend. Although, apparently they put out a small selection every morning and people are lining up for it. They did have a single bottle of Aberlour 12 on sale there as well, but I already have two bottles of A'bunadh waiting to be opened.

The guy working there did say he expected the store to stay open through Christmas, and to check back. He seemed to think they'll be getting a lot more interesting stuff in the coming weeks, although there will probably only be one or two bottles, as they reach to the more rural parts of OH for older stock.

Anyhow not a bad drive for a discount on some booze.

DoctaFun
Dec 12, 2005

Dammit Francis!
My local liquor store got a couple bottles of Sazerac rye in today so I picked one up. I've never had it but I've heard good things!

It's nice to see this shop isn't gouging on everything Buffalo Trace like I've seen elsewhere. Picked up the Sazerac for $27.99, which I think is pretty fair. Talked up the manager quite a bit and got the low down on when they get new stock every month too!

Might go back and pickup a highland Park 12 cause I've never tried it and everyone here loves it!

Weltlich
Feb 13, 2006
Grimey Drawer

emotive posted:

Jameson is up to $35 at my local shop, and I have to assume it's because they started packing them in tubes like the fancier whiskies. What the hell?

Tullamore is also climbing in price. I'm glad Powers hasn't caught on much... yet.

Expect all Scotch/Irish/Malt whiskies to jump in price this year. It's been a bad year for barley worldwide, so the price on malt has increased significantly. I wouldn't doubt it if we see a 20% increase across the board by this time next year - and even if they have a good crop next year, it'll stay there unless people start to balk at the prices on the shelf.


Nth Doctor posted:

So can you share any deets on what you've been experimenting with, for all of this barrel knowledge you have?

So almost all of the barrels in these pictures are filled with rum, not whiskey. As a brief re-cap, we're still working on the legalities of non-oak barrels with whiskey, but it breaks down to: Whiskey stops aging when it is transferred from an oak barrel into an oak staved barrel with (maple/ash/whatever) barrelheads. So I can age a whiskey for a year in an oak barrel, then for twenty in a mixed-wood barrel, and it shall never be a 21 year old whiskey. It's one year old, as far as the TTB is concerned. So, the plan is that our whiskey (which is currently in solid oak barrels) will go into mixed wood barrels sometime after the 2 to 3 year mark, so it can at least be a "straight whiskey."

I'm sure a lot of people here already know this, but I figured I'd start from the ground floor about barrels, just in case someone is just starting to get into aged spirits and is curious. Feel free to skim/skip anything that you already know.

Basic Barrel Anatomy:



(Note, at some point I'll get pictures when I visit the cooper, but this will have to do for now.)

Barrels are comprised of two basic "cuts" of wood, the staves, and the heads. The staves are the long curved pieces of wood that are arranged in a radial pattern and form the "walls" of the barrel, and the heads are the flat-cut pieces of wood that are the "ends" of the barrel. There are metal hoops that help ensure the staves stay in their bent arrangement (more on that in a moment), and a bung-hole that is drilled through a stave so liquor can be put into, or taken out of the barrel.

A barrel is made by first cutting the staves, which are sort of truncated ellipses in shape - that is to say the center of a stave is wider than the ends. When the staves are gathered together by the hoops, the middles bulge outward as the ends of the staves are drawn together. This is key to a barrels strength and it's ability to hold liquid without leaking. A barrel can be made via "hot bending" or "cold bending." In the case of hot bending, the staves are cut, then placed in a steamer and steamed until they are pliable, then they are easily bent into shape with hoops and hand-tools. With cold bending, the staves are monitored until they have the desired humidity level, then they are drawn into shape at room temperature. This is much more difficult and requires power tools or specialized machinery. The upside of cold bending is that it results in a more stable grain structure after the barrel is finished. Hot-bending makes a barrel very pliable in the short run, but it can result in warped and deformed staves, which is generally undesirable if you're trying to make a barrel.

The wood grain on the stave is very important. No knots allowed, ever. You want long, very straight grain that is clear of blemishes. My cooper is SUPER picky about his stave wood, and rejects anything that is below veneer quality. Liquid wicks along the grain, and most of the evaporative loss occurs on the end grain - that is to say the tips of the staves at either end of the barrel. The tighter, and straighter the grain, the less evaporative loss a barrel will incur over it's lifespan. For a distiller this is a huge deal. A single blemish in a stave might make a 3 to 5% difference in the loss of spirit to angel's share over a few years. Multiple blemishes only compound the issue.

The barrelheads are a little more forgiving. Their end-grain is sheltered in grooves cut into the staves, and generally not exposed to airflow, that means that even if there are blemishes in the wood, they aren't nearly as prone to absorbing, then wicking away the alcohol in the spirit. Still, the straighter, and cleaner the grain, the better.

Now, here's a fun-fact: Whiskey is generally gluten free. The distillation process denatures the protein, and it generally cannot be vaporized and drawn through the still. But! For some reason people still have gluten-reaction to some whiskies. This mystified me for a long time, until I learned this: Many coopers use what is called "cooper's dough" to line the groove that the barrelhead slots into. That dough is made of wheat-paste, and it makes a tight seal between the heads and the staves. So some cooperages have been inadvertently adding gluten back into whiskey, post-distillation. Other cooperages, such as the one I use, have started to use a pharmaceutical grade beeswax. It's a little more expensive, but no gluten, and it causes a much better seal.

You can't see it here, but the inside of the barrels are charred as well. This is what gives color and (mostly) flavor to the spirit. There's a range of char levels, generally characterized by a numerical series. Spirits barrels are generally "charred" instead of "toasted" like wine barrels - this means that they're set alight, and then timed until they're doused. It's fairly standardized - #1 Char (a little sweet, a little smokey) is a 15 second burn, #2 Char is a 30 second burn (sweeter, more spicy than smokey), #3 Char is a 35 second Burn (the most common "bourbon" char, and tastes like, well, bourbon), and #4 is a 55 second burn (lots of spice, smoke, and a little sweet). I prefer the tried-and-true 3 char for most things, but more on that later.

The surface area on the inside of the barrel is, roughly, 1/3 head and 2/3 stave. We'll revisit this factor when we talk about some of the blended-wood barrels in a few minutes.

Aging is basically movement of the liquor into and out of the wood. As the temperature increases and barometric pressure decreases, liquid is absorbed into the wood. As the temperature drops and barometric pressure increases, liquid is squeezed back into the barrel. Humidity also plays a part, with too high humidity retarding the ability of the wood to take in spirit, and too low humidity promoting accelerated evaporative loss. In general, you want between 50 to 60% humidity as an ideal, but humidity has such a strong impact on the finishing flavor that you generally take whatever you have and play it up in the finished product.



Barrel #509 is a standard 30 gallon oak barrel. It's virgin char, and if there was corn liquor in it, it would be a bourbon barrel. But it's filled with rum, so it's pretty unusual - most rum is aged in used barrels. People have commented that my rum tastes like a good bourbon, and I'll have to agree - because honestly from what I've found, the barrel is the single largest factor that controls the flavor of the finished spirit. Sure, the mash bill and spirit type will always be a factor, but after doing this for a few years, the barrel is THE thing that makes a spirit taste like that spirit. I'd be willing to bet a lobster dinner that if you put Jim Beam into Jack Daniels' barrels, and aged them in the same rick houses, you wouldn't be able to tell much of a difference.

Anyhow, #509 is a good example of why oak barrels have become the industry standard. It makes good spirits, and it doesn't leak.

Oak is amazing. It swells just right when wetted so that it prevents leakage, and it's super tight-grained so there is very little evaporative loss over the course of an aging run. There's not a damp spot on any of my oak barrels, and for that I am thankful.



Compare that to barrel #512. This is a 30 gal. barrel with oak staves, but with maple-wood heads. Maple is a pretty, very light wood without a well defined grain structure. At a #3 char, it gives a lot of toffee and butterscotch flavors to whatever spirit it is aging, as well as a sweetness that is not like maple syrup, but is more like a light maple sugar.

But, do you see that blemish? That blemish means that the fukkin' angels have a straw and are drinking straight out of my barrel. I'll lose an additional 5 to 10% of the volume from this barrel compared to a solid oak barrel. Maple, for better or worse, is a porous wood. That means that it imparts a lot of flavor, and a lot of GOOD flavor, but it also means that it wicks liquor away like nobody's business. Even at only 1/3 of the surface area, the heads on #512 will give enough flavor to that spirit in a single year for me to call it "done" and be ready to bottle, because the spirit moves in and out of the maplewood so easily. If we ever do a multi-year maple-age spirit, it's going to be expensive.



Barrel #515, has ash wood heads, giving a slight marshmallow and toasted coconut, as well as a smokiness. It's also 30 gal. in capacity. Ash is light like maple, but it has a more pronounced tiger-striping on the grain, and it's slightly less porous. It doesn't wick quite as bad as the maple head barrels do, but it does have a bad habit of wanting to warp in odd ways and open gaps at the joints. We've got to watch them like a hawk during weather changes, because variations in pressure, temperature, and humidity will cause these gaps to widen.

We've literally walked in in the morning to see a barrel dripping premium spirits on the floor, because we had a storm overnight that crashed the temperature. Once again, it's an amazing flavor that it imparts, or else we wouldn't put up with such nonsense.



This is #5, a 15 gallon cherrywood headed barrel on it's second fill. Cherrywood gives a very bourbon-y flavor with a really prolonged spice of ginger, pepper, and allspice. It just lingers and keeps evolving and I love it.

Note that the cherry-wood has almost no blemishes on it. It's nearly as tight as oak, and #5 is on it's second fill at the moment. Evaporative loss was comparable to a solid oak barrel, so we're curious to see how the flavor profile evolves on this next pass. We're planning on leaving it for at least two years, possibly longer this time.



#37, #38, and #39 are made with oak staves and black birch heads. There's a few interesting tweaks with this series of barrels. Firstly, notice how the heads look "polished" for lack of a better word. That's because they're completely coated in the beeswax to act as a sealant. My cooper made the prototype barrel, and compared to maple these things were absolute sieves. It was a long-shot to see if the beeswax would seal them, but lo and behold it did. It's amazing - they're bone dry, not a bit of seepage at all. I've asked him to start doing all our non-oak and cherry heads with a similar treatment, because it's frankly amazing.

The second interesting thing about these three barrels is not only are they birch, but they are also of differing char levels. #37 has a 3 char on the oak and a 1 char on the birchwood heads. #38 is a 3 char all around. #39 is a 5 char all around. The flavors on each are all pronounced in their difference, but also variations on a theme. And that theme is "A Mixed Berry Pie." No kidding, the nose on these are all variations on a pie made of blackberries, raspberries, and blueberries. #37 has some birch beer/root beer elements going on as well that are fantastic, and #39 has a pronounced "crust" as in fresh baked pie crust. I'm eagerly awaiting the time when I can decant these.



So these are our oldest barrels still in use, they're closing in on 2 years old now. The top is a maple head, the bottom are a cherry, and oak respectively. When I talk about the maples getting weepy, this is what I'm talking about. As the alcohol wicks out, it brings along wood sugars with it, and the outside of the head ends up caramelizing. I've scraped it off and dumped it in coffee, and it's not bad. It's kind of like smoked maple sugar flavor. We've decided to leave these going until they're 2 to just see what the losses look like on each, and how bad it will be. I'm optimistic about the cherry and oak, not so much about the maple, but I bet it will taste good.

Weltlich fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Oct 27, 2018

Inspector 34
Mar 9, 2009

DOES NOT RESPECT THE RUN

BUT THEY WILL
Man when you guys were talking about aging whiskey in different types of wood I thought it was just little 1.5L barrels aged in your hallway closet or something, didn't mean to call your profession a hobby lol

Animal-Mother
Feb 14, 2012

RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT
I'm seeing Laphroaig on sale for $40. Somehow this seems ominous.

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008






Thanks for that Weltlich, very interesting.

I'm happy to see that there are some who are willing to experiment a bit with this kind of stuff. I think the whisk(e)y industry at large could do with a bit of a shakeup. Traditions are important, and so are clear liquor laws to prevent producers from adulterating product and other types of fraud, but it does hinder innovation quite a bit. (See also the Compass Box debacle)

spankmeister fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Oct 27, 2018

Nice piece of fish
Jan 29, 2008

Ultra Carp
Fantastic post, thank you very much. I enjoy these effortposts immensely.

slothrop
Dec 7, 2006

Santa Alpha, Fox One... Gifts Incoming ~~~>===|>

Soiled Meat
Thanks for that effortpost, I really enjoy learning from what you have to say. I can visit with local distillers (whose products I have to go and sell!) and learn less than some of your posts!

good jovi
Dec 11, 2000

'm pro-dickgirl, and I VOTE!

Great post! I didn’t realize the TTB was so strict about wood. If you leave it in Oak for a while and call it “straight”, are you allowed to even mention that it spent time in other wood?

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS




That is frankly an incredible post, showing way more than even a tour tends to! Really awesome, thanks for putting in the effort. Also can I try some. :v:

Quiet Feet
Dec 14, 2009

THE HELL IS WITH THIS ASS!?





That was really cool. I like to heat the minutia behind stuff like this.

May as well say while I'm here that I needed cheap booze for a Halloween party and grabbed a bottle of Old Granddad. It's okay. :geno: I've mostly had scotch and Canadian whiskey around the house for the last few months and I miss having bourbon and rye for a little variety on occasion.

wormil
Sep 12, 2002

Hulk will smoke you!
OGD100 is the most consistent brand of bourbon I've ever drank. Even WT has some fluctuations over time but OGD is always the same. It's one of my favorites although it took a little bit to win me over. I've never had the 80 or 114 proofs.

Stultus Maximus
Dec 21, 2009

USPOL May

wormil posted:

OGD100 is the most consistent brand of bourbon I've ever drank. Even WT has some fluctuations over time but OGD is always the same. It's one of my favorites although it took a little bit to win me over. I've never had the 80 or 114 proofs.

80 is nothing special. 114 is awesome with about two drops of water.

Vox Nihili
May 28, 2008

wormil posted:

OGD100 is the most consistent brand of bourbon I've ever drank. Even WT has some fluctuations over time but OGD is always the same. It's one of my favorites although it took a little bit to win me over. I've never had the 80 or 114 proofs.

I had OGD 114 again at a Halloween party and can confirm it's still great. Strong cinnamon notes and the alcohol is pretty restrained. I recommend it wholeheartedly, particularly since you like the BiB version. Costs ~$25 here.

I enjoy it with zero (0) drops of water.

Quiet Feet
Dec 14, 2009

THE HELL IS WITH THIS ASS!?





The big hit at the Halloween party I was at this weekend was Old Grandad and cotton candy. I began the trend but the monster quickly grew out of my control and before I knew it the bottle was near empty and almost everyone had tried some. I left around midnight and I have no idea what the floor looked like in the morning.

mp5
Jan 1, 2005

Stroke of luck!

That effortpost owns, I am also just getting into Whiskey and also Whisky

Enigma
Jun 10, 2003
Raetus Deus Est.

My wife is looking for birthday gift ideas for me. Anyone have thoughts on Russell's Reserve Single Barrel ($65)?

I've tried Russell's Reserve 10 yr. ($33) and for the price it was only a marginal improvement over WT101 ($22). Is there something unique or special about the single barrel that makes it worth double the price of the 10 yr?

emotive
Dec 26, 2006

One of the shops up here just got a couple bottles of Willett 4 year Rye - Is $90 a normal price for this? Online it says $50-60, but it seems like it's pretty hard to find.

Deceptive Thinker
Oct 5, 2005

I'll rip out your optics!

Enigma posted:

My wife is looking for birthday gift ideas for me. Anyone have thoughts on Russell's Reserve Single Barrel ($65)?

I've tried Russell's Reserve 10 yr. ($33) and for the price it was only a marginal improvement over WT101 ($22). Is there something unique or special about the single barrel that makes it worth double the price of the 10 yr?

It's going to vary by bottle. Some are no better than WT101, but others are phenomenal.
If you can find one that's a store's barrel pick (even better if it's a specific "whiskey group"'s pick) and you trust their palate, it might blow you away. I have a few bottles of one from a local group that's probably my favorite whiskey from last year.

Vox Nihili
May 28, 2008

emotive posted:

One of the shops up here just got a couple bottles of Willett 4 year Rye - Is $90 a normal price for this? Online it says $50-60, but it seems like it's pretty hard to find.

$90 isn't at all normal for their regular 4-year release. I've paid $50-$55 myself. It's not a wax top, is it? If so, that's probably something else--one of their sourced batches.

Also, check the proof. The 63% batch is legendary. There are two other batches at substantially lower proof that aren't nearly as good. I got burned somewhat buying 2x bottles of a batch at ~53% and while it's a solid rye, it has a fraction of the concentrated flavor of the 63% batch.

wormil
Sep 12, 2002

Hulk will smoke you!

Enigma posted:

My wife is looking for birthday gift ideas for me. Anyone have thoughts on Russell's Reserve Single Barrel ($65)?

I've tried Russell's Reserve 10 yr. ($33) and for the price it was only a marginal improvement over WT101 ($22). Is there something unique or special about the single barrel that makes it worth double the price of the 10 yr?

I'm a big fan of WT products but they are all the same mash bill. Basically WT makes one bourbon and the different bottlings are selections and blends by the Russells. Their bourbon barns are old school and barrels age at different rates depending on their location in the barn so two '6 year' barrels can have different characters, one more mature, the other fiery. If they have a barrel that is unique or especially good they pull it and make a single barrel. I was lucky enough to take a tour while Jimmy was working and he spoke about the various barrels (positions in the barn) like they were his children.

As opposed to 4Roses who have 2 (I think) mash bills so their products are more different from each other.

Buffalo Trace has the most modern facility (not sure about Beam) even though they pretend to be old. They have a climate controlled warehouse so every barrel matures at the same rate which makes the product more consistent. If you heard the phrase 'factory made bourbon,' that would be BT.

I don't know why I wrote all that.

Deceptive Thinker
Oct 5, 2005

I'll rip out your optics!

wormil posted:

As opposed to 4Roses who have 2 (I think) mash bills so their products are more different from each other.


4 roses also has 5 different yeast strains they use for a total of 10 recipes. Yellow label uses all of them but small batch only 4 and single barrel just one
You can get single barrel store selects from 4r in every recipe though, but the price is usually a premium from the standard (and at barrel proof)

Enigma
Jun 10, 2003
Raetus Deus Est.

Deceptive Thinker posted:

It's going to vary by bottle. Some are no better than WT101, but others are phenomenal.
If you can find one that's a store's barrel pick (even better if it's a specific "whiskey group"'s pick) and you trust their palate, it might blow you away. I have a few bottles of one from a local group that's probably my favorite whiskey from last year.

Thanks, I'll probably skip then because I'd be just gambling on what's on the shelf. I don't know of or have time to join any local group, and I've yet to even see a store pick of any bourbon anywhere in my area.

wormil posted:

I'm a big fan of WT products but they are all the same mash bill. Basically WT makes one bourbon and the different bottlings are selections and blends by the Russells. Their bourbon barns are old school and barrels age at different rates depending on their location in the barn so two '6 year' barrels can have different characters, one more mature, the other fiery. If they have a barrel that is unique or especially good they pull it and make a single barrel. I was lucky enough to take a tour while Jimmy was working and he spoke about the various barrels (positions in the barn) like they were his children.

As opposed to 4Roses who have 2 (I think) mash bills so their products are more different from each other.

Buffalo Trace has the most modern facility (not sure about Beam) even though they pretend to be old. They have a climate controlled warehouse so every barrel matures at the same rate which makes the product more consistent. If you heard the phrase 'factory made bourbon,' that would be BT.

I don't know why I wrote all that.

It's actually useful info, thank you. I didn't realize WT stuck with just the one recipe.

Is 4R unique in having multiple? I really wish I could find some of the barrel picks in something other than the OBSV that is their standard single barrel offering.

wormil
Sep 12, 2002

Hulk will smoke you!

Enigma posted:

Thanks, I'll probably skip then because I'd be just gambling on what's on the shelf. I don't know of or have time to join any local group, and I've yet to even see a store pick of any bourbon anywhere in my area.


It's actually useful info, thank you. I didn't realize WT stuck with just the one recipe.

Is 4R unique in having multiple? I really wish I could find some of the barrel picks in something other than the OBSV that is their standard single barrel offering.

I think WT is unique for only having one considering their size. I think most of the bigger guys have multiples. Another thing about WT, you can smell the bourbon (angel's share) from about 1/4 mile away.

Deceptive Thinker posted:

4 roses also has 5 different yeast strains they use for a total of 10 recipes. ...

Good info. The distillery tour was closed the day I went to 4R so I never got to peak behind the curtain.

Vox Nihili
May 28, 2008

wormil posted:

I'm a big fan of WT products but they are all the same mash bill. Basically WT makes one bourbon and the different bottlings are selections and blends by the Russells. Their bourbon barns are old school and barrels age at different rates depending on their location in the barn so two '6 year' barrels can have different characters, one more mature, the other fiery. If they have a barrel that is unique or especially good they pull it and make a single barrel. I was lucky enough to take a tour while Jimmy was working and he spoke about the various barrels (positions in the barn) like they were his children.

As opposed to 4Roses who have 2 (I think) mash bills so their products are more different from each other.

Buffalo Trace has the most modern facility (not sure about Beam) even though they pretend to be old. They have a climate controlled warehouse so every barrel matures at the same rate which makes the product more consistent. If you heard the phrase 'factory made bourbon,' that would be BT.

I don't know why I wrote all that.

Well Wild Turkey also does a rye, so I guess they've technically got two mashbills.

wormil
Sep 12, 2002

Hulk will smoke you!

Vox Nihili posted:

Well Wild Turkey also does a rye, so I guess they've technically got two mashbills.

So true. I was discussing bourbon though. WT rye is okay, I buy it once in awhile if on sale but I'd rather have a high rye bourbon. Even with the price hikes, primary bourbon brands are a great value. Scotch has gone up a lot in the last half dozen years and I despise paying the inflated prices so I've cut back considerably. Like when cigars became popular and my 50 cent smokes went to a $1, then $2, then $5, within a year or two, ridiculous. gently caress that.

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slothrop
Dec 7, 2006

Santa Alpha, Fox One... Gifts Incoming ~~~>===|>

Soiled Meat

wormil posted:

I'm a big fan of WT products but they are all the same mash bill. Basically WT makes one bourbon and the different bottlings are selections and blends by the Russells. Their bourbon barns are old school and barrels age at different rates depending on their location in the barn so two '6 year' barrels can have different characters, one more mature, the other fiery. If they have a barrel that is unique or especially good they pull it and make a single barrel. I was lucky enough to take a tour while Jimmy was working and he spoke about the various barrels (positions in the barn) like they were his children.

As opposed to 4Roses who have 2 (I think) mash bills so their products are more different from each other.

Buffalo Trace has the most modern facility (not sure about Beam) even though they pretend to be old. They have a climate controlled warehouse so every barrel matures at the same rate which makes the product more consistent. If you heard the phrase 'factory made bourbon,' that would be BT.

I don't know why I wrote all that.

Buffalo Trace was actually the first distillery I ever visited, despite having talked about and sold Spirits for years.

I was pretty hype coming into it. I was very unhype coming out of it. “Factory Tour” is probably a good description too. I also get the feeling if I had tried to get a “better” tour through my industry contacts it wouldn’t have been much different. The people who took the tours were clearly just there to do that

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