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One other question: The plan is to have the breaker in the house basement and a main lug panel in the detached garage. Doesn't there need to be a disconnect at the point of entry in the garage to be NEC compliant?
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Oct 24, 2018 15:47
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Jealous Cow posted:One other question: Nope. You just need a breaker in your main panel for that subpanel, unless your local code authority has more rules in addition to the NEC.
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Oct 25, 2018 01:11
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I was helping my gf replace her bathroom light and hosed up by forgetting to pay close attention to what wires were connected where. Now I'm trying to figure out which are what and could use some advice. I didn't notice initially but it would appear there were three wires connected to the vanity light. I think one might have slipped out as I was taking the thing off and is the source of my confusion. I have two white wires and a gray wire and two sets of red wires pigtailed together. A white and gray wire go down through the bottom of the junction box along with a red pair and a white wire goes through a hole in the right side of the junction box with its own red pair. It seems like the gray wire should be neutral and then the two white wires were then hot but that doesn't make any sense with the red wires. I ignored the red wires initially but once I turned the power back on I realized that the heat light and fan switches no longer worked. The switches for all three are right next to each other. So does that mean the two whites are neutral and should be pigtailed to the lamp and the gray one is hot and should only be connected to the lamp? How can I verify this?
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Oct 27, 2018 20:24
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do you have a multimeter? if the switch is backfed those whites or grays might be hot, if you didn't keep track of how it was hooked up to start the only way to sort this out now is to test everything. also what does the instructions on the new vanity say about the electrical hookup? you don't want to make guesses or assumptions based on wire colors, you can't trust those unless you put them in yourself or you've already tested everything and know what's what. people will do all sorts of stupid poo poo, i've seen green wires used to carry power and much worse. Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Oct 27, 2018 |
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Oct 27, 2018 20:27
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:I was helping my gf replace her bathroom light and hosed up by forgetting to pay close attention to what wires were connected where. Now I'm trying to figure out which are what and could use some advice. I didn't notice initially but it would appear there were three wires connected to the vanity light. I think one might have slipped out as I was taking the thing off and is the source of my confusion. I have two white wires and a gray wire and two sets of red wires pigtailed together. A white and gray wire go down through the bottom of the junction box along with a red pair and a white wire goes through a hole in the right side of the junction box with its own red pair. It seems like the gray wire should be neutral and then the two white wires were then hot but that doesn't make any sense with the red wires. I ignored the red wires initially but once I turned the power back on I realized that the heat light and fan switches no longer worked. The switches for all three are right next to each other. So does that mean the two whites are neutral and should be pigtailed to the lamp and the gray one is hot and should only be connected to the lamp? How can I verify this? Take a picture of the box in question, and take the switch assembly out and take a picture. Do you have a way to read voltage? Figure out what is "hot" when with everything open and that should help you out tremendously. If it's too much of a nightmare labeling the wires with masking tape "1" "2" etc isn't going to make things worse. You would remove it before reassembly.
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Oct 27, 2018 20:29
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one of my co workers has a little box of various colors of nail polish and he'll use that to identify wires quickly when we diagnose things, it's an old auto mechanic's trick and it saves a lot of time. then once we figure it out and everything's going back together we'll go through with number books and labelmakers and try to help out the next poor bastard who has to unfuck the place. if you're not already in the trades and you find yourself learning one, please keep this in mind, don't let information be destroyed. write notes everywhere, label things, pretend you're the one who's going to get called back to fix poo poo when it breaks and design and build it so it's all really easy to figure out. please. seriously. it barely adds any time to the work and unless absolutely nothing ever goes wrong (lmao) it'll end up saving you or someone a huge headache and pay off in the long run. Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Oct 27, 2018 |
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Oct 27, 2018 20:39
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Mimesweeper posted:do you have a multimeter? if the switch is backfed those whites or grays might be hot, if you didn't keep track of how it was hooked up to start the only way to sort this out now is to test everything. also what does the instructions on the new vanity say about the electrical hookup? I do have a multimeter but I've never used it before. I'm just looking for voltage right? Does it seem likely that if the single white wire to the right isn't hot, then it is most likely the neutral for those red wires going to what I now assume are the heat lamp and fan? Would I check this using continuity? H110Hawk posted:Take a picture of the box in question, and take the switch assembly out and take a picture. Do you have a way to read voltage? Figure out what is "hot" when with everything open and that should help you out tremendously. If it's too much of a nightmare labeling the wires with masking tape "1" "2" etc isn't going to make things worse. You would remove it before reassembly. I'm gonna do this too
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Oct 27, 2018 21:09
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:I do have a multimeter but I've never used it before. I'm just looking for voltage right? Does it seem likely that if the single white wire to the right isn't hot, then it is most likely the neutral for those red wires going to what I now assume are the heat lamp and fan? Would I check this using continuity? what you want to do is see what wires behind the vanity go hot when you turn on and off the switches. that'll make it very easy to decide what to hook up, if you understand the vanity connections, because you'll know what you want each switch to do and it's just a matter of hooking the wires up that way. it's extremely likely that it's all just one circuit and everything shares one neutral and there's several switch legs that need to be paired up correctly.
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Oct 27, 2018 21:48
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Mimesweeper posted:what you want to do is see what wires behind the vanity go hot when you turn on and off the switches. that'll make it very easy to decide what to hook up, if you understand the vanity connections, because you'll know what you want each switch to do and it's just a matter of hooking the wires up that way. it's extremely likely that it's all just one circuit and everything shares one neutral and there's several switch legs that need to be paired up correctly. Ok! I think I have a better idea of what I'm dealing with. Thanks a bunch for your help.
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Oct 27, 2018 22:09
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:I do have a multimeter but I've never used it before. I'm just looking for voltage right? Does it seem likely that if the single white wire to the right isn't hot, then it is most likely the neutral for those red wires going to what I now assume are the heat lamp and fan? Would I check this using continuity? also i forgot to mention but yes, if one of the white wires is reading 0 volts with all the switches turned on that's your neutral. if it was tied to other white or gray wires that also read 0 they should remain tied together and either tail out for your vanity neutral or just wire nut it all together. anyway it sounds like you're off and running but hit us up if you run into any problems. Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Oct 27, 2018 |
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Oct 27, 2018 22:59
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If you interact with wires or pipes for any reason make this and the appropriate 3/4" black on white vinyl label tape your new best friend. Tat rhrino tape is as durable and sticky as good electrical tape and that model will print your label text a dozen times in 8pt font perpendicular to the tape so you can tight wrap it on the wire and read it clearly without loose tabs sticking out all over the place, like this: https://www.amazon.com/DYMO-RHINO-Label-Maker-1801611/dp/B005MR516Y They're legible on anything all the way down to 18AWG MTW shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Oct 28, 2018 |
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Oct 28, 2018 01:14
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shame on an IGA posted:If you interact with wires or pipes for any reason make this and the appropriate 3/4" black on white vinyl label tape your new best friend. Tat rhrino tape is as durable and sticky as good electrical tape and that model will print your label text a dozen times in 8pt font perpendicular to the tape so you can tight wrap it on the wire and read it clearly without loose tabs sticking out all over the place, like this: hell yeah, this is what i'm talkin about. label your poo poo
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Oct 28, 2018 01:30
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Mimesweeper posted:also i forgot to mention but yes, if one of the white wires is reading 0 volts with all the switches turned on that's your neutral. if it was tied to other white or gray wires that also read 0 they should remain tied together and either tail out for your vanity neutral or just wire nut it all together. anyway it sounds like you're off and running but hit us up if you run into any problems. So I’m back over here and I think I’ve found the hot wire but when I check it against what I assume is the neutral going to the heat lamp and fan it’s also registering voltage. Shouldn’t only one of what I think is the neutral register voltage with the hot wire? When I check both neutrals together I get 0. This is with only the vanity switch on, neither of the heat lamp or fan switches. Is this correct?
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Oct 28, 2018 01:52
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:So I’m back over here and I think I’ve found the hot wire but when I check it against what I assume is the neutral going to the heat lamp and fan it’s also registering voltage. Shouldn’t only one of what I think is the neutral register voltage with the hot wire? When I check both neutrals together I get 0. This is with only the vanity switch on, neither of the heat lamp or fan switches. Is this correct? if there's 0 to 0 across the wires you think are neutrals and voltage-0 between what should be hot and neutral everything is fine. the neutral is probably just passing in and out of that box and needs to be tied through besides hooking up your light. neutral wires all go back to 0 at the panel so you would see voltage from any hot wire to any neutral wire. now if you were seeing volts between the neutrals i would be confused. make sure to check it with all the switches on, it would be weird but not impossible for someone to have used one of those white wires as a hot switch leg. if that's the case only the one that stays 0 is actually a neutral Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Oct 28, 2018 |
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Oct 28, 2018 02:27
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:So I’m back over here and I think I’ve found the hot wire but when I check it against what I assume is the neutral going to the heat lamp and fan it’s also registering voltage. Shouldn’t only one of what I think is the neutral register voltage with the hot wire? When I check both neutrals together I get 0. This is with only the vanity switch on, neither of the heat lamp or fan switches. Is this correct? Please please please draw a picture.
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Oct 28, 2018 02:38
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Mimesweeper posted:if there's 0 to 0 across the wires you think are neutrals and voltage-0 between what should be hot and neutral everything is fine. the neutral is probably just passing in and out of that box and needs to be tied through besides hooking up your light. neutral wires all go back to 0 at the panel so you would see voltage from any hot wire to any neutral wire. So, I turned all the switches on and the two neutrals became energized which sounds like what you were talking about? How would I wire that then? A picture! https://i.imgur.com/xr5PJc1
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Oct 28, 2018 03:04
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I'm setting up a bunch of Halloween decorations and lights, and I've run into a couple spots where I'm having some plug incompatibilities, and wanna make sure I'm not doing anything dangerous. I have two light up skulls which have polarized plugs, and thus won't plug into the nearby non-polarized light strings. So, I grabbed a 3-way grounded (but non-polarized on the male end) splitter, broke off the ground tab, and used that as an adapter. Since none of the lights involved have a ground wire anyway, there shouldn't be any issue with that, right? Why do xmas lights use non-polarized plugs anyways? And is there any particular reason these skulls, which are literally just a single small light bulb in a plastic skull, would use polarized plugs instead?
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Oct 28, 2018 03:37
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:So, I turned all the switches on and the two neutrals became energized which sounds like what you were talking about? How would I wire that then? Ok so I took off the wall switch and got some more info. In that junction box I have a black and white wire coming in with the white wire pigtailed to another white wire that goes back out. The black wire goes to a pigtail that goes to the switch that does the vanity light and the double switch for the heat lamp and fan. The vanity switch has a gray wire that goes down with that first white wire and the two red wires that are attached to the double switch so I guess that would make them the neutrals? Which makes the single white wire in the vanity light box that I thought was neutral but got hot with the double switches on actually hot? Which means it needs to pig tail with the gray one and the hot on the vanity light and the other white neutral just pigtails with the vanity light neutral? https://i.imgur.com/fImIZhN not sure how well you’ll be able to see Teabag Dome Scandal fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Oct 28, 2018 |
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Oct 28, 2018 03:54
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Slugworth posted:Why do xmas lights use non-polarized plugs anyways? And is there any particular reason these skulls, which are literally just a single small light bulb in a plastic skull, would use polarized plugs instead? Generally, the theory with single light bulbs and polarized plugs is to ensure that the socket has the neutral line connected to the threaded socket part and the hot is on the little tab on the bottom. This is meant to help prevent you from touching the hot, because you would literally have to stick your finger in the light socket to do so. The outside metal socket is far more likely to have accidental contact if the bulb doesn't block it completely, or if you were changing it or mucking around. With a typical Xmas light strand, the bulbs are wired in series (sometimes multiple series depending on length), so an individual bulb only has a few volts across it. This doesn't pose the same shock hazard as a single bulb/socket getting the full 120v, not to mention the fact that Xmas strand bulbs have contacts that are recessed and very difficult to touch accidentally. The bigger issue here would potentially be trying to pull more power from the end of the strand's outlet than it was designed to handle. I highly doubt this is the case with a small, single bulb, but it's not necessarily a good idea to try. It's also considered a bad idea to have a ghetto adapter chain, because each socket-plug mating increases the risk of poor contact leading to arcing or excessive heat. Especially if these devices are outside and exposed to weather/temperature shifts. Given a small enough load, you're probably 98% likely to be perfectly fine, but running a separate, good-quality, outdoor-rated extension cord is a much safer option.
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Oct 28, 2018 05:23
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:Ok so I took off the wall switch and got some more info. In that junction box I have a black and white wire coming in with the white wire pigtailed to another white wire that goes back out. The black wire goes to a pigtail that goes to the switch that does the vanity light and the double switch for the heat lamp and fan. The vanity switch has a gray wire that goes down with that first white wire and the two red wires that are attached to the double switch so I guess that would make them the neutrals? Which makes the single white wire in the vanity light box that I thought was neutral but got hot with the double switches on actually hot? Which means it needs to pig tail with the gray one and the hot on the vanity light and the other white neutral just pigtails with the vanity light neutral? No, the red wires wouldn't be neutrals, those are probably the two switch legs off the double switch. It's always difficult to talk about this stuff, I can only think about it properly when I'm there touching it and able to poke around myself. The extra info you posted is helpful but let's step back for a second because now I have no idea what to tell you. So the situation is, you have the 2-gang switch box with a stacked double switch and a single switch. You had a vanity light you are replacing. Did all three of those switches affect the vanity light, or do some of them do other things and only one switch operated the vanity, or what? We'll figure this out and get you sorted, just remember next time to pay attention to how stuff is put together before you start taking it apart :v it's a lesson we've all learned the hard way so no worries.
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Oct 28, 2018 13:46
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B-Nasty posted:Generally, the theory with single light bulbs and polarized plugs is to ensure that the socket has the neutral line connected to the threaded socket part and the hot is on the little tab on the bottom. This is meant to help prevent you from touching the hot, because you would literally have to stick your finger in the light socket to do so. The outside metal socket is far more likely to have accidental contact if the bulb doesn't block it completely, or if you were changing it or mucking around.
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Oct 28, 2018 14:32
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Slugworth posted:In regards to pulling too much power through the lights though, wouldn't the fuses in the light strand blow before anything got dangerous? I ask because I do have other stuff with non-polarized plugs attached to light strings. Yeah, I was going to mention that most of those strings now have teeny tiny fuses in the plug end to protect against drawing too much current. I had to look it up, but UL recommends a maximum of 210 watts total for a chain of single strings. For the old school incandescent bulbs, that's about 5 strings of 100 bulbs each. For the LED strings, it's about 10X that.
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Oct 28, 2018 16:40
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Mimesweeper posted:No, the red wires wouldn't be neutrals, those are probably the two switch legs off the double switch. It's always difficult to talk about this stuff, I can only think about it properly when I'm there touching it and able to poke around myself. I really appreciate the help. I’m sure someone that knows more would be able to touch it and know how it worked previously pretty easily. The vanity switch ONLY affected the vanity light, heat lamp switch only affected heat lamp and same with the fan. All three worked independently of each other. None needed to be on or off to work. Since a single hot wire went into the two switch that turned into two reds, those can be considered hot right? What would a multimeter look like if you touched two hot wires? I’m 99% certain that gray wire is hot and the white that came with it is neutral. The single white that left the vanity light junction box with the reds only got hot when the switches were on for the red wires which I guess would make sense if that were the neutral for it and I touched another neutral right? It’s just competing the circuit?
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Oct 28, 2018 17:39
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:I really appreciate the help. I’m sure someone that knows more would be able to touch it and know how it worked previously pretty easily. The vanity switch ONLY affected the vanity light, heat lamp switch only affected heat lamp and same with the fan. All three worked independently of each other. None needed to be on or off to work. Since a single hot wire went into the two switch that turned into two reds, those can be considered hot right? reading voltage across two hot wires would say 0 if they're on the same phase. check the voltage to the ground wire or the metal box to get a proper reading. voltage is a difference in potential so if you have two hot wires at the same potential you won't see any voltage between them. its sounding like those white wires are getting hot when you turn on the no-longer functioning fan and heat lamp because those are the neutrals for those devices and you've broken the circuit there by taking the vanity all apart. there's at least one wire in the vanity that stays at 0 right? i think the white wires that get hot when you turn on the now-busted fan and heatlamp are the neutrals returning from those devices and need to be tied into the neutral (the wire that's always 0) in the vanity box. then whatever wire gets hot when you hit the vanity switch, hook that up to the vanity. if this still doesn't make sense let's try again 
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Oct 28, 2018 17:51
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:The single white that left the vanity light junction box with the reds only got hot when the switches were on for the red wires which I guess would make sense if that were the neutral for it and I touched another neutral right? It’s just competing the circuit? also I almost forgot to specifically answer this but yes, that's correct. if you disconnect neutrals on something that's turned on one side will appear "hot" because now the circuit is open and the voltage has nowhere to go
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Oct 28, 2018 18:03
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Little cross post from the coffee thread about my ancient espresso machine: the heating element in our vintage La Cimbali Jr just bit the dust. I replaced it shortly after we acquired the machine for the same reason about 2 years ago. I've already ordered a replacement element but I got thinking today what is the difference between the element like this: https://www.espressoparts.com/la-ci...heating-element And something like this: https://m.alibaba.com/amp/product/60111404256.html Besides the obvious mounting flange. Would it be possible to press the old copper heating element out of the flange and press in a stainless steel one with similar specs?
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Oct 28, 2018 18:14
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Mimesweeper posted:reading voltage across two hot wires would say 0 if they're on the same phase. check the voltage to the ground wire or the metal box to get a proper reading. voltage is a difference in potential so if you have two hot wires at the same potential you won't see any voltage between them. This seems all correct except there is only one neutral returning from the heat lamp and fan. That would just mean the furthest one started the neutral line and that line got pigtailed back to the next device neutral and to a new lead which appears back in the vanity box right? And that’s an acceptable way to chain neutrals to a single return line? Edit: hooked up the white return from the heat lamp/fan to the neutral on the light and the other white line heading back towards the switch gang box and the gray wire to the hot lead on the lamp and everything seems to work as it did before! Thanks so much for making sure I don’t kill myself or set my gfs condo on fire! Teabag Dome Scandal fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Oct 28, 2018 |
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Oct 28, 2018 18:25
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:This seems all correct except there is only one neutral returning from the heat lamp and fan. That would just mean the furthest one started the neutral line and that line got pigtailed back to the next device neutral and to a new lead which appears back in the vanity box right? And that’s an acceptable way to chain neutrals to a single return line? Yes, sounds like you understand things now, and the results prove it! You're welcome, glad I could help Make sure all the connections are nice and solid or that whole fire thing might still eventually sneak up on you.
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Oct 28, 2018 19:00
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Crossposting from the crappy construction threadBrute Squad posted:I'm helping my little sister by installing some additional under cabinet lighting in her brand-new kitchen. She's got one 120v light installed, and I'm daisy-chaining a couple more off it. Pretty simple, right? Go to the breaker panel and see 4 labeled kitchen circuits. She has 2 20A "kitchen GFI" circuits, a 20A fridge circuit, and then the dishwasher, garbage disposal, and lights on a single 15A. Odd, but not too bad. Flip off the lights circuit and go back to plug in my work light. Doesn't work. Is this a code violation, or am I just crazy? 2 installed kitchen appliances, 2 kitchen outlets, and lighting on 1 15A circuit?
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Oct 30, 2018 17:46
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Afaik there's no code violation as long as everything on that 15A circuit is setup correctly, as in not up-amped somehow. My 1950 house has 4 15-Amp fuses for the whole thing and one of those is the entire kitchen. Granted my stove is gas, but that does also include a washing machine. I haven't blown a fuse yet though  I think modern appliances and lighting are pretty drat effecient so it's not a huge concern these days.
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Oct 30, 2018 22:47
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Unless it's grandfathered somehow no, the countertop must be served by at least two independent 20A GFCI circuits. The reasoning is that's the place where you're likely to have a bunch of 1500w resistance heating loads going at the same time: Start the coffee, pop in some toast, add a griddle or a stand mixer on top of that on one 15A branch and you're gonna have a bad time. shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Oct 31, 2018 |
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Oct 31, 2018 00:13
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I need some advice on how to change a switched outlet to something I can setup for hardwired under cabinet lights. I just bought a new house, and I had the builder put 2 switched outlets inside the kitchen cabinets*. One inside each bank of cabinets (left/right sides). Inside each bank of cabinets is your normal 15 amp duplex outlet, that is controlled by a switch. All the under cabinet lighting I've been interested in is hardwired only. There is 1 set I could use that is plug in, but I'd also like to swap the switch for a dimmer switch so I can control the brightness. I'm not sure how the dimmer switch would affect the regular outlet. I'm comfortable with basic electrical wiring. Replacing switches, outlets, light fixtures, fans, etc no problem. I'm not sure how to safely and properly turn the in-cabinet outlets into something I can wire into a junction box for led lighting though. I'm guessing I need to somehow extend the wiring from the box in a cable to the junction box, but just not sure how to do it. I don't really want to burn the house down either. I haven't been able to find the solution online, can someone point me in the right direction? This is what I'm looking to install. https://www.amazon.com/GE-Junction-Linkable-Fixtures-32612/dp/B001ET6DCK I was thinking if I remove the duplex outlet and replace it with a faceplate with a conduit hole in it, buy a short piece of conduit and then extend the wiring to the junction box that would work. Unclear on how to properly do that and the materials needed though. *their cost for undercabinet lights from their electrician was ridiculous and couldn't give me what I was looking for color temp wise or technology wise. I want daylight LED, they offered warm halogen.
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Oct 31, 2018 18:09
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Why not buy a couple cheap $1 extension cables, cutoff the outlet end, then wire up those to your led power supplies? Turn your hardwire only ones into pluggable ones? Whether the outlet is there or not isn't going to affect how the dimmers work, what will matter is the power supply for the led lights. If it isn't designed to work with dimmers if will keep trying to put out the same voltage until it can't and then just shutoff completely.
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Oct 31, 2018 18:46
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Is that safe/legal/up to code? That seemed like the easiest solution, but you know... want to do it right and not burn my new house down. If it's that easy, I'm good to go then.
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Oct 31, 2018 18:48
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As long as the cord you buy is rated to carry the amperage of the device you are wiring it into it's plenty safe. As far as code goes, I could be wrong (not an electrician), but if it isn't wired directly into the circuit I think it counts as a device or appliance like a lamp or vacuum cleaner. Consider your typical over the range microwave: it's screwed to the wall & cabinets, plugged into an outlet inside a cabinet, installed by a non-electrician, all just like your lights. And your led's will be drawing far less power than 1100 watts to boot.
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Oct 31, 2018 19:31
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skipdogg posted:Is that safe/legal/up to code? That seemed like the easiest solution, but you know... want to do it right and not burn my new house down. If it's that easy, I'm good to go then. Do the lights already have a wire coming out of them? If so, something like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-15-Amp-125-Volt-Light-Duty-Plug-Black-101-EP/301304861 is a better idea than wire-nutting a chopped extension cord.
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Oct 31, 2018 19:56
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I have to rethink things. The junction box is for converting plug in fixtures to direct wire, and from there you can use the linking cables for additional fixtures. The actual direct wire fixtures that can be dimmed you have to run wiring into and out of. Have to figure out how important dimming is I guess. I was confused and thought the DW fixtures also had the linking cables, but doesn't look like it
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Oct 31, 2018 20:29
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Nevets posted:As long as the cord you buy is rated to carry the amperage of the device you are wiring it into it's plenty safe. As far as code goes, I could be wrong (not an electrician), but if it isn't wired directly into the circuit I think it counts as a device or appliance like a lamp or vacuum cleaner. You are correct. The rules are much more relaxed for plug in appliances. Also, you can buy replacement cords with molded plugs at any hardware store, no need to chop up existing stuff.
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Oct 31, 2018 23:02
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The reason I suggested chopping up an extension cord is that for uses like this replacement appliance plugs usually cost 2x as much 
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Oct 31, 2018 23:37
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I've got some cheap photography lights with what appears to be a symmetrical, 2 blade, ungrounded plug. I'm in the UK. The lights are marked 110 - 240v, 50/60Hz, the plug is marked 6A, 250v. Am I ok to cut this plug off and fit a UK type G plug with a 6A fuse, connecting only the live and neutral pins?
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Nov 1, 2018 15:21
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