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Honestly I think you guys are reacting a bit extreme to this. Ann had no issues with any of this, until the Former Noble decided to get really creepy, upon which she rightfully called him out. This is nothing worth going "gently caress this game" over.
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Oct 30, 2018 18:17
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In a vacuum sure but it fits a really obnoxious pattern in this game's writing of forcing almost every named female character to constantly face threats of sexual assault. As has been pointed out it would have been fine if the scene was more focused on Ann taking control of her sexuality but really it's just her fumbling through an awkward situation forced on her by Ryuji, followed by yet another attempted sexual assault. At which point the group just fights the guy anyway so why did we even need to have this uncomfortable scene that served no purpose other than to get the girls back into swimsuits for a couple minutes again? e. Oh and the game once again referenced the Yusuke blackmailing Ann to strip for him plot, and once again played it for a cheap laugh when it deserves nothing of the sort.
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Oct 30, 2018 18:45
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welp, do we hate the game now? do we call off the Let’s Play? Where do we go from here?
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Oct 30, 2018 19:02
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I don't hate this game, it's just so easy to make fun of
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Oct 30, 2018 19:11
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Even with all the scripting issues, this game would be so much better if they dropped the stupid fanservice - the "Teehee we're forcing girls into being sexy" is extremely counter to the game's themes and it's loving exhausting all the Party Confidants and almost half the non-party female confidants have the thread of Sexual Peril (Makoto's friend and Kawakami almost getting forced into Prostitution, Ann's arc, Futaba's friend being used for child porn, etc), while the guys have a large variety of issues.
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Oct 30, 2018 19:24
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Yeah I've played through this game twice so I can't say that I hate it, in fact I quite enjoy it, but the writing definitely has some very annoying flaws.
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Oct 30, 2018 19:31
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Sydin posted:Yeah I've played through this game twice so I can't say that I hate it, in fact I quite enjoy it, but the writing definitely has some very annoying flaws. This times a thousand. What makes it worse is that some relatively easy edits would do a lot to help with the story.
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Oct 30, 2018 19:34
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How long were they working on this game again?
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Oct 30, 2018 19:35
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Sydin posted:In a vacuum sure but it fits a really obnoxious pattern in this game's writing of forcing almost every named female character to constantly face threats of sexual assault. There was no threat of Sexual assault given that she right away told him off (Then beat him up.) None of this was a big deal. Nor was it that uncomfortable. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Oct 30, 2018 |
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Oct 30, 2018 19:50
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it was originally suppose to be out in 2014 (announced in 2013), and according to wiki it was first getting developed in 2008 around the same time as Catherine - which is the other game Hashino was working on. So this game's been in development for eight years.
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Oct 30, 2018 19:52
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Arist posted:I don't hate this game, it's just so easy to make fun of Sydin posted:I quite enjoy it, but the writing definitely has some very annoying flaws. 
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Oct 30, 2018 20:09
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MonsterEnvy posted:Honestly I think you guys are reacting a bit extreme to this. Ann had no issues with any of this, until the Former Noble decided to get really creepy, upon which she rightfully called him out. Making your friends take part in a honeypot op without getting an okay from them first is bad and tone-deaf, but we already knew the game was like this. When one of those friends is younger than the rest and portrayed as more sheltered than the rest of the group, and the writer-approved line of thought is not "poo poo, what if this guy is a pedophile?" but "we should include our younger friend in case this guy is a pedophile" it crosses a whole new line.
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Oct 30, 2018 20:40
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MonsterEnvy posted:There was no threat of Sexual assault given that she right away told him off (Then beat him up.) If a guy walked up to me, grabbed me by the arm, and suggested that I go with him to try on swimsuits, then it would be a threat, even if I immediately responded by suplexing him straight through a table. A game can still be good while having things be gross about it. This is pretty gross.
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Oct 31, 2018 01:49
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Robindaybird posted:it was originally suppose to be out in 2014 (announced in 2013), and according to wiki it was first getting developed in 2008 around the same time as Catherine - which is the other game Hashino was working on. It's probably been through multiple major rewrites though, so it's not like they've been fine tuning the dialog for eight years.
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Oct 31, 2018 01:52
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MonsterEnvy posted:There was no threat of Sexual assault given that she right away told him off (Then beat him up.) It is still a threat of sexual assault even if she did beat him up. That's like saying there was no threat of murder just because you managed to push Michael Myers off the balcony.
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Oct 31, 2018 02:01
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Honestly the only good part of that scene is Haru being sad that she's being called a commoner.
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Oct 31, 2018 02:26
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Grapplejack posted:Honestly the only good part of that scene is Haru being sad that she's being called a commoner. The fact that Haru clearly appreciates her privilege adds a really nice and humanizing aspect to her character
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Oct 31, 2018 03:49
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HIJK posted:welp, do we hate the game now? I always have, but this scene just makes me feel more justified for it.
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Oct 31, 2018 04:38
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This scene was redeemable. Between Ryuji's antics, Yusuke's callback, and Futaba's participation, though - drat near the worst setup possible. It's tasteless in isolation and just bad writing in the game's context, but that's not really anything new for this game.
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Oct 31, 2018 07:20
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Most of these “Female party members try to use sex appeal as a weapon” scenes would work better (not perfectly, mind, but better) if Ann and the other girls proposed the plans, or even if Ryuji asked and they explicitly said yes Instead they have no agency, following the plans of their horny teen boy pals while obviously uncomfortable with being pressured into it, as we cut from thinking over the plan to executing it for the sake of, and I mean this extremely sarcastically, “comedy”
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Oct 31, 2018 14:26
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I'm so angry at this video game I bought 10 copies just to post a video of me burning them on my IG account in protest.
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Oct 31, 2018 15:16
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Is it considered conceited that people are judging a Japanese game with a western sense of morality and mindset?
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Oct 31, 2018 15:46
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cdyoung posted:Is it considered conceited that people are judging a Japanese game with a western sense of morality and mindset? They could simply not localize and sell it here in the west if they didn't want criticism. So no, it's a cultural work and since we apes started painting on cave walls there's been a right to be a critic. Alternate answer: Death of the Author baby.
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Oct 31, 2018 16:02
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I would really, really watch out with making such declarative statements regarding "western morality" and Japanese culture. It implies that Persona 5 is indicative of a widespread cultural mindset, which is untrue-there is, as always, a spectrum of human experience regarding every point raised- and also carries the unsavory implication that only "westerners", so called, care about things like the objectification of women. But yeah, this is not a good scene, and this is just one more thing that makes this a "problematic fave," on several levels.
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Oct 31, 2018 16:11
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This is a game for horny teenagers, I don't think it's indicative of some weird shibboleth or whatever in regards to Japanese culture at large.
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Oct 31, 2018 16:23
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I mean, yeah, I LOVE P5, but really you have way to many "women being sexually abused" storylines: 1) Ann being Weinsteined by Kamoshida (as well as her best friend) 2) Kawakami being forced into "prostitution" 3) Haru being sold into marriage (and the strong insinuation of a super rapey husband at that) 4) Futaba's friend being made to take pictures by her parents 5) Yusuke trying to pressure Ann into nude modeling. 6) And not to mention the sleezy mementos missions 7) Makoto and Ann having to prostitute themselves for Kaneshiro if you fail that palace (Forgot about this one, thanks Oxxidation) (I don't think I mentioned anything not already covered in the LP, I spoiled this on the off chance) And I am sure there are more examples, these are all I remember off the top of my head. Arist posted:This is a game for horny teenagers, I don't think it's indicative of some weird shibboleth or whatever in regards to Japanese culture at large. truth, besides....have you seen American media, we are just as bad about this (can't speak for the Europeans and other nationalities.......but I assume poo poo like this is relatively prevalent elsewhere) Madmarker fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Oct 31, 2018 |
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Oct 31, 2018 16:24
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don't forget what happens if you fail to complete kaneshiro's palace in time, which is probably the most egregious of the lot
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Oct 31, 2018 16:33
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Oxxidation posted:don't forget what happens if you fail to complete kaneshiro's palace in time, which is probably the most egregious of the lot I had completely forgotten that poo poo...christ
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Oct 31, 2018 16:34
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I mean I was kinda willing to close one eye and generally look at the egregious treatment of female party members from the "it's because the game is targeted at horny teenagers" angle, but making the young teen girl wear a swimsuit to help sweet-talk a potential pedophile is a gross low point that can't be covered by the "horny teenagers" excuse. It crosses over from mere objectification into exploitation. I'm personally not going as far as to say I "hate" the game, since I don't think it's consciously being malicious and it seems more extremely ignorant than anything, but that doesn't mean it should be let off the hook. If P5 was that kinda sexist friend that you put up with since he's a nice guy to get along with otherwise, this is the kind of remark that makes you go "okay not cool, dude", smack him upside the head, and potentially start avoiding him if he doesn't stop doing it.
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Oct 31, 2018 16:55
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In the context of the overall game and in particular this dungeon though, this is framed as "Ann's time to shine" because as we'll see going forward each of these recommendation letters focuses on a different party member. Since Ann's Phantom Thief Archetype is supposedly the "Femme Fatale" she gets the scene where she seduces the villain by pretending to be British royalty. Fine, whatever. The problem being entire that she has no agency in this matter, and in fact has never been a Femme Fatale for the entire game. That's a pretty big problem, especially for a scene which is supposed to emphasize Ann's talents. Basically it's saying "you're only good for being sexy against your will."
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Oct 31, 2018 17:15
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Clarste posted:In the context of the overall game and in particular this dungeon though, this is framed as "Ann's time to shine" because as we'll see going forward each of these recommendation letters focuses on a different party member. Since Ann's Phantom Thief Archetype is supposedly the "Femme Fatale" she gets the scene where she seduces the villain by pretending to be British royalty. Fine, whatever. yeah that's the huge thing - she doesn't get a say in it until after Ryuji springs the plan on her, if she came up with the plan herself (and exclude Futaba) it would've been way less skeevy. And all the previous fanservice bits except for the beach episode was pretty much against Ann's will.
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Oct 31, 2018 17:25
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Arist posted:This is a game for horny teenagers, I don't think it's indicative of some weird shibboleth or whatever in regards to Japanese culture at large. Japan is absolutely hosed when it comes to a whole host of cultural elements, even more so than most other nations (but then again, the same is rightly said about yanks) cdyoung posted:Is it considered conceited that people are judging a Japanese game with a western sense of morality and mindset?
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Oct 31, 2018 17:43
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Madmarker posted:I mean, yeah, I LOVE P5, but really you have way to many "women being sexually abused" storylines: Is there, in fact, even a single named female character across the entire game who's story doesn't involve being sexually abused in one way or another? About the only one I can come up with is Hifumi. And I can't buy it just being the whole Japan/western sensibilities thing, since it's repeatedly pointed to by the game as being a shameful, terrible thing and then the 'good guys' do it anyway.
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Oct 31, 2018 18:38
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Tempest_56 posted:Is there, in fact, even a single named female character across the entire game who's story doesn't involve being sexually abused in one way or another? About the only one I can come up with is Hifumi. Sae faces some issues with a glass ceiling........but I don't recall any sexual abuse, implied or otherwise, in her narrative.
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Oct 31, 2018 18:55
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Ohya and Chihaya don't have it, though I'm skeptical on the latter as many cults like the one she's entangled with do inevitable evolve to leaders forcing their followers to have sex, so that would've been inevitable, while Ohya has it's own can of worms.
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Oct 31, 2018 18:56
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Madmarker posted:Sae faces some issues with a glass ceiling........but I don't recall any sexual abuse, implied or otherwise, in her narrative. Kaneshiro makes some offhand remarks about forcing Sae into prostitution along with Makoto to pay off the debt, IIRC. Nothing in Sae's actual storyline has it though. Robindaybird posted:Ohya and Chihaya don't have it Takemi doesn't either, evil hospital dude just wanted her to fail because he was jealous of her superior medical skills.
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Oct 31, 2018 19:02
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you, a sheeple: I don't like when game companies endlessly rehash old Benny Hill jokes with no thought for climate or context me, the world genius: actually it is Insanely Good when this happens, for the following reasons:
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Oct 31, 2018 19:12
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I still believe Yusuke's thing about having Ann Pose nude, was about humiliation as opposed to sex. He never shows even the slightest interest in any women in the story after that. He seems almost asexual if anything, but it may also be that he isn't written to act on those impulses.
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Nov 1, 2018 01:58
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mastersord posted:I still believe Yusuke's thing about having Ann Pose nude, was about humiliation as opposed to sex. He never shows even the slightest interest in any women in the story after that. He seems almost asexual if anything, but it may also be that he isn't written to act on those impulses. On a character level I agree with you but on a meta-level I think there was definitely a sexual-connotation to the intended humor
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Nov 1, 2018 02:03
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mastersord posted:I still believe Yusuke's thing about having Ann Pose nude, was about humiliation as opposed to sex. He never shows even the slightest interest in any women in the story after that. He seems almost asexual if anything, but it may also be that he isn't written to act on those impulses. I don't think it was about humiliation or sex from Yusuke's point of view. He literally wanted to paint her nude because he thought it would result in a good painting. Artists do paint nude models for a variety of legitimate reasons. The blackmail was the part that made it incredibly skeezy. And the way the rest of the party reacted to it.
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Nov 1, 2018 02:19
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