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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:You gotta read the article you just hastily googled. It doesn't say that at all. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:what an awful lot of characters to type out "nuh-uh"
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Nov 1, 2018 01:56
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If y'all are out of substantive things to say on the subject, maybe you should stop. You do not, in fact, have to 
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Nov 1, 2018 01:58
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Nvm
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Nov 1, 2018 01:59
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Okay, let's play a game. You don't post in this thread until you find a video or article of Joe Biden claiming that conducting an investigation would be the wrong movie, and is still the wrong move in 2018, because it would have been un-decorous to Clarence Thomas. Under this scenario, how long do you think it would be before you posted again? There are many real things to criticize. What is the point of making fake things to criticize and directing your energy there?
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Nov 1, 2018 01:59
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Brony Car posted:Bit more cynical and less horrific at the same time. Basically the politics of scuttling a black man's nomination after the retirement of Thurgood Marshall based on how sexual harassment allegations were viewed in the late 1980s and early 1990s made it more expedient to not investigate Anita Hill's allegations as much as they should have been. You left out the part where Biden was serving as chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee at the time, thus holding control over witnesses & procedures. Also the part where Anita Hill to this day hasn't received an apology from Biden and is still angry with him.
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Nov 1, 2018 02:03
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You guys started talking about Anita Hill, which is also valid, but I was actually referring to a young Biden opposing busing. The sum of efforts like his are what lead to our current status quo where de facto segregation remains the norm.
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Nov 1, 2018 02:23
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The Muppets On PCP posted:yeah, the dem primaries are hilariously frontloaded 
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Nov 1, 2018 02:40
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hey everyone let's just all agree that biden sucks rear end and deserves no place in the present day democratic party
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Nov 1, 2018 02:50
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Everyone who is willing to identify themselves as a Democrat sucks rear end and deserves no place in a hypothetical not-awful Democratic Party Truly a philosophical paradox for the ages
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Nov 1, 2018 02:52
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Paracaidas posted:Policy being distinct from "identity issues" is
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Nov 1, 2018 03:16
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, even if that wasn't the intent.
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Hellblazer187 posted:lol who in this thread thinks Biden is a savior? Let me revise that savior was a bit too much, electable is more like it.
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Nov 1, 2018 03:29
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There's dozens of Democrats that are "electable" in 2020, and most of them are better than Joe Biden on the issues.
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Nov 1, 2018 03:31
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reminder shitbirds the penalty in this thread for bad posts is a one week probe
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Nov 1, 2018 05:58
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Lightning Knight posted:There's dozens of Democrats that are "electable" in 2020, Thats the problem, the sooner the dozen become one or two the better. Trumps got a huge head start on campaigning versus the dems that are competing for facetime. . Whats scary is the longer the inter dem battle lasts the better the incumbent advantage becomes a magnitude more important. The dems being over voiced is a huge problem that i fear will threaten our democracy, not because the voices arent valid, but because the message is so vast its not as great as the TRADE BAD GREAT DEALS message We need a dem that campaigns on UBI SPHC and massive infrastructure spending,
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Nov 1, 2018 07:16
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QuoProQuid posted:Given 2016, my sense is that most everyone will stay in the race until the first debate and then you'll see mass campaign die-off. Love the idea of round robin one on one debates, hell with enough candidates you could have one every weekend for 2 years but... it won't work. No sane front runner (or their campaign manager) is going to allow themselves to debate some n-th tier also-ran. If you're Hillary Clinton do you really want to debate Lincoln Chaffee about the metric system while he's a rounding error in political polls? That brings up the second problem way back in the beforetime of 2016, the RNC desperately tried to maintain control of the debates and it mattered not because following Trump's lead the major candidates all said they didn't really care what the RNC said and unless the DNC is willing to back up their plan with a direct loss of delegates for skipping or holding unauthorized debates the candidates will seek to maintain control of their own appearances.
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Nov 1, 2018 12:59
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Have some wonky skewering of Kamala's LIFT proposal https://twitter.com/JHWeissmann/status/1058030074736336897 Paracaidas fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Nov 1, 2018 |
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Nov 1, 2018 18:10
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Can Twitter just ban reply chains where someone writes a novel and replies to each previous tweet over 32 tweets? If you plan on writing 5-10 pages, then just link to a medium or blog post people. the tl;dr of the Tweet chain is Harris' proposal is similar to some of the problems Bernie ran into. It is aspirational and a messaging proposal. To actually implement it at the levels she outlines in the plan would cost a lot more money than reversing the Trump tax cuts and her fee on big banks would bring in. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 1, 2018 |
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Nov 1, 2018 18:17
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Oh no how will she pay for it?!  *kicks F-35 off the deck of an aircraft carrier*. Oops!
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Nov 1, 2018 18:31
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So Harris's big policy proposal is basic income but no poors allowed, that might actually be dumber then Booker Bucks and Booker's plan is guaranteed to never pay out a single cent.
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Nov 1, 2018 18:56
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Why would you give your future prison slave labor force free money, defeats the whole point of budget-saving slavery. Did you even think your comment through, idiot?
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Nov 1, 2018 18:58
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It's kinda crazy how bad all these workshopped "wonk primary" proposals are Don't loving wonk at us Say "Medicare for all" or "free college" or "job guarantee" or "$15 minimum wage." Just say it and keep it short.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:00
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they're completely interchangeable because the candidates proposing them are as well. they're all trying to appeal to the same tiny bloc of the primary electorate
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Nov 1, 2018 19:05
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's kinda crazy how bad all these workshopped "wonk primary" proposals are Every potential candidate has already said Medicare for All and $15 minimum wage. Most of these proposals are something that tackles areas not covered under those proposals and a way to "distinguish" themselves. One fact about the 2020 primary, that is mostly good, is that there is not a huge difference between the potential candidates. Not so long ago, in 2004, you had pro-life Democrats, pro-choice Democrats, pro-Iraq War Democrats, Anti-Iraq War Democrats, pro-gun Democrats, and very anti-gun Democrats all leading in the same primary. Joe Biden is way closer to Elizabeth Warren than Joe Lieberman or Bob Graham was to Howard Dean. That means that you have a Narcissism of Small Differences scenario that encourages people to find ways to break out.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:13
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The Muppets On PCP posted:they're completely interchangeable because the candidates proposing them are as well. they're all trying to appeal to the same tiny bloc of the primary electorate They're a bunch of poli-sci "wonks" trying to wonk up a frankenwonk in a wonkery instead of just asking actual people what they actually want then promising to give it to them
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Nov 1, 2018 19:14
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Every potential candidate has already said Medicare for All and $15 minimum wage. I don't believe Joe Biden has yet stated support for either of those. Not at a national level, anyway.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:15
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I don't believe Joe Biden has yet stated support for either of those. Biden came out for the $15 minimum wage in 2015. quote:Vice President Joe Biden joined New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo at a media event in New York City on Thursday. They were there to celebrate the state’s newly minted $15 hourly minimum wage for fast-food restaurants, which will phase in over the next few years. Mr. Biden, who is weighing a run for the White House, seems to be courting organized labor just in case. Taking the stage, he praised the minimum wage as “smart” and “reasonable.” Mr. Biden praised the new law, but said that it was just a start and the rest of the country should follow New York's lead. And free college: quote:Biden proposed a number of solutions that have been floated by the Democratic party's most progressive members, like offering free college to everyone and banning tactics used by employers to keep workers from being paid higher wages. Medicare for All is the only thing he hasn't been 100% clear on. He says that the government needs to provide everyone with healthcare and that Medicare/Medicaid should both be expanded. He hasn't put out a platform or endorsed any specific bill, though.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:21
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's kinda crazy how bad all these workshopped "wonk primary" proposals are It serves three purposes. First, they think it makes them sound more considered and intelligent on the subject. Second, the workshopping keeps laynards employed, and third, it signal to the donor class that nothing serious is intended and they need not worry that any actual change will result.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:25
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Pretty sure "Medicare for all" under Booker, Harris, Biden, etc. will evolve at least as much as Obama 08's primary pitch for a universal healthcare system that was defintely not going to rely on a mandate like Clinton's.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:29
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:One fact about the 2020 primary, that is mostly good, is that there is not a huge difference between the potential candidates Bull loving poo poo Why are people letting this troll just spout dumb poo poo like this unchallenged? Why do people give dedicated D&D trolls like this the benefit of the doubt? Look at his loving rap sheet!
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Nov 1, 2018 19:30
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DynamicSloth posted:Love the idea of round robin one on one debates, hell with enough candidates you could have one every weekend for 2 years but... it won't work. No sane front runner (or their campaign manager) is going to allow themselves to debate some n-th tier also-ran. If you're Hillary Clinton do you really want to debate Lincoln Chaffee about the metric system while he's a rounding error in political polls? That brings up the second problem way back in the beforetime of 2016, the RNC desperately tried to maintain control of the debates and it mattered not because following Trump's lead the major candidates all said they didn't really care what the RNC said and unless the DNC is willing to back up their plan with a direct loss of delegates for skipping or holding unauthorized debates the candidates will seek to maintain control of their own appearances. I don’t know about one-on-one round robins (and I agree that most front runners would dismiss the idea) but the DNC might have more control, if only out of a collective desire to avoid the kind of shitshow that the Republicans went through in 2016. Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's kinda crazy how bad all these workshopped "wonk primary" proposals are If you do this then the Very Serious People of Washington get to write hand-wringing analyses about the deficit and appear on television bemoaning how you aren’t a “serious candidate.”
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Nov 1, 2018 19:34
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DynamicSloth posted:Pretty sure "Medicare for all" under Booker, Harris, Biden, etc. will evolve at least as much as Obama 08's primary pitch for a universal healthcare system that was defintely not going to rely on a mandate like Clinton's. If you believe that, then that's fine. I think a Medicare for All plan being implemented with a minor detail change like the mandate would be pretty good. Even on a completely superficial and maximum cynical detachment level, the fact that every candidate feels compelled to endorse these policies - even though they are secretly working against them at every turn - shows a big shift from where we were in 2004 and 2008. But people are simultaneously claiming that: - Candidates are not endorsing Medicare for All and only peddling wonky policies in order to placate various unnamed benefactors. and - Candidates are endorsing Medicare for All, but they don't mean it. It can't be both.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:35
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QuoProQuid posted:If you do this then the Very Serious People of Washington get to write hand-wringing analyses about the deficit and appear on television bemoaning how you aren’t a “serious candidate.” The funny thing is it's actually the opposite If you *don't* have a wonked-up policy paper you can just say "we never ask about costs when it comes to the military or tax breaks for the one percent" and shut the conversation down
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Nov 1, 2018 19:35
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WampaLord posted:Bull loving poo poo In what ways is the potential 2020 field far more ideologically diverse than the 2004 field?
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Nov 1, 2018 19:36
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WampaLord posted:Bull loving poo poo LT2012 is a troll about 1/4 of the time. This is not one of those times. Do you really think the difference between Biden and Sanders is wider than the difference between Lieberman and Dean?
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Nov 1, 2018 19:37
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Liz Warren's recent wonk proposals have been pretty good, though. The federal corporate charter where worker's reps must make up 40% of the board of directors is actually a very good idea that other countries do, and not something that gets talked about over here.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:39
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Hellblazer187 posted:LT2012 is a troll about 1/4 of the time. This is not one of those times. Do you really think the difference between Biden and Sanders is wider than the difference between Lieberman and Dean? Or if we are using the 2004 example, Lieberman and Dennis Kucinich. Democratic Primary candidates were still debating whether the Iraq War was good in 2004. In 2020, they are debating how fast we should phase-in a $15 minimum wage, how exactly the government should provide healthcare to everyone, and whether we should make college free or just eliminate tuition. The ideological gap in the Democratic Party is smaller than it has ever been in 2020 and that is mostly a good thing. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Nov 1, 2018 |
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Nov 1, 2018 19:40
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WampaLord posted:Bull loving poo poo Because there's no point arguing with a Holocaust denier who either doesn't understand middle-school arithmetic or is willing to pretend he can't calculate percentages for 12 pages in order to annoy people? The best thing to do is if he says something demonstrably wrong (like the claim above that Booker's baby account wasn't means-tested) is to post the proof he's wrong and let him run away or look absurd by doubling down. If he says something arguably wrong but ultimately a matter of opinion like "eh all the candidates are pretty similar" you're just going to waste a bunch of time as he moves the goalposts all over. Hellblazer187 posted:LT2012 is a troll about 1/4 of the time. This is not one of those times. Do you really think the difference between Biden and Sanders is wider than the difference between Lieberman and Dean? Probably not, but focusing on it is fishmeching* and goal-post moving because the claim was that there is no meaningful difference between any of the 2020 candidates, not that they are less ideologically diverse than some other candidates were at some other time. *Making an untenable argument, then shifting to some tiny factual point that doesn't prove the main argument, and strawmanning anyone disagreeing with the main argument as disagreeing with some limited mostly irrelevant fact. "There aren't huge differences between the 2020 candidates" is a much stronger claim than "they are less dissimilar than Lieberman and Dean", notice you're being tricked into talking about the latter when the conversation was about the former
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Nov 1, 2018 19:44
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Hellblazer187 posted:LT2012 is a troll about 1/4 of the time. This is not one of those times. Do you really think the difference between Biden and Sanders is wider than the difference between Lieberman and Dean? That was not the claim, the claim was that there was "not a huge difference between the potential candidates"
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Nov 1, 2018 19:45
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He said not a huge difference, he didn't say no meaningful difference. Huge is a vague term, but overall he's right that the party has moved left and moved closer together. The most conservative candidate for 2020 is farther left than any other candidate in the last 40 years besides Sanders in 2016.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:49
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I suppose if you want to fight over what qualifies as a "huge" difference, knock yourselves out but it seems like you're missing the overall point.
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Nov 1, 2018 19:51
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