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I think of it as a good excuse for fighters, etc... to find magic weapons. Just ignore whatever rule book or game designer says they don’t need them.
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Nov 2, 2018 18:54
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Toshimo posted:That may be true for works of fiction, but when people are commiting their time, effort, and I mean, it’s a matter of degrees. Is it okay for a druid to summon a bridge of roots to let the fighter charge across a ravine at a line of marksmen? To cast Haste so that the fighter can beat the enemy in a damage race? Cast See Invisible if you’re up against something see-through? IMO those are all fine assuming that the fighter actually gets real powers of its own (perhaps which attack enemy defenses in as variegated ways as spells do) so that it has its own consequential resource-allocation decisions to make on its own turn. In other words, imagine if there was like AUGMENT BLADE, FIGHTER UTILITY 6 (Daily) You’ve studied enough magic and stockpiled enough reagant to spoof a magic weapon against a target of your choice. It’d be okay if a fighter didn’t take that particular power on the basis that he has a wizard buddy.
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Nov 2, 2018 19:49
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to a social experience, they don't want to, and should not have to, play "Mother may I?" with their party members just to participate (especially when it's massively disadvantageous to the other party members and group as a whole).
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Ferrinus posted:I mean, it’s a matter of degrees. Is it okay for a druid to summon a bridge of roots to let the fighter charge across a ravine at a line of marksmen? To cast Haste so that the fighter can beat the enemy in a damage race? Cast See Invisible if you’re up against something see-through? 
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Nov 2, 2018 19:51
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The problem is that in order for the Fighter.....or any martial, to do their job, hitting poo poo hard, they NEED magic weapons to function. This is true for martials, the classes that primarily deal damage, in a way that it isn't true for caster classes. And then, the fix suggested of having a caster use up a valuable concentration slot is ridiculous. Why would a caster use their concentration on that when they could use it on summoning stuff to help with DPS or Hypnotic Patterning, or any number of other vastly more useful things? The caster has better and more fun things to do then patch up a poorly designed class. Madmarker fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Nov 2, 2018 |
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Nov 2, 2018 20:00
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It's the 3.X design problem. The WIzard could buff the front line. Or they could shut down the encounter entirely. But the design team doesn't see that as a problem because "Of course the players will act like they're a team instead of cherry-picking the most powerful options." It's why I wish they designed the Wizard schools around actual schools of thought instead of menus comprised of similar effects. A School of Entropy that teaches mostly Evocation and Decay style Necromancy because "Everything should end." A School of Shifting Perception that does Transmutation and Illusion because "Reality is what we make it." Actual philosophies about energy or relationships or patron spirits instead of "These spells all do fire damage".
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Nov 2, 2018 20:18
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Ferrinus posted:I mean, it’s a matter of degrees. Is it okay for a druid to summon a bridge of roots to let the fighter charge across a ravine at a line of marksmen? To cast Haste so that the fighter can beat the enemy in a damage race? Cast See Invisible if you’re up against something see-through? I mean I sort of kind of see your point but it's cleverly hidden behind an entire system that does nothing like what you suggest would be acceptable
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Nov 2, 2018 20:48
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If I want my job to be "hit people with melee weapons for damage" in 5e, isn't Paladin/Bladelock/Bladesinger always going to be better at it than Fighter/Rogue/Barb/Monk?
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Nov 2, 2018 20:54
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Toshimo posted:If I want my job to be "hit people with melee weapons for damage" in 5e, isn't Paladin/Bladelock/Bladesinger always going to be better at it than Fighter/Rogue/Barb/Monk? Nah barbarian owns, taking half damage covers a lot
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Nov 2, 2018 21:01
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IIRC if you can guarantee access to Haste a Rogue can catch up with the Attack > Cunning Action Hide > Ready Haste Attack with a dumb simple trigger combo. But that's fiddly as hell and you'll never guarantee Haste for every fight.
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Nov 2, 2018 21:40
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Razorwired posted:IIRC if you can guarantee access to Haste a Rogue can catch up with the Attack > Cunning Action Hide > Ready Haste Attack with a dumb simple trigger combo. But that's fiddly as hell and you'll never guarantee Haste for every fight. Oh, I gotcha. I don't know that that really catches up though. Toshimo fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Nov 2, 2018 |
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Nov 2, 2018 21:51
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Razorwired posted:IIRC if you can guarantee access to Haste a Rogue can catch up with the Attack > Cunning Action Hide > Ready Haste Attack with a dumb simple trigger combo. But that's fiddly as hell and you'll never guarantee Haste for every fight. I rolled for stats in a campaign recently and got crazy rolls, so I made Bladesinger/Rogue that can Haste itself and it's PRETTY DUMB.
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Nov 2, 2018 22:02
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Razorwired posted:IIRC if you can guarantee access to Haste a Rogue can catch up with the Attack > Cunning Action Hide > Ready Haste Attack with a dumb simple trigger combo. But that's fiddly as hell and you'll never guarantee Haste for every fight. [Huge Nerd Moment] The additional action from Haste has some restrictions, so you can't use it to Ready. Instead you will use it to make the first attack, then Cunning Action, and then use the normal action to Ready. This means you are doing the exact same thing and yet it's different in some way that absolutely doesn't matter. Now if you'll excuse me, I must go drink and hope it washes away my shame. It never does. [/Huge Nerd Moment]
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Nov 2, 2018 22:11
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Sage Genesis posted:[Huge Nerd Moment] It's different because it means you couldn't off-hand attack instead of Cunning Action if you wanted (i.e. because you missed on your first swing and wanted to be able to still get your Sneak damage).
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Nov 2, 2018 22:14
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Monk isn't amazing at 'hit things for damage' but they're fantastic at "stunlock something". Also Open Hand monk is great for "move enemies around a battlefield", and Shadow monk is great for "have just as much out of combat utility as in-combat ability".
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Nov 2, 2018 22:28
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bewilderment posted:Monk isn't amazing at 'hit things for damage' but they're fantastic at "stunlock something". Also Open Hand monk is great for "move enemies around a battlefield", and Shadow monk is great for "have just as much out of combat utility as in-combat ability". They're also great at annoying Sean K Reynolds
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Nov 2, 2018 22:33
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Darwinism posted:I mean I sort of kind of see your point but it's cleverly hidden behind an entire system that does nothing like what you suggest would be acceptable Oh for sure. I just think it's important not to get hung up on incidental details which are evocative of but don't actually constitute wizard supremacy, like creatures resistant to mundane physical damage or Knock spells or whatever. All of this stuff would have been (and, indeed, was) fine in 4e.
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Nov 2, 2018 22:47
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Ferrinus posted:Oh for sure. I just think it's important not to get hung up on incidental details which are evocative of but don't actually constitute wizard supremacy, like creatures resistant to mundane physical damage or Knock spells or whatever. All of this stuff would have been (and, indeed, was) fine in 4e. This isn't getting hung up on incidental details, though, there is literally a baked in "We know magical weapons are required, so here you go," to some classes and not others. It's not evocative narrative-focused details when you can't hurt a thing because your pluses aren't high enough so you have to go to your buddy, who has no problems hurting the thing, and ask him to pretty please let you participate in the fight at the expense of his own ability. And I can't remember a single 4E creature that was just flat-out immune to being just loving stabbed a lot - even ghosts just halved damage, and it was from most sources too so even then martials weren't hosed any more than everyone else was likely to be! I mean I'd loving love it if 5E built in more collaborative bits with the classes but that game isn't here and pointing at how users can patch the game is not a positive example of collaboration.
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Nov 2, 2018 23:38
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it would be cool if their were a fighter or martial ability where you could use your reaction to interpose yourself between an ally and an enemy attack if the attack would hit your ally's ac but not the fighters
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Nov 2, 2018 23:50
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If your enjoyment of the game is being affected by your character not having a magic weapon talk to your dm who is an adult human like yourself
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Nov 3, 2018 00:17
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It's not like quests for magic doohickeys aren't 99.999% of all fantasy ever written
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Nov 3, 2018 00:19
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dreadmojo posted:If your enjoyment of the game is being affected by your character not having a magic weapon talk to your dm who is an adult human like yourself if we were capable of talking to people like adult humans we wouldn't be playing dnd in the first place /s
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Nov 3, 2018 00:34
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dreadmojo posted:It's not like quests for magic doohickeys aren't 99.999% of all fantasy ever written https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ObedientMajesticEyra-small.gif
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Nov 3, 2018 00:57
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dreadmojo posted:If your enjoyment of the game is being affected by your character not having a magic weapon talk to your dm who is an adult human like yourself I mean that's a nice, if unrealistic, solution for a flawed situation but it would sure be nice if the situation didn't crop up to begin with
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Nov 3, 2018 00:58
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"But 4th ed did it so-" was a bunch of minor action buffs to my arcane pals though. One and done, no upkeep. Like, the Kobold fighter in our group had multiple magic weapons anyways (plus we were using inherent on top, but actual magic weapons are cooler). But it was only a minor action for my Artificier to ask them "What flavor of magical weapon buff would you like?" Or a floating eyeball that would allow anyone BUT me to add psychic damage to their attacks, but no upkeep so it was still cool to cast even as a standard action. More importantly. 4th ed had NO enemies that were immune to harm without X weapon (Outside of plot device moments). While 5th ed still brought back such things. So saying "Well 4th ed had damage resistant enemies too" is wildly disingenuous. You could murder a werewolf without silver or magic weapons in 4th ed, because all silver did in 4th ed was suppress their regen making it FASTER to kill them, not "possible" to kill them. On top of Regen in 4th ed turns off when you die without explicit in monster block exceptions. A Monk not needing magic fists to kill a werewolf with their bare hands and it just being a pleasant bonus, also sounds much more badass than "My actual martial arts didn't matter. Just that my hands quality as 'magic'". Though now I'm imagining somebody slapping a 5th ed monster to death with some gloves of missile snaring. Section Z fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Nov 3, 2018 |
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Nov 3, 2018 00:59
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Section Z posted:
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Nov 3, 2018 01:03
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Darwinism posted:I mean that's a nice, if unrealistic, solution for a flawed situation but it would sure be nice if the situation didn't crop up to begin with Going on a quest for a magic sword is an unrealistic thing to do in a game of dungeons and dragons.
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Nov 3, 2018 01:24
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dreadmojo posted:Going on a quest for a magic sword is an unrealistic thing to do in a game of dungeons and dragons. You shouldn’t have to play “DM May I” to get your class’ basic job done.
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Nov 3, 2018 01:27
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dreadmojo posted:Going on a quest for a magic sword is an unrealistic thing to do in a game of dungeons and dragons. Hold on, let me Fresh Prince pause this hardback fight so we can do a brief excursion to the Evil Dungeon of Free S-Words.
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Nov 3, 2018 01:28
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Section Z posted:You could murder a werewolf without silver or magic weapons in 4th ed, because all silver did in 4th ed was suppress their regen making it FASTER to kill them, not "possible" to kill them. I know most creatures that had ways to overcome regeneration also tended to be "If they're hit with silver/fire/whatever, the regeneration doesn't work that round", so it's not "Does every martial have X", it's "If a single person has X, the entire party is probably good." dreadmojo posted:If your enjoyment of the game is being affected by your character not having a magic weapon talk to your dm who is an adult human like yourself Every single person involved with D&D in any way is just absolute trash. Every single person.
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Nov 3, 2018 01:29
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dreadmojo posted:Going on a quest for a magic sword is an unrealistic thing to do in a game of dungeons and dragons. This has been an ongoing issue for something like 15 playing sessions in my campaign. My character is pretty sure he saw a magic arming sword on an orc and wants to get it, everyone else doesn't care and wants to do other stuff. I'm getting more and more insistent as time passes because everyone but me is a caster and I want a magic sword not this dumb magic dagger that I don't want to use
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Nov 3, 2018 01:33
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dreadmojo posted:Going on a quest for a magic sword is an unrealistic thing to do in a game of dungeons and dragons. "Hey, werewolf, do you mind giving us a little while to go on a quest to find a weapon that will allow me to murder you?"
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Nov 3, 2018 01:56
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Also pointing out situations where the problem is solved is weird. Yeah, if people resolve the issue it is resolved. But... that doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist? It's like going, "But what if you just... cooked well," to someone who says a particular cookbook has flawed recipes. Yeah, if I compensate for every time the cookbook tells me to add a teaspoon of poo poo there is no problem, congrats on noticing that! But what if the cookbook just didn't do that?
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Nov 3, 2018 02:01
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Darwinism posted:Also pointing out situations where the problem is solved is weird. Yeah, if people resolve the issue it is resolved. But... that doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist? It's like going, "But what if you just... cooked well," to someone who says a particular cookbook has flawed recipes. Yeah, if I compensate for every time the cookbook tells me to add a teaspoon of poo poo there is no problem, congrats on noticing that! But what if the cookbook just didn't do that?
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Nov 3, 2018 02:02
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dreadmojo posted:Going on a quest for a magic sword is an unrealistic thing to do in a game of dungeons and dragons. Being a hero who can sword fight every monster is an unrealistic thing to do in a game of dungeons and dragons. When the kingdom needs a hero, here comes the farmboy-with-his-father's-sword-oh-gee-I-wonder-if-that-sword-is-special is an unrealistic thing to do in a game of dungeons and dragons. Nobody can hurt it with their little swords but oh poo poo here comes Krorg The Destroyer and wooooah he's ripped its fuckin head right off <battle metal plays in background> is an unrealistic thing to do in a game of dungeons and dragons. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Nov 3, 2018 |
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Nov 3, 2018 02:13
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dreadmojo posted:If your enjoyment of the game is being affected by your character not having a magic weapon talk to your dm who is an adult human like yourself It's weird, I can't remember what part of the book tells players to give their DMs notes on what kind of magic items they want. I mean, it's gotta be there for this to be a valid solution, I just can't seem to find it.
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Nov 3, 2018 03:16
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Piell posted:Nah barbarian owns, taking half damage covers a lot Barbarian is a worse Fighter; all Rage DR does is compensate for the increased damage they'll take from sinking their AC with Reckless Attack. Bear Totem edges out against Battle Master vs DEX-targetting elemental damage, but BM is stronger offensively and then there's EK with Absorb Elements to just be the better tank overall. And then Paladin comes along and dunks on both.
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Nov 3, 2018 03:48
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Darwinism posted:This isn't getting hung up on incidental details, though, there is literally a baked in "We know magical weapons are required, so here you go," to some classes and not others. It's not evocative narrative-focused details when you can't hurt a thing because your pluses aren't high enough so you have to go to your buddy, who has no problems hurting the thing, and ask him to pretty please let you participate in the fight at the expense of his own ability. And I can't remember a single 4E creature that was just flat-out immune to being just loving stabbed a lot - even ghosts just halved damage, and it was from most sources too so even then martials weren't hosed any more than everyone else was likely to be! I'm thinking of stuff like incorporeal undead that would lose incorporeal whenever they took radiant damage (or more normal controller/striker or defender combos where a Visions of Avarice and a fighter with some aoes turns an entire encounter on its head), although I've also seen 4e fights swing significantly on one character's ability to grant another a fly speed or typed damage resistance or similar. In principle enemies that just can't be hurt until the appropriate player spends a resource to set the stage properly is just a continuation of the trend - one you can get away with a little more in 5e because individual fights are shorter and just plain have less of interest going on, but that still really needs fighters to have credible options to strangle or drown a Nemean lion to be completely defensible.
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Nov 3, 2018 07:23
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If I'm creating monsters from scratch for my game, does the pure ability score itself themselves matter a lot or just the modifier ?
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Nov 3, 2018 12:53
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You want the ability scores to determine their saves / ability checks mainly but also RP reasons if the party interacts socially. If it was me I'd just determine the ability scores as that gives you the modifiers anyway. They're basically interchangable as you've already realised and I can't really think of what the ability score tells you mechanically that the modifier doesn't so I guess it's whichever works for you.
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Nov 3, 2018 14:06
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Ferrinus posted:I'm thinking of stuff like incorporeal undead that would lose incorporeal whenever they took radiant damage (or more normal controller/striker or defender combos where a Visions of Avarice and a fighter with some aoes turns an entire encounter on its head), although I've also seen 4e fights swing significantly on one character's ability to grant another a fly speed or typed damage resistance or similar. In principle enemies that just can't be hurt until the appropriate player spends a resource to set the stage properly is just a continuation of the trend - one you can get away with a little more in 5e because individual fights are shorter and just plain have less of interest going on, but that still really needs fighters to have credible options to strangle or drown a Nemean lion to be completely defensible. Firstly, not everyone sucks. Casters function just as well against pretty much any enemy, except for a few very, very specific enemies which require the caster to use a different part of their large toolset. Secondly, not everyone gets to make people awesome. Martials don't get to fill the party with Fighting Juice to make them hit harder. Thirdly, it's not making everyone awesome. Enchanting the fighter's weapon makes one person not suck at the cost of the caster's concentration slot. Ferrinus posted:I mean, it’s a matter of degrees. Is it okay for a druid to summon a bridge of roots to let the fighter charge across a ravine at a line of marksmen? To cast Haste so that the fighter can beat the enemy in a damage race? Cast See Invisible if you’re up against something see-through? Invisibility will negatively effect most of the party, so casting see invisible falls under the above. Haste is making the Fighter cooler than baseline, with the secondary benefit of it being an actual change to how their turn functions instead of just a raw damage buff. The bridge of roots is just good old fashioned terrain manipulation. They're all qualitatively, not just quantitatively, different to the case of a particular subset of characters sitting out of the fight unless one of the other characters chooses to allow them to act normally.
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Nov 3, 2018 14:09
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