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Yeah I also should have been clear that I meant you shouldn't try to guess what someone makes based on what they drive.
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Nov 2, 2018 19:46
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:Yeah I also should have been clear that I meant you shouldn't try to guess what someone makes based on what they drive.
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Nov 2, 2018 19:56
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:Yeah I also should have been clear that I meant you shouldn't try to guess what someone makes based on what they drive. Yeah that's definitely true for some people I work with, though you can still get a reasonable idea by taking an average of the parking lot and figuring out you're near the bottom of that average. Anyway I had a whole speech prepared about how they're taking advantage of my time instead of my talents and I won't stand for it anymore and poo poo but when I went in to talk to HR she said I was still in consideration and I'll know more next week. With any luck I'll be struck by a train between now and then.
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Nov 2, 2018 20:52
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lol, over five years they have become pros at stringing you along. But I guess it's possible that after all these years they have now finally realized they're about to lose you if they don't improve your role and are about to make your dreams come true
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Nov 2, 2018 21:09
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:lol, this is a little bit of a derail but you should 100% never judge someone based on how they choose to spend their money (or incur debt!) put away the GGGC bat signal pls
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Nov 2, 2018 21:21
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Friend posted:Yeah that's definitely true for some people I work with, though you can still get a reasonable idea by taking an average of the parking lot and figuring out you're near the bottom of that average. jesus christ dude quit
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Nov 2, 2018 21:21
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Yeah you sound like me at my old company (I was there for 6 years I should have left after 2). GTFO.
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Nov 2, 2018 21:25
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Also if you have to prepare a speech to give to HR about how you won't stand being exploited anymore, you're doing it entirely wrong and it's already too late. There's probably a much longer post that would need to be written about this, and it should probably be written by someone who thinks more clearly than I do, but... everywhere you go in life and meet new people, they immediately test you, always. It's just how people are wired. A new job, new class, new relationship, new neighbors, everything: the first thing people do is test you in a hundred subtle ways to see what your boundaries are, what you will and won't tolerate and accept. I've never ever seen a "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!" speech to a boss or HR or whatever end well, and it has nothing to do with the content of the speech or the quality of the delivery. It has to do with the fact that five minutes of declaring you will not stand for being exploited runs contrary to thousands of days of steadily accumulating evidence that, actually, in fact you will stand for it. They won't believe you when you suddenly claim you've suddenly become a different person, and even if you really truly mean it, they'll let you walk because they think you're bluffing. Then (if you really have matured and won't stand for being exploited anymore) you'll move to a new job with a new company and no such conversation will ever come up--by the end of your first week everyone there will know, without every having asked you about it, that you won't stand for being exploited. It's just who you are, and humans are very very good at teasing out what your personal boundaries are and how much backbone you have, almost immediately upon beginning to interact with you. Toddlers do it intuitively, with each other and with adults. Adults do it even more intuitively with each other.
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Nov 2, 2018 21:31
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Eric the Mauve posted:Also if you have to prepare a speech to give to HR about how you won't stand being exploited anymore, you're doing it entirely wrong and it's already too late Eric the Mauve posted:There's probably a much longer post that would need to be written about this, and it should probably be written by someone who thinks more clearly than I do, but... everywhere you go in life and meet new people, they immediately test you, always. It's just how people are wired. A new job, new class, new relationship, new neighbors, everything: the first thing people do is test you in a hundred subtle ways to see what your boundaries are, what you will and won't tolerate and accept.
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Nov 2, 2018 22:54
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Eric the Mauve posted:Also if you have to prepare a speech to give to HR about how you won't stand being exploited anymore, you're doing it entirely wrong and it's already too late. Thanks, I appreciate this post because you're mostly right and I can see how it happened, slowly year by year. I also think I made things out to be a bit more dire in my other posts because I was pretty angry at the time and didn't do a good job justifying why I have stuck around so long (though in my defense I have been applying for other jobs on and off for at least three years), and it wasn't helped with everyone's (rational) prejudice against startups. The first year at the company was my dream job: I was a fan before I applied, my peers were a diverse group of really cool people who were nerdy enough to work on the internet but not so much that every conversation revolved around video games or whatever, my official duties were pretty easy, and I got to do fun and creative things in my spare time, like building a putt putt course in the office to film a video for when we sold golf balls. I had never edited a video before, so I saw it as getting paid to practice skills that I didn't have and wanted to learn, and I really enjoy it now. I got a small raise on my 1 year anniversary, and then we launched a second website which is where things started to go downhill. I got more busy (all the same duties, just more of them to do), and then I got another raise at the start of year 2, this time 20%. So I was thinking "well, the company is growing, and so is my workload, but at least my paycheck is too." This is also around the time that most of the cool people I worked with quit (and, for what it's worth, all regretted it for awhile at least). By the end of Year 2 my workload had grown to be unbearable, and in my defense I did push back often, until they finally hired someone else to help me at the start of year 3. Didn't get a raise, but at least I didn't have to stress so much about working too much. Last September, the start of year 4, they launched another website, similar to before but this one is basically just a ton of poo poo to do all at once instead of being spread throughout the week. When it was announced, I pushed and was reassured that setup would be done at a reasonable speed and I would not be stuck waiting for other people to do their job before I could do mine at the last minute. This has not been the case. I have been making this known and have every intention of addressing to my boss that it can't continue (probably tomorrow when I finish this week's poo poo). Aaaanyway I realized I wasn't getting a raise but I had already asked for the email position, so I've been trying to balance out which of the two fights I want to put up more, and have recently realized I need to combine them into one: I need a new position, and a raise in the meantime. The TLDR of that is Year 0: Dream job. Year 1: not as dreamy but started off with a raise and still better than most jobs. Year 2: Also started with a raise, but began to super suck and I complained a lot. Year 3: Started with someone else hired to help me out, no raise but less sucky at least. Now: No raise, super sucky, wanting to push back but probably overthinking how. I said "prepare a speech" but really just meant I had gotten my thoughts together enough to go in and say something without sounding like a whiney bitch, which I realize wouldn't have to be a concern if I had been more proactive before it got to this point. Again, I appreciate your post because while I have pushed back in the past, I haven't been as quick to do so as I should have, and I have asked about new opportunities every year, but not much more than one or two conversations around my anniversary, and I intend to make both more of a priority. That, and applying for more jobs elsewhere.
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Nov 2, 2018 23:55
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If you're confident in your ability to get a new job, you could hand in your resignation
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Nov 3, 2018 12:30
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Dance Officer posted:If you're confident in your ability to get a new job, you could hand in your resignation Or just keep showing up for work and doing whatever the hell you want (including looking for your next job) until they fire you. Which they probably wont until theyve got a replacement lined up. Its the employee-to-employer version of a PIP Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 13:40 on Nov 3, 2018 |
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Nov 3, 2018 13:33
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Eric the Mauve posted:Or just keep showing up for work and doing whatever the hell you want (including looking for your next job) until they fire you. Which they probably wont until theyve got a replacement lined up.
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Nov 3, 2018 14:52
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Eric the Mauve posted:Or just keep showing up for work and doing whatever the hell you want (including looking for your next job) until they fire you. Which they probably won’t until they’ve got a replacement lined up. I probably come off as a privileged moron but everyone who has the opportunity should spend some time as a key employee who doesn't care any more. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Nov 4, 2018 |
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Nov 4, 2018 07:28
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Just received my first offer. I did poorly on the negotiation, prior to reading this thread. There was some back and forth over the phone, I asked for $72k (Id like more but its an entry level ish role) and they came up to 70 with a 2k 1 time bonus. They said they wanted an answer by Friday. I currently make 60k but my market is probably 70+. Im probably qualified for experienced positions and those can pay 85+. I think I have a good chance of getting an experienced position that pays more. Still, a bird in the hand... Asked 3 experienced coworkers for advice and they all said Its a right to work state. Take the offer. Keep applying. Leave as soon as you find a better one. If I push back my start date and sign, but get a better offer and withdraw my acceptance before my first day, does that make it more or less lovely than showing up for a few weeks? The people who gave me the offer seem really nice and I hate to do this, its just that they only have an entry level position open and dont do a lot of promotions, so I feel like I can find better soon. Maybe I wont seem like a monster if I tell them when Im jumping ship a company I applied with prior to accepting finally got back to me with an offer of +X, unless you can match that I need to take this opportunity to provide for my family. What should I do? Negotiate harder? Hop on planning to hop off for the next offer? Take the high road, say no and count on more interviews coming my way? Edit: doesnt right to work mean that in the absence of a contract you can leave at any time for another company?? teardrop fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Nov 5, 2018 |
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Nov 5, 2018 22:38
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This isn't entirely on topic but "right to work" almost certainly doesn't work the way your coworkers think it works in this context unless you're applying to a job that frequently involves unions.
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Nov 5, 2018 22:44
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teardrop posted:What should I do? Negotiate harder? Hop on planning to hop off for the next offer? Take the high road, say no and count on more interviews coming my way? No, like 97% of the population you are confusing Right To Work with At-Will Employment. As for your bigger question, let me answer that with a question: if they hire you, and three weeks later a VP's nephew who does what you do becomes unemployed, how much loyalty do you think the company would show to you?
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Nov 5, 2018 22:51
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teardrop posted:If I push back my start date and sign, but get a better offer and withdraw my acceptance before my first day, does that make it more or less lovely than showing up for a few weeks? The people who gave me the offer seem really nice and I hate to do this, its just that they only have an entry level position open and dont do a lot of promotions, so I feel like I can find better soon. Maybe I wont seem like a monster if I tell them when Im jumping ship a company I applied with prior to accepting finally got back to me with an offer of +X, unless you can match that I need to take this opportunity to provide for my family.
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Nov 5, 2018 23:23
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Eric the Mauve posted:No, like 97% of the population you are confusing Right To Work with At-Will Employment.
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Nov 5, 2018 23:24
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teardrop posted:I currently make 60k but my market is probably 70+. I’m probably qualified for experienced positions and those can pay 85+. I think I have a good chance of getting an experienced position that pays more. Still, a bird in the hand... Devil's advocate: if market is 70+ and they're paying 70 then they're market. Are you being honest with yourself regarding those more experienced positions? Keeping in mind that it's very difficult to get hired up a level
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Nov 5, 2018 23:26
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Xguard86 posted:Devil's advocate: if market is 70+ and they're paying 70 then they're market. Are you being honest with yourself regarding those more experienced positions? Keeping in mind that it's very difficult to get hired up a level I have 8 years of experience as a chemist (at 1 company, never promoted), Sr Chemist type postings require 5-10, this position is a lateral move from manufacturing to R&D which requires 1-3 years of experience and 1 of their interviewers privately told me Im overqualified. Its possible Ill bomb all my interviews for Sr Chemist but a recruiter told me I can get interviews and ask 85k based on my experience, and got me that interview next week.
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Nov 5, 2018 23:35
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teardrop posted:I have 8 years of experience as a chemist (at 1 company, never promoted), Sr Chemist type postings require 5-10, this position is a lateral move from manufacturing to R&D which requires 1-3 years of experience and 1 of their interviewers privately told me Im overqualified. Its possible Ill bomb all my interviews for Sr Chemist but a recruiter told me I can get interviews and ask 85k based on my experience, and got me that interview next week.
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Nov 5, 2018 23:38
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teardrop posted:Just received my first offer. I did poorly on the negotiation, prior to reading this thread. There was some back and forth over the phone, I asked for $72k (Id like more but its an entry level ish role) and they came up to 70 with a 2k 1 time bonus. They said they wanted an answer by Friday. Right to work means you can't be required to join a union as a condition of employment. Your coworkers are probably thinking of at-will employment, which means either party can terminate the work relationship at any time for any reason. That said, I agree with them, the smart thing to do if you want 85+ is to take the new job and keep applying. Thinking about it terms of "lovely" or "monstrous" behavior isn't healthy. You're a businessperson providing business services to businesses; you do this in exchange for money; someone else can pay you better, therefore...
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Nov 5, 2018 23:39
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Dik Hz posted:Once again, thanks for providing the most cynical take possible.
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Nov 5, 2018 23:42
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Dik Hz posted:Where are you located? Also, is your experience in quality? Currently Phoenix, can relocate immediately. Yes, quality. This does open up some management opportunities (just had an interview) and I can also spin it towards analytical chemist if needed. I have a masters which helps with analytical and R&D. teardrop fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Nov 6, 2018 |
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Nov 6, 2018 01:36
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teardrop posted:Currently Phoenix, can relocate immediately. Good luck!
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Nov 6, 2018 01:53
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:It's foolish to show any loyalty to an institution that doesn't reciprocate it. Is it less cynical if I say "The very minute firing you becomes profitable for the company, they will do so"? That's the condition almost any job operates under, and also exactly what you're doing in turn by quitting upon getting a better offer, even if it's three weeks after you've started during training.
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Nov 6, 2018 01:55
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Dik Hz posted:Quality is looked down upon in R&D and so is analytical to a lesser extent. I know, Ive actually scrubbed most references to quality from my resume. Everyone knows what a quality chemist does so I basically dont even mention it during interviews and just start telling stories about systematic problem solving, statistical process controls, and the importance of communication in cross-functional teams. The interviewer who told me I was overqualified told me to take quality off my resume for future applications because I sound nothing like a quality chemist. Talk about backhanded compliment haha. Anyway, the offer. They offered 68, I said 72, they offered 70, so I dont think I can haggle them up more. So is the consensus that I should accept, even though I plan to aggressively keep looking for a better offer?
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Nov 6, 2018 02:54
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You can try pushing again for 72, but yeah, you'd struggle to justify going beyond that. Accept the job and apply for more jobs. Don't freak out about burning your bridges. It's an entry-level position in what's not a small industry.
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Nov 6, 2018 03:18
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Ok so, I read the OP again as well as the past few pages and am looking for some input/validation. Some of what I'm covering I had previously discussed in the career path thread but my situation has changed again I had a big client decide not to renew their contract with my current company, but overall the client was very happy with many of us. At this clients request the new TPA is trying to poach several of us. I got a bit lucky because my current employer pulled me off the clients program and I got a new position and a nice raise putting me at $60K. I still interviewed with the new TPA but initially didn't think they'd be able to offer substantially more since I only have 3 years experience in this field. What changed was my old supervisor is unable to take a position with the new TPA due to their office location being too far. Because of this the client requested that I interview for the position which I did and now they are offering me the position. I lucked out because while the client and by extension new TPA knows how much I was making before they decided to not renew they dont know how much I'm making now. They pressed me several times but I told them I needed more information about the total compensation (PTO, 401k etc). While they were providing me some of that information they made their initial offer of $78K. Now while this is a decent range I know this will be a high stress position with a lot of responsibilities and $78K is at the VERY bottom of the scale. I was thinking of asking for $93K and hoping to end up at ~$83K. Is there anything I should look out for?
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Nov 6, 2018 14:41
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Dik Hz posted:Firing someone that was just hired has a negative impact on morale for the rest of the team (unless that person was a gently caress-up) and morale strongly correlates with productivity. Business looks out for profit, but good business also realizes that their primary asset (in most industries) is a strong workforce. So yeah, it doesn't make sense to fire someone right away, but the precondition holds. If it were profitable to do so, morale effect included, they would. Those are the terms of the deal. It's not any less legitimate for you to end it for a few bucks than it is for them.
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Nov 6, 2018 17:07
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I have an offer in writing from a company and no competing offers at this time. I left my previous position two weeks ago and have had two other interviews but this is the only offer I've received. I'm comfortable with the position and the feel I got for the company overall based on the interview and other people who have worked there before. There's no downside to sending a counter, right? The worst they can do is say no and then I still have the option to accept as is ?
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Nov 6, 2018 22:22
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Always send a counter. Mull it over. Accept if you like it. You can also try and delay and get those other interviews. Even then if the other interview proves successful and has a better offer you can certainly apologize to the first company and accept the other! Edit: Oh it looks like you dont have any other interviews coming up. Well nevermind. Point is you can accept an offer and later decline it in that time period before you start. Itll be ok even if it does screw them over a little.
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Nov 6, 2018 22:37
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General Probe posted:Now while this is a decent range I know this will be a high stress position with a lot of responsibilities and $78K is at the VERY bottom of the scale. I was thinking of asking for $93K and hoping to end up at ~$83K. Is there anything I should look out for?
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Nov 7, 2018 00:00
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I got them up to $80k which is not bad. It's a good opportunity for me to establish myself in the position and build out my resume considering it's almost unprecedented to move into that position in only 3 years. If that goon that posted the thread still checks this subforum I'd like to think that I'm providing a good example of the combat of bad degree (business management) and bad GPA (sub 3) still finding at least some success.
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Nov 8, 2018 16:50
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The OP is focused on salary negotiation at the start of employment, but I'm going to need to renegotiate my comp (ask for a raise) soon and need assistance from internet strangers on how to approach it. I'm a web developer for a really quickly growing startup -- VC dipshits want to throw more money at us than we could ever hope to spend right now and are mad at us for not spending enough money or growing fast enough and I guess people who know how money works think we are onto something good. We have a few projects on the go right now, one of which I recently volunteered to work a few extra hours on to try and pump it out to customers ASAP. My boss attached a $1k bonus to finishing it within a week, and I did. During the code review for this project, he asked what I thought about the idea of having 'bounties' like this and we had a talk about it. Then he asked if I'm eager to do it because I just need more money and think I'm currently underpaid. I mentioned that I had planned on having this conversation with him ever since I was hired, but I wanted to wait at least 6 months before I brought it up. Basically I'm a self-taught dev, I've been working in this industry since February of this year (first working at an agency making GBS threads out stupid websites for idiot assholes, and now at this cool company since July). I somehow ended up in something of an intermediate-to-senior position in this company, which is cool as hell, but I think everybody who knows what my comp is (62k) knows that they got a great deal for me, based on my lack of previous professional experience. I was happy with the 62k (plus a 2.5%-of-salary quarterly bonus if our sales team does good sales things) when I took it because it was basically a cost of living increase for the move from the prairies to Vancouver, but between rent and the cost of living in this city and my preference to eat, I really do need a higher comp. Ideally, I'd like to be at 80k... That was sort of my goal within a couple of years from when I started at this company, but considering they are flush with money right now, we are growing fast, and they seem to like the work I've done so far and probably want me to focus on the company instead of looking for freelance work or bartending to supplement my income. It seems sort of lofty, but I think I can probably swing it. My understanding is that I'm going to want to show tangible benefits that there would be for my comp to increase so that I can continue doing good job things instead of bad job things. So here's some points I've put together about things I'm doing and where I'm going and why I deserve them to give me money in exchange for my previous life energy... - I'm basically setting up the scaffolding for a new QA team to start soon (grunt work of plunking IDs into HTML elements for our frontend app) and have decided on what testing framework to use for e2e testing and have demoed it and stuff. - I was told that they want me to start working in a customer-facing capacity because I'm good at being a human and speaking like the humans speak which I guess is hard for developers... So I'm trying to learn as much about our entire platform from web poo poo to backend poo poo to app poo poo to this loving next thing that I'm about to mention - I spent the last week putting together an integration with an external device that about 400k of deals with clients at a minimum is riding on and I kind of killed it - I onboarded fully within a couple of weeks and was fully operational in my expected role which is meh because it's frontend and frontend is easy, but also it's Angular 1 which is old and not exciting or sexy and I think that could be a point towards me getting more money to continue working with something that sucks. (If anybody is a web dev nerd who reads this I was hired as a React guy because they wanted to transition from Angular over to React for their frontend and then things just kind of blew the gently caress up and we went from a dev team of 4 to 20 within 2 months to handle how much we are trying to grow right now) So anyway, how can/should I approach this? 80k seems super lofty from 62k, but idk.
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Nov 8, 2018 20:16
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I'll just be the first to say it: you need a BATNA to be actually negotiating. Otherwise you're just asking politely. Go out there and get another offer.
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Nov 8, 2018 20:19
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There's also nothing wrong with asking politely as long as you're very cognizant of the fact that the other party is also very likely to politely tell you no. (or impolitely)
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Nov 9, 2018 22:17
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Oh please stop pretending like you all didn't immediately just splay your SO out on the kitchen counter right after closing for the first time. You nasty, sick fucks.
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Nov 10, 2018 02:43
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Pryor on Fire posted:Oh please stop pretending like you all didn't immediately just splay your SO out on the kitchen counter right after closing for the first time. You nasty, sick fucks.
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Nov 10, 2018 02:47
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