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Z. Autobahn posted:A huge swath of Americans are awful racist misogynists who reliably vote for those things, and unfortunately, our garbage constitution disproportionately empowers them. Just because we don't want that to be the case doesn't magically make it so. Yes, and most of them live in the suburbs and are the exact kind of "panera voter" that the democrat party has been trying to capture since 2016. The liberal hatred of rurals is hilarious and some pretty epic projection- the most segregated school systems are in big cities full of white liberals.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:35
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Condiv posted:voted an unqualified rapist onto the supreme court This, right here, is why Manchin is indefensible imo. The bare minimum necessary of him is not to vote for Republican Supreme Court justices. He failed that test. gently caress him.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:36
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Main Paineframe posted:In 2020, the NY minimum wage is going to be $12.50, the CA minimum wage is going to be $12, and the MA minimum wage is going to be $12.75. I used 2020 because that's the latest year for which minimum wage data is available for NY; increases beyond that will be at the discretion of state officials.  I remember Clinton getting a lot of heat for "$12 nationwide, $15 some places" during the primaries. All I mean is that what was passed is hardly the standard to which we're holding progressive politicians at the moment. Doesn't mean those weren't huge (lifechanging!) victories last night.Also seems a bit misleading to be throwing around MFA polling numbers as proof of the hunger for Single Payer without acknowledging that the bulk of those in favor believe they're responding in favor of a multipayer system where they can keep their coverage and (a more comprehensive) Medicare(Public Option) is available to anyone who wants it. Especially given that its most recent ballot appearance saw overwhelming defeat in a blue state. The overwhelming majority of each party supports UHC based on repeated polling data, and I'm sure there's a more... honest... way to make the case that one flavor is more popular.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:36
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president fascist so what
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Nov 8, 2018 00:37
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Z. Autobahn posted:Yes, it is extremely ghoulish. We live in a deeply ghoulish country and a huge percentage of our countrymen are literal awful ghouls. My proposal is, essentially, tricking those ghouls into looking the other way exactly long enough to disempower them. What's your proposal? I don't think your strategy will work, though. Outside of Manchin, red state Democrats have been dropping like flies and they're already garbage centrists on the issues. How much worse do they have to be than Donnelly's "sure we can get rid of birthright citizenship" before it's not worth it anymore for you?
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Nov 8, 2018 00:37
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Yes, and most of them live in the suburbs and are the exact kind of "panera voter" that the democrat party has been trying to capture since 2016. I mean, those panera voters by and large just gave the Dems the House?
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Nov 8, 2018 00:37
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Z. Autobahn posted:Yes. Taking control of the Senate by running Dems who can win in those states, flaws and all, is the absolute best way to help all of those people, because once Dems control the Senate, they can pass legislation like voter rights, more statehoods, etc., that will then let them control the Senate much more reliably and therefore not need red state Dems. This is always the party answer, and the truth is when Dems had a majority under Obama, they suddenly couldn't do anything of value because they didn't have a super majority. There is also the problem that many of the more corporate centrist / right leaning Democrats don't actually support worker rights, or more statehoods, or MFA, which means you are still at the whim of whatever you can get Joe Manchin to vote for.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:38
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I feel a little  about it, but what are the chances that there has been some big developments in Mueller’s investigation, but he decided to go completely silent for the couple months before the midterms?I know that  says that investigations aren’t supposed to affect elections, so they try to avoid influencing votes.But at the same time doesn’t NOT having any announcements about the investigation, and waiting extra weeks to indict, actually count as being partisan in favor of Trump? If those fuckers have serious evidence of crimes they should have been charged with already, then keeping the American public in the dark until after the Midterm is still playing politics. Basically, if any big names get hit by Mueller in the next week or two I’d be pretty loving pissed. That would make two major elections in a row where top Republican Federal LEOs made politically motivated decisions that helped the GOP.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:38
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Maybe they're there to bring Sessions home.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:39
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Flaggy posted:Scott Walker finally conceded. Thank god. https://mobile.twitter.com/MuslimIQ/status/1060228222296711168
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Nov 8, 2018 00:39
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Z. Autobahn posted:I mean, those panera voters by and large just gave the Dems the House? Right, so a racist is only good as long as they vote for the democrats?
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Nov 8, 2018 00:39
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Can populated blue states start incentivizing moving to blood red states? If California give a democrat voter 10K to move to a red state in a red district, it could move some needles. It sounds really dumb, but this self sorting that the democrats have done is a huge problem. I left more than $10K on the table to get the gently caress OUT of Blood Red a few years ago. =\ You could probably get people to swing states, but you don't have enough money and inter-state power to make a lot of the deep red areas worth it to anyone mobile enough to make that sort of move in the first place. Nobody's going to voluntarily take their kids from CA and move them to the Alabama education system, as an example, just to benefit the Dems' next electoral chance. Doubly so when [this phrase banished to the Dems Are A Waste thread]. What if you focused on a federal-level restoration of felon voting rights? Probably more likely to work than strategic relocation.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:40
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RasperFat posted:I feel a little They are building a case and were under no obligation to release their information at a time that's convenient for us. This takes years. If he was a Trump partisan Trump would know it, and embrace the investigation he knew would clear him openly. Deified Data fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Nov 8, 2018 |
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Nov 8, 2018 00:40
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Trabisnikof posted:Which is of course ironic, since those rural districts are going to be destroyed by climate change while adaptation in cities will be much more feasible. I actually expect cities to be abandoned when things start getting real bad. There's historical precedent that trade disruptions and mass die-offs also cause people to move to the countryside (partly so they can be more in charge of their own food supply)
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Nov 8, 2018 00:40
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Lightning Knight posted:I don't think your strategy will work, though. Outside of Manchin, red state Democrats have been dropping like flies and they're already garbage centrists on the issues. How much worse do they have to be than Donnelly's "sure we can get rid of birthright citizenship" before it's not worth it anymore for you? I feel like this is getting lost in the noise because I'm not proposing Blue Dogs like Donnelly and McCaskill; it's eminently clear, based on last night, that their approach is a total loser. They all suck and their 'Republican-lite' approach is obviously a dud. I'm talking about hybrid candidates who passionately and aggressively campaign on strong leftist economic policies (like M4A) while walking a delicate line on social issues, including some compromises (like being pro-gun) in exceptionally red states. Sherrod Brown is the closest, though of course by virtue of being in a purplish state he doesn't have to compromise anywhere near as much.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:41
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Koalas Massacre posted:Maybe they're there to bring Sessions home. He must go, his home planet needs him to make more cookies. Z. Autobahn posted:I feel like this is getting lost in the noise because I'm not proposing Blue Dogs like Donnelly and McCaskill; it's eminently clear, based on last night, that their approach is a total loser. They all suck and their 'Republican-lite' approach is obviously a dud. I'm talking about hybrid candidates who passionately and aggressively campaign on strong leftist economic policies (like M4A) while walking a delicate line on social issues, including some compromises (like being pro-gun) in exceptionally red states. I mean I think the problem here is that you believe this will give us more Sherrod Browns and I believe it will give us more Heath Mellos.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:42
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Right, so a racist is only good as long as they vote for the democrats? 1) either your grammar is poorly chosen or you're being an antagonistic rear end in a top hat 2) a racist Democratic rep-or-whatever is better than a racist Republican rep-or-whatever
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Nov 8, 2018 00:42
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RasperFat posted:But at the same time doesn’t NOT having any announcements about the investigation, and waiting extra weeks to indict, actually count as being partisan in favor of Trump? just because Comey did it and hosed us doesn't mean that Mueller, by properly respecting the rules, is actually in the tank for the Republicans
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Nov 8, 2018 00:42
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Can populated blue states start incentivizing moving to blood red states? If California give a democrat voter 10K to move to a red state in a red district, it could move some needles. It sounds really dumb, but this self sorting that the democrats have done is a huge problem. What do you think happened to Nevada and Colorado? We're not paying people to leave, but its definitely happening as people leave for cheaper states
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Nov 8, 2018 00:43
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GreyjoyBastard posted:1) either your grammar is poorly chosen or you're being an antagonistic rear end in a top hat why is #2 true?
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Nov 8, 2018 00:43
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Lightning Knight posted:He must go, his home planet needs him to make more cookies. actually he was banished after a failed coup where he and his followers wanted to enslave the Chocolate Elves
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Nov 8, 2018 00:43
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GreyjoyBastard posted:2) a racist Democratic rep-or-whatever is better than a racist Republican rep-or-whatever This kind of thinking is the reason why Chicago and virtually every major city full of decorum obsessed white liberals is outrageously segregated.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:44
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Deified Data posted:They are building a case and were under no obligation to release their information at a time inconvenient to us. This takes years. Mueller is a lifelong Republican. We can’t forget that. I didn’t say wrap the entire investigation up, I meant more like another Manafort indictment. I could very much see them avoiding making any waves close to the midterms in an attempt to make the investigation look more apolitical.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:44
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Lightning Knight posted:He must go, his home planet needs him to make more cookies. TBH I think it'll probably give us some of both, but again, there is literally no path forward whatsoever for the country or for marginalized people unless the Democrats can win some red Senate seats, and I literally just see no other viable way to do it.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:44
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eke out posted:just because Comey did it and hosed us doesn't mean that Mueller, by properly respecting the rules, is actually in the tank for the Republicans Yes, this. Mueller is extremely A Cop and Lawn Order, but by the same token, he's not going to go one centimeter out of his way to help Noted Criminal Donald Trump.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:45
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Z. Autobahn posted:TBH I think it'll probably give us some of both, but again, there is literally no path forward whatsoever for the country or for marginalized people unless the Democrats can win some red Senate seats, and I literally just see no other viable option. I mean I would argue the counterpoint to your idea is the fact that a number of women of color won in conservative districts and Lee loving Carter deposed the leader of the Republicans in the Virginia legislature.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:46
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https://mobile.twitter.com/GeorgiaDemocrat/status/1060297388609490947
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Nov 8, 2018 00:46
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:This is true of many issues, but I don't feel like we should let right wing framing decide how we pursue our goals. That sounds like an argument for candidates supporting popular gun regulations rather than allowing fundamentally conservative single issue voters to decide the topic is forbidden. That's an argument that every democrat needs to run aggressively on climate change even in blood red districts, since that's an issue with a fundamental good/evil divide, and we should run on the side of truth and humanity over lies and greed. Which, in the long term is obviously the smartest strategy. You think you know hate? Scorn? Disgust? We know nothing of what the future generations will have for us and our kind. The horrors they face are unthinkable to us, but will be life to them. And we've done a solid job documenting the shirking of our responsibility. Being Cassandra is the closest thing to absolution in the popular mind. If you're a young politico now, the best thing you can do for your career decades from now is to doomsay. Our communities can be acting to prepare, if not escape the coming crisis. Bigger than the Iraq War vote, or ACA, or the AMUF vote will be "when did you chance your tune on climate change?" And the earlier the better.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:46
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean I would argue the counterpoint to your idea is the fact that a number of women of color won in conservative districts and Lee loving Carter deposed the leader of the Republicans in the Virginia legislature. i love lee carter so much 
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Nov 8, 2018 00:46
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edit: wrong Cop
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Nov 8, 2018 00:47
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if anything, i expect that after Robert Mueller got appointed to head the investigation into someone who's been skirting justice for decades, he very nearly smiled and celebrated with a glass of warm milk
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Nov 8, 2018 00:47
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https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1060317632631586832
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Nov 8, 2018 00:47
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Main Paineframe posted:Just look at how big minimum wage increases just passed in a bunch of rural deep red states. People want stuff that meaningfully improves their lives. That means good jobs, good wages, good affrodable healthcare, strong unions, and generally pretending that rural voters have any value outside of their potential as an input for industry. Yes, that might be difficult because of rural distrust toward Democrats, but that's all the more reason to take it in a progressive populist direction rather than the pro-corporate angle too many centrist Dems like to follow. Yes; see also the three red states that passed expanded Medicaid yesterday. While succ dems scratch their heads wondering how red-state voters can be so stupid and not support Dems talking weaksauce about "access to affordable healthcare," stuff like mj legalization, increases in the minimum wage, and single-payer healthcare are turning out to be trans-partisan issues.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:47
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Z. Autobahn posted:Yes, it is extremely ghoulish. We live in a deeply ghoulish country and a huge percentage of our countrymen are literal awful ghouls. My proposal is, essentially, tricking those ghouls into looking the other way exactly long enough to disempower them. What's your proposal? Running candidates who appeal to what people want instead of what they're afraid of. The results of this election were plainly clear - dems who veered left performed extremely well compared to historical races (even if they ended up losing). Beto, Gillium, AOC, Abrams, etc (Not to mention an avalanche of lower-profile races). Meanwhile, dems who veered right performed very badly compared to historical races. McCaskill, Donnelly, Bresden, etc. Yes, there are exceptions to this, but the trend is really clear. Your baseline assumption that conservatives will not vote for someone who speaks honestly and in favor of their welfare (as opposed to their power to oppress) is inaccurate and flies in the face of the data from yesterday and several previous elections. Are there are percentage of people who are just 100% ghoulish, racist, and evil? Yeah, but not as many as you make it out to be. And appealing to them or trying to "trick" them is a lost cause, because it turns everyone else away, for good reason. Just ignore them, you don't need the vote of the sociopathic minority.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:48
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean I would argue the counterpoint to your idea is the fact that a number of women of color won in conservative districts and Lee loving Carter deposed the leader of the Republicans in the Virginia legislature. Those are both way smaller scale, though; the smaller and less nationalized the race, the easier it is for an exception to push through. The clear takeaway from last night was the very same thing that benefits Dems in races like the House/legislatures works against them in the Senate. Beto can absolutely win a competitive district pretty much anywhere in the country but he lost a Senate race to Ted loving Cruz. Taffer posted:Running candidates who appeal to what people want instead of what they're afraid of. The results of this election were plainly clear - dems who veered left performed extremely well compared to historical races (even if they ended up losing). Beto, Gillium, AOC, Abrams, etc (Not to mention an avalanche of lower-profile races). Meanwhile, dems who veered right performed very badly compared to historical races. McCaskill, Donnelly, Bresden, etc. Yes, there are exceptions to this, but the trend is really clear. This is pretty misrepresentative. The trends from last night are all over the place and there's no clear universal answer. For one thing, uh, I'm not sure what 'historical races' you're using for AOC? Beto was definitely historic, for sure, as was Abrams, but Gillum's margin is pretty much on point with how Florida has generally been falling. Meanwhile, the single most right-leaning Dem Senator coasted to election easily. More importantly, the actual bulk of Dem pickups last night were by moderate suburban Dems who ran what you'd generally call 'traditional liberal' campaigns, but by no means were aggressively leftist. Z. Autobahn fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Nov 8, 2018 |
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Nov 8, 2018 00:49
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Sundae posted:You could probably get people to swing states, but you don't have enough money and inter-state power to make a lot of the deep red areas worth it to anyone mobile enough to make that sort of move in the first place. Nobody's going to voluntarily take their kids from CA and move them to the Alabama education system, as an example, just to benefit the Dems' next electoral chance. Doubly so when [this phrase banished to the Dems Are A Waste thread]. Seriously. And as someone who is getting out of a deep red area in the relatively near future, why would I stay someplace that is engaged in self-destructive behavior, minimal jobs for skilled workers, low pay, no culture (actual conversation I have had: "There isn't a decent restaurant within five hundred miles of here." "What are you talking about? The Chinese buffet is only a ten mile drive."), and effectively no chance of it changing any time soon? Gee, I can make myself miserable for decades on the off chance that a shift occurs, or I can shift myself to someplace decent now.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:49
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haha quote:"He was releasing everybody," said public defender Steven Halpert, who watched the string of surprising releases. "Apparently he was saying that's what the voters wanted." he meltdown'd himself into doing the right thing
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Nov 8, 2018 00:49
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cheetah7071 posted:I actually expect cities to be abandoned when things start getting real bad. There's historical precedent that trade disruptions and mass die-offs also cause people to move to the countryside (partly so they can be more in charge of their own food supply) This is very situational. For example famine and drought in Somalia has been a major driver of urbanization. This is because when the crops fail and camels die, you have to trade for food, and cities are where you do it. Once you’ve given up your land and livestock it’s difficult to go back to the countryside.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:50
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Lightning Knight posted:This, right here, is why Manchin is indefensible imo. The bare minimum necessary of him is not to vote for Republican Supreme Court justices. He failed that test. gently caress him. And thats why we should put all of our stock in senator Heitkamps overwhelming victory last night.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:51
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Z. Autobahn posted:Those are both way smaller scale, though; the smaller and less nationalized the race, the easier it is for an exception to push through. The clear takeaway from last night was the very same thing that benefits Dems in races like the House/legislatures works against them in the Senate. Beto can absolutely win a competitive district pretty much anywhere in the country but he lost a Senate race to Ted loving Cruz. imo we should just abolish the Senate. ^ lol because Manchin is so useful to the Democratic Party at this point.
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Nov 8, 2018 00:51
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