|
So your argument is basically "Well you called them nazi's so much they became nazis", nice. How would you go about bringing jobs back in a way that they would approve. Reminder that many of the jobs they used to rely on are slowly dying out or becoming obselete. Also just so you know where I am coming from, I am a black jewish dude, you are going to have to try really hard to convice me that their generally horrid social views are something I need to overlook, or that its our fault they feel that way. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Nov 7, 2018 |
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 23:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 03:34 |
|
|
no, his argument is basically "address their material concerns"
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 23:36
|
|
|
Phone posted:no, his argument is basically "address their material concerns" That was part of it, but he made it a point several times in the post that calling them out as racists essentially led them to be racist or double down. Regardless, I asked him how he would suggest we best go about addressing the material matters.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 23:37
|
|
|
BiggerBoat posted:Ok, but you can't help them when they openly and hostiley oppose things that will help them, like affordable healthcare, free education, EBT, and infrastructure investment because Rush Limbaugh told them that's socialism. They worship Supply Side Jesus because their churches and their radios tell them to, suck tax dollars out of blue states, deregulate things like fracking and then blame all their problems on Democrats and poor minorities. nice classism
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 23:41
|
|
|
Give them a reservation where they can reopen the buggy whip factory and leave us alone. Short of pretending it's 1890, and reenacting an obsolete economy, nothing will make these idiots happy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 23:48
|
|
|
Yorkshire Pudding posted:He then told me that they also use a number of surveys in which the fifth question is something that essentially nobody has done like "visited Mars", "traveled back in time", and "been abducted by aliens". All of these things also had about 5% of people admitting to having done these things in the last 10 years. So, you're saying that time-traveling Martians are interfering with our elections?
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 23:56
|
|
|
Phone posted:no, his argument is basically "address their material concerns" That's the summary really. I also really do think you need to understand that they aren't all horrid racists. Hell a lot of them are staunch democrats. It isn't like cities which are vast majority d. A lot of rural white areas are barely majority r. Hate groups actively recruit. Very few people just one day wake up and decide it's time to put on a white pointy robe. It doesn't happen over night and most people are not inherently abhorrent but like I said when you have one group discarding you and telling you to get hosed while another is offering support which one is more attractive? Treating rural white Americans like absolutely all of them are abhorrent, ignorant racists doesn't help and dehumanizes them. Do read a bit about the recruitment tactics of cults. Weird cults, Christian evangelical groups that would elect Hitler if he had an r, and hate groups all go after the same thing. Instead of discarding these people or saying stuff that would stoke their anxiety why not like, you know, talk to them like you actually care about their pain. The reason "Mexicans are coming to steal you jobs" gets their attention isn't the Mexican part it's the job part. A hell of a lot of rural white america is totally in the shitter economically. The right is using that anxiety to spread hate and get votes. The left is ignoring it. poo poo just keeps getting worse for them and the only people talking directly to them are on the right. Right now the not rich should be uniting against the rich and believe it or not but most white people aren't rich. America is collectively getting played and pillaged. ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Nov 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2018 23:58
|
|
|
worth pointing out rural voters in particular in the south aren't monolithically white
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:03
|
|
|
The Muppets On PCP posted:worth pointing out rural voters in particular in the south aren't monolithically white It is, yes. For the record Iive in the north. Its still not super ultra r in the parts I've seen.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:05
|
|
|
Telsa Cola posted:So your argument is basically "Well you called them nazi's so much they became nazis", nice. You can't make racists not racists, and I don't believe in pandering to racists ON THE TOPIC OF RACISM. But. I also think that some of those racists, despite all their awful social views, would vote blue if they could be convinced that the Democrats will get them higher wages or better jobs. Even if they are still racist assholes who think the Democrats give undeserved handouts to lazy welfare queens. Even if they think the Democrats hate cops and love criminals. Even if they think affirmative action is a scam to keep the white man down. We don't have to be best friends with them, or change our racial justice views or our policy positions an inch. But if we send out candidates who can convince poor white people that Democrats' economic policies are the ones that work, we're going to win elections. That's the point of considering "economic anxiety."
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:07
|
|
|
The problem with "address their material concerns" is that it means telling people of color to gently caress off for a couple more decades while we wrangle the crackers. "Economic anxiety" is racism, and their pining for the old timey jobs is them trying to cargo cult Jim Crow back into existence. So how many years of only helping white people, and marginalizing everyone else are we supposed to trade so we can be blessed with the most precious vote of all: a feed lot with 5 racists? I'd rather have a more democratic system than bending over backwards because people who live in an unpopular place and hate other Americans get more representation.pookel posted:You can't make racists not racists, and I don't believe in pandering to racists ON THE TOPIC OF RACISM. But. I also think that some of those racists, despite all their awful social views, would vote blue if they could be convinced that the Democrats will get them higher wages or better jobs. Even if they are still racist assholes who think the Democrats give undeserved handouts to lazy welfare queens. Even if they think the Democrats hate cops and love criminals. Even if they think affirmative action is a scam to keep the white man down. Babylon Astronaut fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Nov 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:08
|
|
|
This isn't mutually exclusive you know. We can help both groups at the same time. It isn't a zero sum game. I'm an advocate of no questions asked guaranteed minimum income because it just like, does a lot for everybody's problems whether they're rural or urban. It isnt likely to happen in America sadly but I can have my opinion drat it. ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Nov 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:12
|
|
|
Circular firing squad, fire!
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:13
|
|
|
It literally is. They see improvements in one, as the other worsening. That's zero sum. Explain how to attract a single issue voter who's issue is "blacks get too much free stuff" I'd love to hear it.
Babylon Astronaut fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Nov 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:14
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:This isn't mutually exclusive you know. We can help both groups at the same time. It isn't a zero sum game. intersectionality is real, and strong, and it's my friend
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:14
|
|
|
Babylon Astronaut posted:It literally is. They see improvements in one, as the other worsening. That's zero sum. And right now the only winners are the billionaires. ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Nov 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:15
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:That's the summary really. I also really do think you need to understand that they aren't all horrid racists. Hell a lot of them are staunch democrats. It isn't like cities which are vast majority d. A lot of rural white areas are barely majority r. Hate groups actively recruit. Very few people just one day wake up and decide it's time to put on a white pointy robe. It doesn't happen over night and most people are not inherently abhorrent but like I said when you have one group discarding you and telling you to get hosed while another is offering support which one is more attractive? First, the left has repeatedly tried talking the rural populations about jobs, however it is not about renewing the traditional jobs (mining, manufacturing,etc) which has often been the biggest, and longest employers in these rural areas. It has been about moving or retraining into different fields. Rural voters don't like this which I can understand (moving sucks in a variety of differenr ways, and families can hold long running job traditions very seriously which is why you get families of miners etc). The conversations have happened enough that it has become a favorite target for Trump for rallies, where he talks about how the big strong factory worker or miner does not want to be trained to make computer parts or whatever. I get it (and i don't if that makes sense). Rural voters are caught in the same economic trap that a poo poo ton of people have been caught in when economies change. Port cities that used to be bustling due to shipbuilding slowly died out during the various shipping crashes that happened. Railstop cities saw the same thing. Some jobs and economic zones wont come back as poo poo develops, it is a loving travesty but there are limited responses to situation. Second, I am well aware on how recruitment tactics work into cults/gangs/hate groups. It works on vulnerabilities and not feeling sense of belonging or purpose in most cases. Joining an organization that actively approves and supports racism is not nor will it ever will be a loving appropriate course of action, and they deserve to criticized to the extreme for it, even if it is understandable. So I ask you again, being a person who lived in these areas. How would you address their concerns?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:17
|
|
|
For sure. I get that here in the physical world, and with careful thought, no, it isn't zero sum. But that's not their calculus. They want another group to suffer. Providing them the suffering has proven electoral rewards.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:19
|
|
|
I'm not advocating joining a hate group nor am i going to but if you want to starve hate groups of recruits then how about dealing with why people are getting sucked in in the first place? Same goes for getting them out. If you close off all the exits then how do they leave? Yeah some people are just monsters looking for any excuse to bust heads but that isn't most people. I think with the increase in automation the best answer is to start with GMI. The traditional jobs aren't coming back but why not hire them to maintain national forests, parks, and the like? They don't have to go anywhere, they get jobs, and hiking trails aren't covered in garbage. There have been initiatives to train them for remote tech jobs and some have bit that and do dev now. There are options but the core is that rich pricks don't want to pay for it. They don't need rural labor any more so they're being discarded. Ending the propaganda from the right wing hate machine would help a lot but how the gently caress do you do that?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:26
|
|
|
anime was right posted:nice classism If you say so, dude. I live in the south too, work a blue collar job and live in a county that votes 75% gop so I'm qualified to speak on this. I hear them talk and listen to the things they say. I feel quite comfortable labeling a significant percentage of them racists too, including the owner of my company and its vp, who are way richer than I am and buy into the Hannity/Limbaugh bs line too. ToxicSlurpee posted:
You're THIS close.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:31
|
|
|
Babylon Astronaut posted:For sure. I get that here in the physical world, and with careful thought, no, it isn't zero sum. But that's not their calculus. They want another group to suffer. Providing them the suffering has proven electoral rewards. I think a lot of that stems from deliberate misinformation and propaganda. Notice how much the American right despises education and any media that disagrees with them. What do tyrants always go after first?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:34
|
|
|
Babylon Astronaut posted:Welcome to 1996. It didn't work. The racist stuff is the whole point, and why they don't think the Dems can run the country. To them, a black person working at the same job as them, IS a failing economy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:35
|
|
|
Also worth pointing out that a big reason these jobs aren't coming back is a direct result of unfettered capitalism, deregulation, supply side economics and GOP policies in general. But, nope. Must be the poor people, the teacher's and immigrants takin all the jobs and the money, livin high on the hog and gettin handouts.Babylon Astronaut posted:It literally is. They see improvements in one, as the other worsening. That's zero sum. Explain how to attract a single issue voter who's issue is "blacks get too much free stuff" I'd love to hear it. Also this. I hear this constantly. To tie it into RWM, please remember that am radio, toa large extent, is all these people loving here and has to permeate. I know it does because I hear the language they use and the arguments they make. Most rural counties in the country pick up very few radio stations but the one with Rush, Sean and Savage is always a loving BLOWTORCH. That itself is, in part, a direct result of GOP policies as well that allowed monopolization of communications companies.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:40
|
|
|
And yes, they are racists. Sure. But they've also been consistently lied to about why they don't have jobs. These are people who think Obama made their healthcare expensive and the free market is magic. They've fallen hard for the Republican con job and they think it's impossible that someone else getting a benefit isn't screwing them over.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:42
|
|
|
Another big chunk of it is just the right wing political machine in general. I met a hell of a lot of people who were single issue abortion voters. The GOP strategy is to fiercely fight a thousand battles on a thousand fronts all the time so you get people who genuinely aren't racist voting to save the babies or to lower taxes. Then the rest of the awful package comes with it. This is also why they keep spreading that "but the dems are the real racists because abortion" bullshit. That reassures that abortion voter that they really aren't a racist just ignore all the voter suppression, support of police brutality, racism, and islamophobia that comes with it, thanks BiggerBoat posted:Also worth pointing out that a big reason these jobs aren't coming back is a direct result of unfettered capitalism, deregulation, supply side economics and GOP policies in general. But, nope. Must be the poor people, the teacher's and immigrants takin all the jobs and the money, livin high on the hog and gettin handouts. The biggest reason is automation. That's why, as much as I understand things like why PA went Trump, it made me seriously cringe. Even though Hillary was totally willing to just toss aside my entire demographic I voted for her anyway because, well...Trump. Just because I understand why rural white people went Trump and swung some key states doesn't mean that I agree with it. It was pretty clear he's a lying sack of poo poo (apologies to sacks that are full of poo poo) for a lot of reasons but even so...even if he manages to bring coal and manufacturing back automation is only ratcheting upward and it isn't going to stop. Work that used to be done by a few thousand dudes with shovels and picks is now done by eight guys and a big rear end machine. Even if the coal mining comes back the jobs won't. Another snag with "well they should just move" is that often times people just plain can't afford to. I got stuck in a casualty of the rust belt for a rather long time and only got out due to a stroke of random, stupid luck. The efforts that do exist to retrain or relocate people (at least from what I've seen) are not exactly big; there isn't a ton of funding and I think the Trump administration is currently burning them down to add insult to his voters. Back home I saw crap all of it myself but I did see a lot of people desperately clinging to any job they could find even if it was just part time for minimum wage. The unemployment was horrid and good jobs just kind of didn't exist. I think a lot of people just genuinely have no idea how bad it can get. Yeah it was Republicans that hosed up the assistance programs which...well, that's just one more in a long list of reasons I don't like them much. My opinion is that we should help the poor and desperate no matter what race they are. ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Nov 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 00:51
|
|
|
Yeah and before I get painted too much with a broad brush, I do have friends that lean conservative and don't think like I do, several of whom I consider very intelligent. I'm not calling the entire south a bunch of dumb brainwashed hicks but the die hards are absolutely unreachable and, yes, considerable percentage of them are hard core evangelicals and racists. I saw lots of racists growing up in Philly too who were equally impenetrable and worthy of my disdain. But gently caress "be more nice to the racists and homophobes" as something I need to adapt as a strategy. The GOP is the party of rude assholes and I feel comfortable saying that considering they worship a big giant orange rear end in a top hat who is a fascist.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 01:48
|
|
|
I think a major issue with plans to address economics is that the republicans have already cornered the market on that debate and furthermore have painted democractic attempts to help as attacks. So now you have to first convince them that no, our policies wont hurt you, then you have to convince them that they will do all the things republicans have just been lying to them saying they will do. This ignoring the fact that a Dem can just take good economic polices, partner it with regressive social ones and swoop in and get the vote. This is really my biggest concern with people saying we should focus on an economic approach. The issue with giving people things like forestery jobs is that they will need retraining and its not going to pay as well, not to mention job availability. These are three huge things that they are going to take issue with and when they can say "gently caress that Im going to vote republican and keep the mine open/bring mining back" you havent really made any ground. Mining, lumber etc are huge employers in these areas that often lack any other major job opportunities, I dont think scrambling to find a bunch of decent paying jobs in these areas is a sane solution, because you wont be able to in most cases. Maybe infrastructure work? But again thats only going to be an option for so many people. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Nov 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 01:52
|
|
|
BiggerBoat posted:But gently caress "be more nice to the racists and homophobes" as something I need to adapt as a strategy. The GOP is the party of rude assholes and I feel comfortable saying that considering they worship a big giant orange rear end in a top hat who is a fascist. Being nice about it means you secretly approve. Arguing with logic doesn't work because they've already justified their behavior to themselves. Providing facts doesn't work because TL;DR, and also fake news. Being an rear end in a top hat is frequently the best way to engage. At the very least you won't be mistaken for sympathizing with a racist.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 02:00
|
|
|
BiggerBoat posted:Yeah and before I get painted too much with a broad brush, I do have friends that lean conservative and don't think like I do, several of whom I consider very intelligent. I'm not calling the entire south a bunch of dumb brainwashed hicks but the die hards are absolutely unreachable and, yes, considerable percentage of them are hard core evangelicals and racists. I saw lots of racists growing up in Philly too who were equally impenetrable and worthy of my disdain. Look at his disapproval rating. It hit 60% recently. I think you'll find that most people do not in fact support Cheeto Benito and are pretty disgusted with him. I'm not saying reach out to the worst I'm saying don't discard them as a whole. Trump got 46.1% of the vote but despite that 60% of Americans are going "wow, gently caress this." His approval rating is in the 30's. I'm sympathetic to a lot of Trump voters because, put simply, they were sold a lie. All it took was "neither party has done anything for you for decades so I'm going to be the first person to talk directly to you. I'm bringing your jobs back!" It was a lie, but...gently caress did it sound good. And no, I didn't vote for Trump. I knew better. As much of an ignorant prick he is he is a very, very good salesman though that is because he's totally willing to say whatever lie he needs to to get what he wants. Now the house of cards is falling down and only the most die hard supporters are still behind him. Republican politicians don't have much of a choice and the right wing hate machine doesn't want to lose its voice so...yeah. Even so a lot of right wing lies from the Obama years are no exposed as, you know, lies so we'll see how things go. The Dems just took back the House so eh. Telsa Cola posted:I think a major issue with plans to address economics is that the republicans have already cornered the market on that debate and furthermore have painted democractic attempts to help as attacks. The biggest issue as far as that goes is messaging; the GOP is united and screaming the same message. The Dems are more fragmented. The GOP, even though it's a lie, is directly saying "we'll JOBS JOBS JOBS JOBS JOBS JOBS JOBS JOBS JOBS JOBS JOBS JOBS" while the Dems...I don't even know what the gently caress. Right wing propaganda is pointing the anxiety at other groups and turning it into hate. The Dems are just going  "times change, what you gonna do, you know?" In either case both parties have been bought and paid for by the super rich so good luck getting any meaningful change out of either as far as economic woes are concerned.One of the reasons a lot of rural white people don't believe that Democratic policies will help them is because for decades they haven't. Neither party has helped them. This is one of the reasons the Tea Party resonated so well; the promise was "we'll cut your taxes so you won't be struggling as much as we'll cut the rich's taxes and I'm sure they'll totally share this time, promise!" while the Democrats had a combined message of "we aren't going to reduce your taxes and we're going to help poor not white people." That...sounds kind of lovely if you're a broke white person who can barely keep the lights on while your town crumbles around you. Then Trump said "we're bringing your jobs back." Yes, it was a lie but this is also why "gently caress the establishment, it's TRUMP TIME, fuckers!" actually worked. The Tea Party was an astroturfed lie created by the establishment so a choice between a long term establishment candidate that hasn't done much for you and a chaos factor that's promising your job back sounded good. A choice between "somebody who won't do anything for you" and "somebody who actually sounds like he might" sold very well. But, again, Trump is a liar and a saleman so...yeah. Like I said before a major core of the issue is that jobs are just plain vanishing to machines. Hence saying "GMI and just like hiring them to do whatever." There just aren't enough jobs to go around anymore and there probably won't be ever again. Even bullshit office jobs are drying up as companies have run out of bullshit office jobs to do. Another reason that there is resistance to retraining is that rural white people have gotten suspicious of that sort of thing as there can be strings attached. I knew a lot of people back home who got dicked over by those; one guy literally got hit by a car and knocked into a coma while he was training to be a welder. The school contacted him and said "because you didn't finish here's a bill. Oh because you were in the hospital and didn't pay here are penalties and interest. gently caress you, pal." In other cases it wasn't free and was scammy "certification" programs that tended to not lead to jobs. Given how much we hear about scam, for profit colleges it's pretty hard to not be cynical. That's when it existed at all. If it happened it wasn't advertised all that much and was severely limited in how many people it would help. To quote that guy at Occupy poo poo IS hosed UP AND BULLSHIT It's a downright bizarre set of circumstances as we're facing a gigantic shortage of, say, nurses but you have hordes of unemployed people desperate for a job that would be happy to do, you know, anything at all that can't afford the training. Just...what? ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Nov 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 02:11
|
|
|
Also the posters saying "well a lot of poor rural voters in X are POC" need to stop. Black voters vote overwhelmingly democratic in the United States because they realize that policies gently caress them over. They arnt who are being talked about when people hammer rural voters for poor choices.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 02:14
|
|
|
My biggest problem is the disturbingly large percentage of "die hards". I get there's always going to be a base, somewhere around 1 out of every 3 people, period. But this is straight up demonstrable lying to our faces every loving day, blatant racism and xenophobia, state run media, white nationalism, anti science, corruption, cozying up to foreign dictators and a celebration of greed, fear, misinformation and being an unapologetic complete rear end in a top hat. Being an rear end in a top hat is a seen as a virtue unto itself. See: Rush Limbaugh, Michale Savage, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingram and everyone we discuss in this thread. To not be an rear end in a top hat is to be a PC snowflake. We're supposed to be mean assholes now. Politicians and pundits are being unapologetic assholes and are only (barely) taken down by hitting on underage girls. There's a war being waged on the 1st amendment while outlets like FOX are excused. People think Trump created this "booming" economy while everyone I know is one hospital visit away from being broke or otherwise leveraged up to their rear end. While someone in this thread accused me of loving classism. I'm down here with the rest of us suckers with little hope for "retirement" in any conventional sense of (HAHA) being able to send my son to college. It's fascism, straight up, and 40% of my country thinks this is perfectly fine. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Nov 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 02:24
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:
My concern is I do not think there is any truthful democratic messaging about the situation that the Dems can use that is not immediately beaten by the Republican hopeful "dream" solution. The possibile, helpful, solutions that are needed will destroy a dearly held onto way of life and that is going to be enough to hold off on voting for them. The attack ads will write themselves. Again, Im going to point the many individuals in the national spotlight who hold on very deeply to identity of being a blue collar worker. Its part of the way they see themselves as true americans. These people are not going to be okay with their jobs going away, they are going not want to be retrained, or moved, or etc. They want their job open and back and they are going to vote for that. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Nov 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 02:30
|
|
|
BiggerBoat posted:My biggest problem is the disturbingly large percentage of "die hards". I get there's always going to be a base, somewhere around 1 out of every 3 people, period. But this is straight up demonstrable lying to our faces every loving day, blatant racism and xenophobia, state run media, white nationalism, anti science, corruption, cozying up to foreign dictators and a celebration of greed, fear, misinformation and being an unapologetic complete rear end in a top hat. A lot of that approval isn't strong and a lot of the weak approval is the result of propaganda or thinking they'll be in the in crowd if fascism happened for real. A lot of it really is just due to propaganda and misinformation. Fox News lies so often that, well, you should bet that they are because it's often enough that that's safe. You'll win more than you lose. Meanwhile they've managed to convince entirely too many people that literally everything else is fake news. I've said before and I'll say it again Trump is not a disease; he is a symptom. The main thing his election did was expose some of the nasty poo poo going on in the background for what it is. I think the right is making one last desperate grab for power and I really really very badly hope they fail in the long run. Their desperate bid to keep Pennsylvania gerrymandered so badly it was mathematically impossible to be worse failed so there's at least that sort of thing. Weren't a few other states unfucked as well? That's part of why the Dems took the house; less district fuckery. Walker just lost Wisconsin, PA reelected Wolf by a pretty fat margin, and you know...some gains. Not out of the woods yet but it's not totally hopeless, yeah? edit: Now that I think about it a lot of it just has to do with how fed up people are in general with the Washington establishment. For better or for worse he's changing things and loving up old power structures. It isn't for the better at all but you know. Telsa Cola posted:My concern is I do not think there is any truthful democractuc messaging about the situation that the Dems can use that is not immediately beaten by the Republican hopeful "dream" solution. The possibile, helpful, solutions that are needed will destroy a dearly held onto way of life and that is going to be enough to hold off on voting for them. One of the main reasons for that is that they were productive jobs that paid quite well. The Dem answer is "well just get another job" while the other jobs, if they exist, pay like poo poo while wages have been stagnating for decades anyway. Hell I have that blue collar identity myself and am doing literally the only office job I'm wiling to do. Even then I'm going insane because it's so clean and corporate and...ugh. But see that's just the thing; the Republicans are offering them a hope and a dream. The Democrats aren't. Granted that blue collar identity is why the Republicans like grinding on the ivory tower intellectual elites thing as much as they can. It sows distrust of the left as a bunch of out of touch academics. These are people that want concrete, workable solutions and, gently caress, they'll help you build them if you want. ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Nov 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 02:34
|
|
|
BiggerBoat posted:
Weird comment and you also might have already thought of it but community colleges can be great in these situations. Classes are dirt cheap compared to normal colleges, colleges and professors love community college student transfers because they have a proved work ethic at a college level, and depending on which community college you get a better chance of transfering to a really good college. I don't mean to tell you how to parent, my family struggled with finaces too and my community college experince really helped me on an academic and personal level and helped me get to a top tier school.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 02:41
|
|
|
Telsa Cola posted:Black voters vote overwhelmingly democratic in the United States because they realize that policies gently caress them over. and a fat lot of good it's done them the past few decades
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 03:43
|
|
|
Telsa Cola posted:Also the posters saying "well a lot of poor rural voters in X are POC" need to stop. Black voters vote overwhelmingly democratic in the United States because they realize that policies gently caress them over. They arnt who are being talked about when people hammer rural voters for poor choices. This is a point I always go back to when the conversation starts to get lost in the weeds (as it seems to be now). This idea that these poor rural whites got sold a pretty lie by Trump and are deserving of our pity doesn't hold up when taken into account that POC in the same states who are just as—if not more—under educated and economically downtrodden as whites didn't have a hard time seeing Trump's lies for what they were.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 04:03
|
|
|
Kraanerg posted:This is a point I always go back to when the conversation starts to get lost in the weeds (as it seems to be now). This idea that these poor rural whites got sold a pretty lie by Trump and are deserving of our pity doesn't hold up when taken into account that POC in the same states who are just as—if not more—under educated and economically downtrodden as whites didn't have a hard time seeing Trump's lies for what they were.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 04:31
|
|
|
pookel posted:My issue with this is that you don't have to think they deserve pity to think that getting their votes could be useful. That conversation isn't had by Democrats about voters of color, because those voters already vote Democrat. I think its a mistake to think Democrats dont think their votes are useful, they do which is why do try to engage them on some level. The issue is that they dont want the policies dems are offering them, or see them as attacks. Also, for the record, I am not super comfortable talking these people into the democractic party if the only thing we can win them over is economic concerns, especially if the democratic party makes it a big concern to court them.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 04:37
|
|
|
You don't convince people to vote for your party by going "lol, gently caress those people." There used to be a lot of black Republicans but the party just kind of assumed that they'd keep voting Republican because Lincoln. Then the Republican party became increasingly hostile to them while the Democrats were actually doing civil rights things. Black voters have been voting heavily D ever since as it's become pretty apparent that the R side of things is openly hostile to their interests. "Vote Democrat or you're a racist and I hate you" isn't going to help. I voted all Democrat this election but my heart wasn't really in it. I almost just stayed home. Part of the reason was all of the "lol I hope we can kill all the white people some day" posts here. I won't be joining a hate group or registering Republican any time soon but every time I see somebody say "gently caress rural white people they're all horrible racists" all I can think is "I'm a scruffy rural white person. Why do you hate me?" Granted I'm more white-adjacent or whitish so if full on white supremacy happens I'll be against the wall too but, eh...that sort of thing isn't exactly motivating.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 04:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 03:34 |
|
|
pookel posted:My issue with this is that you don't have to think they deserve pity to think that getting their votes could be useful. That conversation isn't had by Democrats about voters of color, because those voters already vote Democrat. I would agree their votes are useful inasmuch as any votes are useful being that more = better. The problem is that those voters are tuned up to parse everything in racial terms and democrats are not going to win them over without going full-blown MAGA.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2018 04:48
|
|