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IMO the true test of being Presidential is not how you handle defeat but how you handle victory, for example by immediately lowering expectations before people have even finished voting for you. Nancy Pelosi 2020
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Nov 9, 2018 09:34
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Majorian posted:LOL, what? The left would absolutely back disarmament talks and agreements with North Korea. Yeah and they did under Obama and were roundly ridiculed by the right, and couldn't just make grand meaningless ceremonial gestures pretending they negotiated The Best Deal With No More Weapons to satisfy the left, since they actually pay attention and would see through it. Right now the Left's main opposition to "Trump's Deal" is that it is a meaningless ceremonial gesture that gives Kim legitimacy on the world stage while having no enforcement or monitoring or anything and, if anything, the opinion that they should murder more dissidents and become even more insular and nationalist. Democrats have the same opinion no matter who does it, which is why we didn't get this under Obama, Republicans don't give a poo poo and hate Democrats who are Always Wrong.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:36
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Nancy Pelosi was incredibly good at whipping votes and keeping the caucus united when she was leader, which is very important since Republicans are going to offer very sinister deals and Democrats in Red Districts cannot be lured away from the pack.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:39
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CelestialScribe posted:This is a good point, and yet another reason why politicians are not to be trusted. ... If you're willing to agree that your own set of criteria for legislative achievement you use to critique AOC's qualifications was immaterial, then what on earth was your point in offering it in the first place?
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Nov 9, 2018 09:39
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Kavros posted:... I'm not saying it's immaterial. I'm saying examining a legislative record should be done with care.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:40
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Stereotype posted:Yeah and they did under Obama and were roundly ridiculed by the right, and couldn't just make grand meaningless ceremonial gestures pretending they negotiated The Best Deal With No More Weapons to satisfy the left, since they actually pay attention and would see through it. I think you're mistakenly conflating Democrats with the Left. They're not the same, although there is some overlap. The Left in the U.S., such as it is, largely supports the progress towards North Korean disarmament. We know Trump isn't ACTUALLY responsible for it in any real sense, but we're glad it's happening all the same.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:41
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CelestialScribe posted:This is a good point, and yet another reason why politicians are not to be trusted. This is one of those sad little lies they teach you to further erode what little democracy we have left in this Republic. If all politicians are untrustworthy, why try removing the liars? There are politicians you can trust out there, they're few and far between right now, but for example, I know I can trust Barbara Lee to try to do whats best. Trust isn't blind trust either, I still confirm this trust is warranted by reviewing her actions and if I'm wrong I'll change my mind. But if we can't ever trust our politicians our democracy can't function.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:42
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enraged_camel posted:I’m sure if AOC surrounded herself with smart and competent people, she would make a pretty OK president. The most important thing that the President does is appoint and manage an enormous number of people, which makes your point pretty stupid because it applies to literally every president including President of the United States Donald J. Trump.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:43
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CelestialScribe posted:I'm not saying it's immaterial. I'm saying examining a legislative record should be done with care. You did just completely throw out your own diagnostic criteria .. after it got wrestled out into any words and any definition. I think that you did that helps in reinforcing what I think you should analyze about the way you are presenting your views here: the critiques you have of AOC's qualifications (or lack thereof) were specious and amorphous. The conclusion should not be "Well i guess we just can't trust politicians!" -- it should be that you haven't made a case beyond a personal cynicism, and you ended up with bad criteria. More importantly, the cynicism you have represented here doesn't really serve a purpose the way you are using it. "No politicians are trustworthy" (or any derivative) is just a gross sociopolitical nihilism which only really equips the least trustworthy politicians, but that's a wider issue.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:48
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Majorian posted:I think you're mistakenly conflating Democrats with the Left. They're not the same, although there is some overlap. The Left in the U.S., such as it is, largely supports the progress towards North Korean disarmament. We know Trump isn't ACTUALLY responsible for it in any real sense, but we're glad it's happening all the same. the left also wants them to allow a free press and let people leave if they want without shooting them
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Nov 9, 2018 09:50
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Stereotype posted:The most important thing that the President does is appoint and manage an enormous number of people, which makes your point pretty stupid because it applies to literally every president including President of the United States Donald J. Trump. Yes, the Trump Administration, famously staffed by intelligent, competent people
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Nov 9, 2018 09:51
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Glad that’s been settled. What are you loving kidding me? Sinema is in the lead in Arizona?!
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Nov 9, 2018 09:52
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After reading the last few pages of CelestialScribe's contradictory reasons for disliking AOC I have come to the conclusion she cut him off one time at the bar.
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Nov 9, 2018 09:53
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Failed Imagineer posted:Yes, the Trump Administration, famously staffed by intelligent, competent people yes and look at how everyone not in the cult view his administration
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Nov 9, 2018 10:00
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Stereotype posted:yes and look at how everyone not in the cult view his administration Unfavourably? Make your bad point if you have one
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Nov 9, 2018 10:10
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The bar is raised just high enough to keep those of the servile caste out.
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Nov 9, 2018 10:15
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There's a lot of misplaced rage about Pelosi not being progressive/left enough in this thread. Remember when under her leadership in 2009 the House passed a loving public option and the only reason it didn't go into law was Joe Lieberman's worthless rear end? No, you probably forgot that and can only fixate on how she's speaking vaguely about bipartisanship and not taking a hard line about investigating the Trump admin following this recent election. Pelosi is an extremely sharp politician, pragmatic, and rules the Dem House caucus with an iron fist. She's vastly more competent at getting House Dems to vote in lockstep than Ryan or Boehner could ever dream of. She also is fully aware she's unpopular personally and a lightning rod for incoherent conservative rage. If a Pelosi-lead House votes for funding for Trump's dumb wall in exchange for some lovely concession in an "infrastructure" bill then you can get mad at her. But that's never going to happen. She's going to smile and nod and pretend to play nice while her Dem caucus votes near-unanimously against GOP bullshit. Nancy Pelosi is not generally a strong progressive policy voice, sure. I think that's partly because she's aware of how hated she is in conservative circles, and for good reason. She gets poo poo done. She lets other representatives be strong voices for policy and ideology, she gauges what the caucus will support, and she only ever picks winning battles. She's effective, that's all there is to it. She's really good at reading what the strongest victory she can realistically pull off is, then getting her whole caucus behind that. She's not loving Schumer, I have zero faith Schumer will mount a competent resistance in the Senate.
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Nov 9, 2018 10:18
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I only just heard about Ginsberg being hospitalized (non-US goon here). What has happened since, is she being replaced? 
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Nov 9, 2018 10:37
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Delthalaz posted:Glad that’s been settled. Also, if you haven't been paying attention, Florida is Florida'ing us again. "Broward County", "undercounts", and "column ballot" will be 2018's version of "Miami-Dade County", "hanging chads", and "butterfly ballot".
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Nov 9, 2018 10:37
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Tias posted:I only just heard about Ginsberg being hospitalized (non-US goon here). What has happened since, is she being replaced? Nah, she fell and broke a few ribs but only went to the hospital after she wasn't sleeping comfortably. She'll stay on the court, mostly it's a sharp reminder that she's ancient and despite her being very fit and healthy for her age there's a good likelihood she'll retire in the next couple years.
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Nov 9, 2018 10:40
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Does anyone know what the numbers are for the FL legislature? The NYT is the only place that seems to have those numbers in handy but I already lost my monthly free article limit (which is stupid cause these pages technically shouldn't count as "articles". loving scum  )
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Nov 9, 2018 10:59
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Inferior Third Season posted:Yes, but they're not done counting yet. I don't think anyone has a very good idea of where there are still a lot of uncounted votes, so it's too soon to celebrate. And overseas military mail-in ballots are still coming in; they only needed to be postmarked by November 6th. Yeah I saw that. Psychologically though, being ahead even temporarily is huge at this point since they can't say (like they are in Florida) that this is all over and the dems are just dragging it out.
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Nov 9, 2018 11:25
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Tias posted:I only just heard about Ginsberg being hospitalized (non-US goon here). What has happened since, is she being replaced? She is supposedly stable and she has fractured her ribs before that said, that said she is also 85. I think she will continue to serve if she has the ability to. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 11:27
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Silver already publishing 2020 maps https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-2018-map-looked-a-lot-like-2012-and-that-got-me-thinking-about-2020/ He has the Dems favored on even a neutral map.
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Nov 9, 2018 12:38
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Pellisworth posted:There's a lot of misplaced rage about Pelosi not being progressive/left enough in this thread. Remember when under her leadership in 2009 the House passed a loving public option and the only reason it didn't go into law was Joe Lieberman's worthless rear end? No, you probably forgot that and can only fixate on how she's speaking vaguely about bipartisanship and not taking a hard line about investigating the Trump admin following this recent election. Confronting conservatives and Republicans is what we as a nation need to be doing right now, and Nancy Pelosi went out of her way to publicly poo poo on a small business owner who had the temerity to refuse service to literal monsters. Pelosi isn't the right person to resist fascism- because much like Schumer the only thing she really understands how to do is to enable it. Just like Schumer- Pelosi believes in restoring a status quo that never worked for average Americans in the first place and is never coming back again anyways in the second place. Her attempts to drag us back to the old status quo will only enable the rise of fascism. Sorkinesque hagiographies about the parliamentary prowess of Pelosi are not actually useful in the real world right now. We need someone who can fight fascism, and that abso-loving-lutely isn't Nanci Pelosi. Edit: one more thing. Getting all self-righteous and snippy because you think the only people who criticize Pelosi do so from a position of ignorance is just sheer privilege talking. Pelosi is a competent manager but she's no leader, and right now what we need in Democratic Leadership are some loving leaders. Schumer and Pelosi and Hillary Clinton are all people who fundamentally do not understand what leadership is and have mistaken their knowledge of management for leadership. They are barely even capable of cargo culting leadership, never mind dispensing the real thing in a time of crisis. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 12:43
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Also gonna put out there that we need leadership from someone who isn't 78 goddamn years old.
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Nov 9, 2018 12:49
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Drone posted:Also gonna put out there that we need leadership from someone who isn't 78 goddamn years old. Yeah, the leadership for the dems is really old. New blood is required. Thankfully a lot of young people have been ushered into the house. Ocasia-Cortez because the youngest congresswoman ever followed hours later by the new youngest congresswoman ever.
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Nov 9, 2018 12:52
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top 3 house dems are all in their mid to late 70s no? lol
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Nov 9, 2018 12:55
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I don't follow the House very much, and can probably only name a scant handful of Democratic congressmen/congresswomen with national prominence with sufficient credentials who could take over and who also don't belong in a retirement home. Adam Schiff? Ehhh
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Nov 9, 2018 12:56
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The next president is this 21 year old golden retriever, and he accepts biscuits and will bark at journalists' questions at every press conference.
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Nov 9, 2018 12:57
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Prester Jane posted:
You don't go to war with what you want, you go with what you have. Right now, Dems absolutely need House and Senate leaders that can keep the caucus voting as a block. You've got Pelosi that's capable of that and that's it. Stop complaining about her and start requesting she teaches a successor or two the art of having your representative's unmentionables in a steel vice (say, Occasio-Cortez) so replacing her is realistic in two to four years.
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Nov 9, 2018 12:58
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Omobono posted:You don't go to war with what you want, you go with what you have. Or she could just continue to serve as whip and turn the speaker position over to someone scrappier.
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Nov 9, 2018 12:59
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Mordaedil posted:The next president is this 21 year old golden retriever, and he accepts biscuits and will bark at journalists' questions at every press conference. an improvement
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Nov 9, 2018 13:00
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Omobono posted:You don't go to war with what you want, you go with what you have. How loving dare I demand better from my leaders. I have to recognize that things are just the way things are and I've got to work with the status quo as is instead of demanding better. I guess I just have to recognize that Nancy Pelosi is the bestest ever at being the house leader and is the only option we've got right now so we've all got to ignore her flaws/demonstrated incompetence and instead embrace her fathomless wisdom. I guess I'm just too ignorant and uneducated to have realized these things on my own. Thank goodness you're here to scold people like me into getting into line. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 13:03
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I think most of this board is super lovely to Pelosi but I also think we need a new speaker. Times have changed, the party has changed, and we need a new face. Pelosi is still super useful to have around and did her job well during the Obama years. She should remain in the leadership mix but have someone else take the top spot. Her unwillingness to do that at 78 is pretty bad though. I'd generally support a challenge to her if it came from the left. I'm not supporting Tim loving Ryan though. I guess I just feel like a lot of the venom for her is misplaced. We can want someone new without hating her. Hellblazer187 fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 13:09
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Ice Phisherman posted:Or she could just continue to serve as whip and turn the speaker position over to someone scrappier. Prester Jane posted:How loving dare I demand better from my leaders. I have to recognize that things are just the way things are and I've got to work with the status quo as is instead of demanding better. Who, then? Pelosi is exceptionally good at being a punching bag / lightning rod, and aside from Maxine Waters (who is a sidegrade at best), I can't think of many people up to taking that kind of punishment.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:12
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Radical thought here guys. What if an octogenarian known mostly for her parliamentary prowess is just fundamentally not an individual capable of leading a resistance against actual fascism. Like...... it's really telling that certain posters want to drone on and on about Pelosi's parliamentary abilities as if that is somehow a substitute for being an actual leader. A leader is capable of creating a common Vision in the mind of their subjects and motivating them towards working towards bringing that vision into reality. Bernie Sanders has a vision, Nancy Pelosi does not. Being able to crush balls and force compliance behind the scenes is not even vaguely in the same category as actual leadership. Hell, even loving Trump understands this basic tenet of leadership. While Trump does not actually present a coherent vision of the future, he's able to convince his followers that he does. And look at who is currently dominating our society versus who currently isn't. We need a leader, not a parliamentarian obsessed with 
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Nov 9, 2018 13:13
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Omobono posted:You don't go to war with what you want, you go with what you have. Leaving the fact that you're falling back on a literal Rumsfeld quote to justify your opinion aside, Pelosi has been in her position for over a decade by now, so if she hasn't trained a successor or five already then that's worthy of condemnation in itself.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:13
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The speaker doesn't need to be a member of the house. I previously suggested Obama, since it would tremendously gently caress with Trump. But he's also too invested in decorum. We need a fighter in the speaker chair. #basta
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Nov 9, 2018 13:16
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Drone posted:Also gonna put out there that we need leadership from someone who isn't 78 goddamn years old. So Bernie needs to gently caress off too? 
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