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Cerebral Bore posted:Leaving the fact that you're falling back on a literal Rumsfeld quote to justify your opinion aside, Pelosi has been in her position for over a decade by now, so if she hasn't trained a successor or five already then that's worthy of condemnation in itself. That is another excellent point that really damns the Democrats the more you think about it. The current Democratic Leadership has made sure that there is no younger generation of leaders coming up to replace them. This is quite literally a lower level of competence than what one finds in an average Boy Scout Troop.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:16
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sean10mm posted:So Bernie needs to gently caress off too? Kinda yeah 
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Nov 9, 2018 13:19
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If there's a 1% chance that Pelosi sucks we must treat it as a absolute certainty
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Nov 9, 2018 13:19
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Cerebral Bore posted:Leaving the fact that you're falling back on a literal Rumsfeld quote to justify your opinion aside, Pelosi has been in her position for over a decade by now, so if she hasn't trained a successor or five already then that's worthy of condemnation in itself. Well, one of her trainees got ousted by AOC which was totally lol
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Nov 9, 2018 13:20
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Hi Nancy Pelosi is one of the most badass women in America and the fact that the Republican party absolutely loving hates her guts should probably tell you something about how effective she has been.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:21
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quote:No, you probably forgot that and can only fixate on how she's speaking vaguely about bipartisanship and not taking a hard line about investigating the Trump admin following this recent election. I disagree with bringing back PAYGO, which is by far the worst thing Speaker Pelosi will have done. It means if Democrats take back the White House and then Republicans make gains in the midterms to take back a legislative chamber in 2023, they'll be saying "our hands are tied" as Republicans shut down the government, having coiled the rope around their own wrists. Aside from taking impeachment off the table for Bush, Kavanaugh, and Trump, there was also this. https://twitter.com/sarahdwire/status/994595029317451776 In an environment where 1/3 of House members go through the revolving door, compared to 5% in the 1970s, there was also this. Adweek on May 15, 2018 posted:Caitlin O’Neill, Chief Of Staff For Nancy Pelosi, Joins Facebook’s Office In Washington, D.C. Pelosi hasn't let her foreign policy stances affect her leadership, but I'd still prefer Rep. Barbara Lee as Speaker for messaging purposes because I don't think we should get involved in Syria. Speaker Pelosi's April 13, 2018 press release on Syria posted:
but PAYGO is by far the most important to me. Prester Jane posted:Edit: one more thing. Getting all self-righteous and snippy because you think the only people who criticize Pelosi do so from a position of ignorance is just sheer privilege talking. Pelosi is a competent manager but she's no leader, and right now what we need in Democratic Leadership are some loving leaders. Schumer and Pelosi and Hillary Clinton are all people who fundamentally do not understand what leadership is and have mistaken their knowledge of management for leadership. They are barely even capable of cargo culting leadership, never mind dispensing the real thing in a time of crisis.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:21
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Prester Jane posted:That is another excellent point that really damns the Democrats the more you think about it. The current Democratic Leadership has made sure that there is no younger generation of leaders coming up to replace them. This is quite literally a lower level of competence than what one finds in an average Boy Scout Troop. This isn't just how the democrats work. The republicans do this as well. It's called seniority and much of our elected and unelected positions operate that the longer you've been in congress, the more power you get over stuff like committees and seats are pulled out for them in party leadership. Getting rid of seniority is a difficult ask in a system that's heavily biased in favor of it.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:21
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AlBorlantern Corps posted:If there's a 1% chance that Pelosi sucks we must treat it as a absolute certainty She has routinely gone well out of her way to publicly demonstrate that she does in fact suck. Hard. Herstory Begins Now posted:Hi Nancy Pelosi is one of the most badass women in America and the fact that the Republican party absolutely loving hates her guts should probably tell you something about how effective she has been. Her status as a badass has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not she can lead. Hillary Clinton is the literal Antichrist to the right-wing and she has no concept of leadership either. Also she's not a badass. She's a ruthless political operator whose primary agenda is supporting an entrenched political elite.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:23
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sean10mm posted:So Bernie needs to gently caress off too? Yes, unfortunately.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:24
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Ice Phisherman posted:This isn't just how the democrats work. The republicans do this as well. It's called seniority and much of our elected and unelected positions operate that the longer you've been in congress, the more power you get over stuff like committees and seats are pulled out for them in party leadership. I may be mistaken but I was under the impression that even in seniority systems it's routine to be constantly training/preparing the next set of leadership figures.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:25
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GoluboiOgon posted:this picture is from 2014, obama's dhs secretary is being given a tour of a child camp. That is the general immigrant processing facility in McAllen Texas, and while there are kids sent there prior to being remanded to HHS, that is not the sole function of this facility. No one spends more than a week in this place.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:25
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Live5News SC reports active shooter in a NC School. E: Topsail High School
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Nov 9, 2018 13:27
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Prester Jane posted:I may be mistaken but I was under the impression that even in seniority systems it's routine to be constantly training/preparing the next set of leadership figures. Probably, though I have no clue. One of the problems that I see in history rearing its head over and over again is a lack of willingness to transfer leadership from one person to another. It's really common in autocratic systems, but it happens in democracies too. Some people just love the work too much (or power too much) to even consider transferring authority to someone else. I'm not saying it's the case, but it does happen.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:28
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https://twitter.com/FiveThirtyEight/status/1060727418984513536
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Nov 9, 2018 13:30
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I dunno if you guys remember, but part of why the AOC thing was big was that she knocked out Crowley, the guy who the septegenarian triad were sort of half heartedly signaling would be their successor
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Nov 9, 2018 13:32
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Hi Nancy Pelosi is one of the most badass women in America and the fact that the Republican party absolutely loving hates her guts should probably tell you something about how effective she has been. Unlike other prominent Democratic politicians whose guts the GOP doesn't hate, such as
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Nov 9, 2018 13:33
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sean10mm posted:So Bernie needs to gently caress off too? Bernie should have been spending his time grooming a successor who is young, appealing and capable in carrying forward his ideas. Bernie isn't going to survive a presidency, it would be the last thing he did.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:33
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I'm not saying dems bad but if the US is in such a tragic loving shitheap right now the last thing you guys need to be doing is allowing the same milquetoast people who do bear some of the responsibility for why it is how it is another chance to make it even worse. With the current leadership there is no path to fixing things.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:37
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Does the House really produce much in the way of broader party leadership for either side? Ryan was a useless shitbird even from a GOP perspective. "Good" House leaders seem to mainly just herd cats and the bad ones are just hate sinks for both sides.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:38
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lemonadesweetheart posted:I'm not saying dems bad but if the US is in such a tragic loving shitheap right now the last thing you guys need to be doing is allowing the same milquetoast people who do bear some of the responsibility for why it is how it is another chance to make it even worse. With the current leadership there is no path to fixing things. I too agree that republicans should never be elected again.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:39
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Mordaedil posted:The next president is this 21 year old golden retriever, and he accepts biscuits and will bark at journalists' questions at every press conference. In the primaries he's going to challenged from the left by a 8yo tortoiseshell cat who shits in a litter box with CAPITALISM written on the side. Critics run a nationwide ad campaign that if Mrs Mittens is elected we will die in nuclear hellfire due to her penchant for rolling around on keyboards. Her support increases as a result.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:42
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Mordaedil posted:The next president is this 21 year old golden retriever, and he accepts biscuits and will bark at journalists' questions at every press conference. His campaign fell apart when a black journalist entered the media room and he started growling at him. Is President Dog a racist?
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Nov 9, 2018 13:45
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Vahakyla posted:Live5News SC reports active shooter in a NC School. Yeeep. Came in early ahead of students I guess supposedly? I didn’t realize what was going on until I saw the cops going down Market on the way to dropping the kids off for school.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:47
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I'm in the UK and can only observe US politics from a distance, but I would say that unabashed, unashamed economic populism has worked extremely well for Corbyn's Labour. Constantly pointing out how the right wing is loving up, but also tossing out left wing policy positions that poll well every so often - basically fronting as if they're the government in waiting, and keeping those policies in the news as much as possible (given our media's impossibly hostile attitude towards Labour) This is probably a lot easier over here then it is over there - there are fewer moving parts and cats to herd than with your system. It's quite an abstract (and not particularly helpful) thing to say, but there's an energy and momentum here that seems to be lacking with the democrats, and that really needs to be fixed, and quickly.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:47
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https://twitter.com/ShaneGoldmacher/status/1060585618449797121
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Nov 9, 2018 13:52
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sean10mm posted:Does the House really produce much in the way of broader party leadership for either side? Ryan was a useless shitbird even from a GOP perspective. "Good" House leaders seem to mainly just herd cats and the bad ones are just hate sinks for both sides. In reality Paul Ryan is worthless chum, we all know that. But he was somehow able to craft an image as a serious person and a leader and a visionary. If we had someone on the D side with the same skill at image crafting, but instead actually serious and good, that would be hugely beneficial for us. Unfortunately I don't see that person right now, but they may exist.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:53
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sean10mm posted:Does the House really produce much in the way of broader party leadership for either side? Ryan was a useless shitbird even from a GOP perspective. "Good" House leaders seem to mainly just herd cats and the bad ones are just hate sinks for both sides. They IMMEDIATELY get overshadowed once your party takes the White House or Senate Majority though, because the House is the most plebeian thing in existence 2020 spoilers here, but suburban white voters are going to be a pivotal demographic in a lot of states.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:55
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Hellblazer187 posted:In reality Paul Ryan is worthless chum, we all know that. But he was somehow able to craft an image as a serious person and a leader and a visionary. If we had someone on the D side with the same skill at image crafting, but instead actually serious and good, that would be hugely beneficial for us. Unfortunately I don't see that person right now, but they may exist. That image lasted for maybe 2 days, and only worked on republicans, who view Trump as a serious person, leader, and visionary. It is much easier to lie and be a leader for people who will follow you know matter what then making the entire rest of the population think you are perfect like Democrats have to.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:56
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Hellblazer187 posted:In reality Paul Ryan is worthless chum, we all know that. But he was somehow able to craft an image as a serious person and a leader and a visionary. If we had someone on the D side with the same skill at image crafting, but instead actually serious and good, that would be hugely beneficial for us. Unfortunately I don't see that person right now, but they may exist. 200some people continuing on in the senate, there's no way Pelosi is our only option for "fight with what you have."
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Nov 9, 2018 13:59
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Hellblazer187 posted:In reality Paul Ryan is worthless chum, we all know that. But he was somehow able to craft an image as a serious person and a leader and a visionary. If we had someone on the D side with the same skill at image crafting, but instead actually serious and good, that would be hugely beneficial for us. Unfortunately I don't see that person right now, but they may exist. He didn't craft that image "somehow", credulous liberal rubes at news sites like Vox crafted it for him. You won't get the same treatment for a left-wing serious person because what they're saying will be inherently treated like a joke. Cutting social services in order to funnel money into billionaire and millionaire pockets is mature and thoughtful, a hard choice. Helping the poor and sick is childish fantasy.
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Nov 9, 2018 13:59
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Suburban white voters are a pivotal demographic solely because they're the only one that either party actually tries to win over.
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Nov 9, 2018 14:01
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Ralepozozaxe posted:That image lasted for maybe 2 days, and only worked on republicans, who view Trump as a serious person, leader, and visionary. It is much easier to lie and be a leader for people who will follow you know matter what then making the entire rest of the population think you are perfect like Democrats have to. You have this upside down and backwards. Trump and Ryan at least understood the importance of presenting a vision of the future to get people on board- the modern democratic party has absolutely no vision for the future and actively sperms the very notion that they should*. It's not that Republicans are somehow magically easier to lead, it's that Republican leadership is actually trying to do the leadership things that Democratic Leadership flatly rejects. *"The status quo but with tepid improvements" is not a vision of the future. And it's certainly not an idea you're ever going to get a significant number of people to rally around.
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Nov 9, 2018 14:02
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Dogging on AOC for lack of gov't knowledge is almost exactly like a company hiring for an entry-level position then requiring 5 years of work experience to apply. A LOT of people, myself included, are pretty OK with smart, driven people with a strong ideological backbone running for and winning legislative seats. The entire concept of the House is people who REPRESENT the people. I don't feel particularly represented by a 70 year old Yale Lawyer.
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Nov 9, 2018 14:02
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https://mobile.twitter.com/irin/status/1060880377902841856
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Nov 9, 2018 14:05
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It is in no way an analogous situation but this reminds me of the hypocrisy of the tea party in 2010 whose newly elected members flipped out when they learned during new member orientation that federal employee health benefits take a few weeks to kick in.. Just a happy thought for the thread. But for AOC surely there is another rep or senator who has a spare bedroom that they will offer to her and her partner to use. I totally understand that she might not take them up on the offer and respect her for it. Shifty Pony fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 14:05
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Barry Foster posted:I'm in the UK and can only observe US politics from a distance, but I would say that unabashed, unashamed economic populism has worked extremely well for Corbyn's Labour. Constantly pointing out how the right wing is loving up, but also tossing out left wing policy positions that poll well every so often - basically fronting as if they're the government in waiting, and keeping those policies in the news as much as possible (given our media's impossibly hostile attitude towards Labour) Honestly, I think the big difference was simply how the leadership election worked out versus 2016 primary, Corbyn was against a pretty weak field of candidates. Also, the UK Labour party as a parliamentary party is generally more centralized than the Democrats and even then Corbyn had to put town multiple rebellions.
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Nov 9, 2018 14:05
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not a cult posted:He didn't craft that image "somehow", credulous liberal rubes at news sites like Vox crafted it for him. You won't get the same treatment for a left-wing serious person because what they're saying will be inherently treated like a joke. Cutting social services in order to funnel money into billionaire and millionaire pockets is mature and thoughtful, a hard choice. Helping the poor and sick is childish fantasy. Vox? Where has Vox helped craft that image? NYT, CNN, yes, absolutely. But I'm going to have to disagree about vox without some links. I know Chapo hates them but that's not enough for me. Edit: overall I agree our media ecosystem helped Ryan and conservatives in general, and no leftist will get the exact same treatment. I do think someone might be able to figure out how to better navigate our hosed up media, though. Hellblazer187 fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Nov 9, 2018 |
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Nov 9, 2018 14:05
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Hellblazer187 posted:In reality Paul Ryan is worthless chum, we all know that. But he was somehow able to craft an image as a serious person and a leader and a visionary. If we had someone on the D side with the same skill at image crafting, but instead actually serious and good, that would be hugely beneficial for us. Unfortunately I don't see that person right now, but they may exist. I promise no one thought of him that way, he's been a butt-monkey of the republican party for years. Do you not remember the very long-lived jihad beard meme? This serious-person image-crafting is a Sorkinesque delusion that was never really a thing.
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Nov 9, 2018 14:09
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This lady loving rules and the Supreme Court should just be nine clones of her.
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Nov 9, 2018 14:11
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My hot take on Democratic leadership is that they should give obstruction and constitutional hardball a try given how well it has worked out for the Republicans. Pelosi's first message out of the midterms was "bipartisan solutions" and Trump's response was setting fire to the DOJ and calling for the Senate to investigate Democratic Representatives.Hellblazer187 posted:Vox? Where has Vox helped craft that image? NYT, CNN, yes, absolutely. But I'm going to have to disagree about vox without some links. I know Chapo hates them but that's not enough for me. I would never have imagined I'd end up going to bat for Vox of all things, but Yglesias at least has consistently and constantly heaped scorn on the image of Paul Ryan as some policy wonk.
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Nov 9, 2018 14:11
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