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Paradoxish posted:It's always been a good time to advocate for UHC, though. Democrats could have advocated strongly for UHC in 2008 while still passing whatever they could have passed. Literally just saying "we're passing this now because we have to but we are 100% committed to a true UHC system and understand that this isn't it" would have gone a long, long way with a lot of folks. I will sign a universal health-care bill into law by the end of my first term as president that will cover every American and cut the cost of a typical family’s premium by up to $2,500 a year. Barack Obama Cutting, Years, Law Barack Obama (2009). “Barack Obama: Speeches on the Road to the White House”
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Nov 10, 2018 19:51
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Actually using the bully pulpit of the presidency to advocate for good policy, instead of bad policy, would have been a good first step. The fiction is that Dems wanted better than Obamacare and we’re forced to settle, when in fact they created pretty much the exact law they wanted. Do you understand why someone might advocate for a policy that can actually pass, rather than arguing that their bill is a trash compromise but we should pass it anyway? I don't recall there being tons of time to debate about various possible bills in committee. I remember ACA barely squeaking through Congress in time as it was.
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Nov 10, 2018 19:51
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Lightning Knight posted:
I think it's a machine recount, then if that recount is within a certain margin it goes to a hand recount.
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Nov 10, 2018 19:52
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Democratic messaging on M4A sucks dicks, in many departments. However they do not have a nationwide, singular news organization to follow marching orders to get that message across, either, even if they had the will to.
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Nov 10, 2018 19:52
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Space Gopher posted:Right now "Medicare for All" is so ill-defined it means absolutely nothing I don't think this is very accurate, there's explicitly bills that have dozens of cosponsors, it has fairly well-understood policy architecture as far as I'm aware. Admittedly, I am too dumb to understand that policy, but it exists in both houses of Congress.
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Nov 10, 2018 19:52
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Pakled posted:So the Democrats should have used the short window where they had the votes to do something about health care to instead bluster about a policy that didn't have enough support in their own caucus to actually pass and not actually change anything? If the caucus isn't on board with helping the American people, I'd argue that's a huge part of the problem in and of itself and those people do not deserve voter support. But yes, a media blitz should have been initiated to show Americans the possibilities, how it has worked for decades in every other first world country, etc etc. Health care could have been the crucible Dems used to burn away Republicans but it turns out Obama didn't actually want anything but a handout to insurance companies and yet we are all supposed to nod wisely and say "yep, nothing could have been done."
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Nov 10, 2018 19:54
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PerniciousKnid posted:Do you understand why someone might advocate for a policy that can actually pass, rather than arguing that their bill is a trash compromise but we should pass it anyway? believe it or not there is a middle ground between these.
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Nov 10, 2018 19:54
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Grapplejack posted:Macron regularly compares himself to a king, so quisling isn't the term I'd use. More like "upstart monarchist". monarchists are just proto quislings
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Nov 10, 2018 19:55
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freckle posted:monarchists just proto quislings See King Edward VIII, for example.
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Nov 10, 2018 19:56
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Stexils posted:believe it or not there is a middle ground between these. We got the middle ground. It's ACA and it loving sucks aside from the pre-existing conditions clause
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Nov 10, 2018 19:56
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KickerOfMice posted:Democratic messaging on M4A sucks dicks, in many departments. However they do not have a nationwide, singular news organization to follow marching orders to get that message across, either, even if they had the will to. What about MSNBC or whatever? I don't know much about American news networks, but isn't that typically viewed as a mouthpiece for the liberal establishment?
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Nov 10, 2018 19:56
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:What about MSNBC or whatever? I don't know much about American news networks, but isn't that typically viewed as a mouthpiece for the liberal establishment?
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Nov 10, 2018 19:57
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:What about MSNBC or whatever? I don't know much about American news networks, but isn't that typically viewed as a mouthpiece for the liberal establishment? MSNBC hired Megan Kelly lmao
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Nov 10, 2018 19:57
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Space Gopher posted:Right now "Medicare for All" is so ill-defined it means absolutely nothing - just like "universal healthcare" was very popular until the insurance industry and right-wing media spun up the propaganda machine to turn even the tiniest, most non-controversial bits of any actual proposal into "the government wants to kill you and your family." Remember how "maybe we should help pay for end-of-life counseling and hospice care" got turned into "death panels"? One reason that large segments of the healthcare sector is terrified of any sort of MFA or even the public opinion is that while defrauding private insurance companies gets you at most sued with an eventual settlement, defrauding Medicare or more generally the government gets your practice banned from being reimbursed for medical care (usually instantly forcing bankruptcy) and gets people thrown in jail.
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Nov 10, 2018 19:58
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:What about MSNBC or whatever? I don't know much about American news networks, but isn't that typically viewed as a mouthpiece for the liberal establishment? Low ratings. Plus, when you’re liberal, you don’t get to resort to cheap tactics like making your female anchors wear miniskirts and giggle at all the boys being boys
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Nov 10, 2018 19:58
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Peter Daou Bundy posted:democrats should stop that ridiculous strategy of ever trying to take republican votes, a republican will vote for a dead body with an R next to it before even the biggest blue dog. if they could learn, they wouldn't still be liberal democrats
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Nov 10, 2018 19:58
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corn in the bible posted:MSNBC hired Megan Kelly lmao i thought that was regular NBC?
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Nov 10, 2018 19:58
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Ate My Balls Redux posted:If the caucus isn't on board with helping the American people, I'd argue that's a huge part of the problem in and of itself and those people do not deserve voter support. I think 20 million American's would disagree with you. And no offense, the media bungled ACA coverage by basically embracing every right wing talking point about. People love the idea of UHC and M4A and I do too. But if you think that for one second when the Democrats get close to passing it that popularity for that bill will poll below 50 percent, I think you have another thing coming. It's a bit like DACA or dare I say the ACA. People love the ideas, they just hate the ideas costing them anything ever.
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Nov 10, 2018 19:59
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:What about MSNBC or whatever? I don't know much about American news networks, but isn't that typically viewed as a mouthpiece for the liberal establishment? Oh, it absolutely is. Unlike FOX news, they're still on the track of having roundtables for conflict/ratings. FOX on the other hand, is at this point, masturbatory, state network TV.
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Nov 10, 2018 19:59
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https://twitter.com/joyce_karam/status/1061327346362392576?s=21 So what are the chances that Trump is sundowning extra hard today, and his handlers thought it would look worse if he was publicly recorded than the look of throwing a tantrum in his hotel room?
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Nov 10, 2018 19:59
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:What about MSNBC or whatever? I don't know much about American news networks, but isn't that typically viewed as a mouthpiece for the liberal establishment? The headline morning show on MSNBC was one of the biggest supporters of Trump during his primary.
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Nov 10, 2018 19:59
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:What about MSNBC or whatever? I don't know much about American news networks, but isn't that typically viewed as a mouthpiece for the liberal establishment? lol MSNBC's flagship show is hosted by a loving former republican congressman.
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Nov 10, 2018 20:00
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corn in the bible posted:MSNBC hired Megan Kelly lmao No. NBC did. She just got her contract terminated too because they couldn’t move her to MSNBC as that channel’s audience would never accept her.
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Nov 10, 2018 20:01
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Remember Keith Olbermann? e: I mix up NBC and MSNBC sometimes which I think is understandable
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Nov 10, 2018 20:01
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Well, the question was "is is viewed as a liberal mouthpiece," and the answer to that is yes.
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Nov 10, 2018 20:01
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Mooseontheloose posted:I think 20 million American's would disagree with you. And no offense, the media bungled ACA coverage by basically embracing every right wing talking point about. People love the idea of UHC and M4A and I do too. But if you think that for one second when the Democrats get close to passing it that popularity for that bill will poll below 50 percent, I think you have another thing coming. that's because the ACA is really loving complicated and at best only lets you *buy* insurance. getting to see the doctor for free or a nominal fee of 5 dollars is way harder to spin. the counter to right wing propoganda is and always has been politics that demonstrably help people that don't require a bunch of hoops to jump through.
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Nov 10, 2018 20:01
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PerniciousKnid posted:Do you understand why someone might advocate for a policy that can actually pass, rather than arguing that their bill is a trash compromise but we should pass it anyway? Why would they call their bill trash? The ACA helped a ton of people (including me, a self-employed person who would be priced out of insurance without it) and US healthcare was and still is in a legitimate crisis. It is possible to admit that what you are currently doing is not your final goal without calling your efforts total garbage.
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Nov 10, 2018 20:01
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RasperFat posted:https://twitter.com/joyce_karam/status/1061327346362392576?s=21 I actually had the thought the other day that DST might mean he's sundowning even earlier than usual. Throw an overseas trip into the mix, and whooo boy
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Nov 10, 2018 20:02
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Bill Maher is viewed as a liberal mouthpiece too and lol, just lol
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Nov 10, 2018 20:03
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KickerOfMice posted:Well, the question was "is is viewed as a liberal mouthpiece," and the answer to that is yes. As viewed by conservatives, not liberals themselves, though.
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Nov 10, 2018 20:03
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PerniciousKnid posted:Do you understand why someone might advocate for a policy that can actually pass, rather than arguing that their bill is a trash compromise but we should pass it anyway? You know advocacy can be aspirational right? Like, you don’t require votes to advocate for anything? Advocate for good things, accept marginal improvements when they’re the best you can do, and remind everyone of who is standing in the way of the very good things you’re advocating for.
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Nov 10, 2018 20:03
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RasperFat posted:https://twitter.com/joyce_karam/status/1061327346362392576?s=21 I think we are at the point of officially admitting he is an extremely fragile old man and that getting his awful body wet is a legitimate threat killing him.
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Nov 10, 2018 20:03
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Peter Daou Bundy posted:democrats should stop that ridiculous strategy of ever trying to take republican votes, a republican will vote for a dead body with an R next to it before even the biggest blue dog. Some of us live in states that are majority Republican, so not competing to flip Republicans is the same as not competing at all.
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Nov 10, 2018 20:04
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RasperFat posted:https://twitter.com/joyce_karam/status/1061327346362392576?s=21 Doesn't sundowning actually happen around sundown... *checks time zones* Narrator: They did.
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Nov 10, 2018 20:04
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Deteriorata posted:As viewed by conservatives, not liberals themselves, though. Hey, I just meant the general public. 
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Nov 10, 2018 20:04
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Crow Jane posted:I actually had the thought the other day that DST might mean he's sundowning even earlier than usual. Throw an overseas trip into the mix, and whooo boy Also, being handed a major loss in the midterms, despite his assurances of a "red wave". All three of those are a recipe for disaster.
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Nov 10, 2018 20:04
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Fox News is also run competently by evil people who don’t screw up often. NBC and MSNBC, on the other hand, are regularly screwing up. Just read about Matt Lauer, Ann Curry, or Megyn Kelly. That crap would never happen at Fox News and become public knowledge to the degree that those fiascos did. Too many factions and not enough common ideology at NBC.
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Nov 10, 2018 20:05
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Mooseontheloose posted:But if you think that for one second when the Democrats get close to passing it that popularity for that bill will poll below 50 percent, I think you have another thing coming. It's almost like part of the statement I've made multiple times has included the advocacy and education phase in order to get that approval up
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Nov 10, 2018 20:05
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Young Freud posted:Also, being handed a major loss in the midterms, despite his assurances of a "red wave". All three of those are a recipe for disaster. Plus he hasn't been able to golf like, at all
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Nov 10, 2018 20:05
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Lightning Knight posted:I don't think this is very accurate, there's explicitly bills that have dozens of cosponsors, it has fairly well-understood policy architecture as far as I'm aware. Admittedly, I am too dumb to understand that policy, but it exists in both houses of Congress. Sorry; I should have been more explicit there. There are lots of proposals that have gotten some flavor of "Medicare for All" tag, from true single-payer to various public option and even private insurer-plus-subsidy plans. The CAP (who did the whole Medicare Extra thing) tried to brand their slight tweaks to the ACA as "Medicare Extra for All," and on the other end of the spectrum you've got Bernie's no-poo poo single-payer proposal. All those options have some kind of architecture and concrete policy proposals behind them, but none of them is the one, definitive Medicare for All. As long as that ambiguity exists, polling on the subject is going to be a weak proxy for "is Medicare a good thing that should maybe be bigger somehow" instead of anything that could reflect an upcoming policy fight. As soon as there's a single, concrete policy proposal with some traction, then the knives will come out.
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Nov 10, 2018 20:06
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