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gotta love someone whose only "contribution" here is to come in every week or so with a variant on "hey guys i heard corbyn bad y/n" telling an actual thread regular how to post e: catte tax 
Julio Cruz fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 02:50
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People keep saying it in various permutations and it keeps grating on me, the expression is toe the line and it means to adhere just barely to the rules under protest. As in, you are putting your toe on the line you are not allowed to cross. It doesn't mean adhering to rules or custom enthusiastically.
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Nov 11, 2018 02:50
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ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:And I gave you your answer, and if your "concern" with Corbyn is "genuine" then you are in fact a loving idiot so kindly gently caress off Hmm yes I can't imagine why I'd be worried about brexit or the leader of the opposition's stance on said event that is going to really gently caress over alot of vulnerable people, myself included. Get hosed
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Nov 11, 2018 02:52
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Theme music for the page https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xuedh4i_8E
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Nov 11, 2018 02:53
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Ash Crimson posted:Hmm yes I can't imagine why I'd be worried about brexit or the leader of the opposition's stance on said event that is going to really gently caress over alot of vulnerable people, myself included. If your issue is with Brexit then I really don't know why you're taking issue with Corbyn: he didn't campaign for it, he didn't vote for it, and he's not the one implementing it right now. Seems like really you should be blaming the Tories.
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Nov 11, 2018 03:02
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Julio Cruz posted:If your issue is with Brexit then I really don't know why you're taking issue with Corbyn: he didn't campaign for it, he didn't vote for it, and he's not the one implementing it right now. Seems like really you should be blaming the Tories. I'm never going to vote tory and I do blame the tories for this, however my only real option is to vote labour and hope they can do*something* but it's pretty off putting and demoralising for him to be openly saying this poo poo
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Nov 11, 2018 03:04
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Ash Crimson posted:I'm never going to vote tory and I do blame the tories for this, however my only real option is to vote labour and hope they can do*something* but it's pretty off putting and demoralising for him to be openly saying this poo poo Was him saying "yes we'll do the thing that people voted for" a surprise for you somehow?
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Nov 11, 2018 03:07
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Julio Cruz posted:Was him saying "yes we'll do the thing that people voted for" a surprise for you somehow? In what way does brexit benefit us? If he's going to essentially accept it he might as well start making a case for it he's conceded all the arguments against trying to support a second referendum stopping it Ash Crimson fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 03:09
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Ash Crimson posted:In what way does brexit benefit us? If he's going to essentially accept it he might as well start making a case for it His case for it is "people voted for it".
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Nov 11, 2018 03:10
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This is dumb. And I consider myself something of an expert.
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Nov 11, 2018 03:12
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Julio Cruz posted:His case for it is "people voted for it". The people were lied to and misled by charlatans and con artists! The average leave voter probably didn't even know of the way the eu has invested in their local areas
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Nov 11, 2018 03:13
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Ash Crimson posted:The people were lied to and misled by charlatans and con artists! Sadly "people were lied to" is not and never has been a reason to ignore the results of a vote, otherwise there would never have been a Tory government in history.
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Nov 11, 2018 03:17
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Ash Crimson posted:Hmm yes I can't imagine why I'd be worried about brexit or the leader of the opposition's stance on said event that is going to really gently caress over alot of vulnerable people, myself included. Julio Cruz posted:If your issue is with Brexit then I really don't know why you're taking issue with Corbyn: he didn't campaign for it, he didn't vote for it, and he's not the one implementing it right now. Seems like really you should be blaming the Tories. seriously Ash, you're a loving idiot, because you aren't the only person in the whole loving country who won't be hosed over by this, but you are one of the countless millions who seems to think that Corbyn standing up in the Commons and saying "Brexit is over lads" will stop it, because you are in fact a loving eff bee pee bee idiot so kindly gently caress the gently caress off and get a loving clue while you're at it
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Nov 11, 2018 03:24
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Ash Crimson posted:The people were lied to and misled by charlatans and con artists! This is also true of every UK election for as long as I've been alive but he remains a member of parliament rather than an anarchist revolutionary.
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Nov 11, 2018 03:35
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Coohoolin posted:Ah right so Corbyn is good at giving thoughtful nuanced answers that express his honest opinions, except for when it comes to brexit, where he's playing 12 dimensional chess to beat the papers and the Tories. Gotcha. No I don't think he is playing 12-d chess, I just think this is a particularly hot button issue where he's learned or been convinced by advisors etc. that attempting nuanced answers is at times a losing proposition. I actually think he has, overall, probably done worse with such matters in general than in my eyes, because I agree with him on a lot of stuff so I'm inevitably going to be more willing to cut slack than someone on the fence or the 'against, but persuadable' demography, if such exists.
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Nov 11, 2018 03:38
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ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:seriously Ash, you're a loving idiot, because you aren't the only person in the whole loving country who won't be hosed over by this, but you are one of the countless millions who seems to think that Corbyn standing up in the Commons and saying "Brexit is over lads" will stop it, because you are in fact a loving eff bee pee bee idiot so kindly gently caress the gently caress off and get a loving clue while you're at it Feel free to remove your head from your rear end when you've calmed down man. Right now all you are doing is attacking me and it's sick.
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Nov 11, 2018 03:39
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you can take that  bullshit back to FBPE twitter while you're at itand I'm done with this one now
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Nov 11, 2018 03:41
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ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:seriously Ash, you're a loving idiot, because you aren't the only person in the whole loving country who won't be hosed over by this, but you are one of the countless millions who seems to think that Corbyn standing up in the Commons and saying "Brexit is over lads" will stop it, because you are in fact a loving eff bee pee bee idiot so kindly gently caress the gently caress off and get a loving clue while you're at it I probated him for sealioning because it’s really annoying but I would also like to kindly ask you to calm down. 
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Nov 11, 2018 03:46
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What is sealioning? I don't think he's making a highly incredible plan to navally invade the UK.
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Nov 11, 2018 03:50
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Balancing balls on your nose and making a big racket.
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Nov 11, 2018 03:53
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OwlFancier posted:What is sealioning? I don't think he's making a highly incredible plan to navally invade the UK. Basically "just asking questions" and then getting incredibly offended when people who are fed up of answering the same bullshit questions a hundred times over tell you to gently caress off. Julio Cruz fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 03:54
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Julio Cruz posted:congratulations you've surpassed Miftan as king of the bad food opinions Coconuts are okay at best, but coconut and chocolate fall into the fruit flavour /chocolate combination same as chocolate oranges and as such is bad. Also don't know why you're all bothering with Turkish delights when baklavas are RIGHT THERE Miftan fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 04:04
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What about dark chocolate that literally tastes like berries miftan???
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Nov 11, 2018 04:14
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baka kaba posted:What about dark chocolate that literally tastes like berries miftan??? I don't know what you're talking about but my initial gut feeling (heh) is that it'll be bad
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Nov 11, 2018 04:18
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as I remarked yesterday, it's not wrong to observe that Corbyn in the opposition benches doesn't actually have any hard options and is at best limited to gesture politics. So, one may as well triangulate toward a course that puts one in power - so that one does have hard power I think it would be fair, however, to ask that this standard be applied consistently
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Nov 11, 2018 06:10
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One might suggest that having the appearance of principle is a more effective voting incentive than triangulation in virtually all other instances.
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Nov 11, 2018 06:13
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OwlFancier posted:One might suggest that having the appearance of principle is a more effective voting incentive than triangulation in virtually all other instances. certainly stranger things have happened - but one might then want to motivate that special pleading in some way...? I think you've touched on the raw nerve - the Left Against Brexit twatter hysteria definitely seems wont to hop up and down on the CORBS THE BETRAYER button. it's less of a clinical assessment of party strategy than the shock that one's great hope against cynical politicking is not only willing to openly play to the right but has decided that you would make a fine sacrifice (I think Coohoolin remarked as much a short while ago, but I can't find that post)
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Nov 11, 2018 06:27
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Corbyn’s opinion really doesn’t mean that much anyway. If Labour manage to get in government somehow before brexit then the overwhelming force of the entire Labour Party will force his hand to stop it. Still, Coohoolin’s relief in finding something to hate Labour for, and justify his support for a neoliberal party, is palpable.
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Nov 11, 2018 06:45
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But even that is not at all inconsistent with corbyn as he was elected as leader. He keeps saying that he thinks the democratic process is important with the obvious implication that this is true even if it's based on lies, which you can see from his dislike of AV and failure to launch a paramilitary coup of previous tory governments. Further he's been quite consistent that the UK should guarantee the rights of EU citizens resident here (and all other EU protections afforded to UK citizens) and you've very little reason to disbelieve that because there's nothing to be gained from changing position on it. The actual mass deportation crew is far more likely to be voting tory than labour and suggesting it would be completely incongruous with the rest of his political career even if his cabinet would accept it which I don't think they would. Additionally he's repeatedly stated that he thinks the referendum indicates a failure of UK domestic policy to provide for the welfare of a large number of people and that he wants to rectify that in the hopes that it will fix the complaints of the leave side, that they are fundamentally grounded in problems that are not the EU's fault. This is quite straightforward and I maintain that people complaining about him suddenly changing either position or method are doing so from a position of ignorance. His reasons given are entirely consistent with everything you can determine about him from his voting record and political career, and the only thing I would suggest might be politicking is how often the labour party talks about it. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 06:47
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OwlFancier posted:But even that is not at all inconsistent with corbyn as he was elected as leader. He keeps saying that he thinks the democratic process is important with the obvious implication that this is true even if it's based on lies, which you can see from his dislike of AV and failure to launch a paramilitary coup of previous tory governments. a month ago quote:He said: “What comes out of conference I will adhere to. But I’m not calling for a second referendum. I hope we will agree that the best way of resolving this is a general election. quote:The key sentence of the final draft says: “If we cannot get a general election Labour must support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote.” last week quote:"Not really, no. The referendum took place. The issue now has to be how we bring people together, bring people together around the principles of our economy, our rights and that we don’t turn this country into some kind of offshore tax haven on the lines that Donald Trump might want us to.” oh... kay? Look, I have been saying since 2015 that I don't actually expect a veteran North London politician to be anything less than a politician. Corbyn is no fool. You have to admire this judo. But you have to be remarkably blinkered not to notice it going on
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Nov 11, 2018 06:55
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That resolution is absolute nonsense that is completely unworkable though, it doesn't provide any coherent directive and what few things it might suggest are obviously unworkable. How are you going to hold a referendum on a deal the tories very probably will never reach? How do you do it if they reach it too late? Does that have anything to do with the stupid people's vote poo poo? Do they have any coherent platform for what they're going to do or how? Do any of them know that even if there was a referendum it's not at all binding and it'll still be the tories in charge? If conference had come out and said "labour needs to campaign for a referendum on calling it off as soon as possible" you might have had a point, but what actually passed is absolute drivel and there is no way anyone can extract a meaningful directive from it other than "please stop brexit we don't like it  " which is loving useless and still basically leaves the entire direction of how to go about it at the discretion of the leader's office, so why wouldn't he stick to the idea that a general election is the solution? "If we can't get a general election" is a condition that won't activate until it's far too late.Again that is an absolutely terrible motion. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 07:02
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After spending months saying he is trying to force a General Election and a referendum push would be a last resort, people lose their poo poo that Corbyn says he is trying to force a General Election instead of pushing for a People's Vote Referendum.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:06
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again - again - I reiterate there are pragmatic, straightforward defences of Corbyn's weaving and dodging starting with: even if a Johnson is being honest for once, it's still definitely a feeler being put out to test the waters amongst Tory MPs for a potential Bremain-flavoured rebellion in the way it was packaged and sold to the press, and the same strategic assessment by the Leader's Office that the only Bregain votes that would be supported are those that don't emanate from the Labour right apply in triplicate to one actually from an actual Tory: none of it can be trusted to be more than a feeler, and past feelers haven't last more than a week anyway; let's just wait and see before abandoning our hard-won strategic ambiguity at voter doorsteps in Leave areas but if you look at this jinking and say that it self-evidently emerges from high principle, I think it's fair to question your judgment?
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Nov 11, 2018 07:08
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I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't put much faith in Tory Brexit rebels. They've been so reliable so far.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:10
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Or maybe he just doesn't pay attention to whatever idiocy boris johnson puts out because he's run out of lube temporarily from sitting at home wanking all day and accurately realises he has no loving say in anything.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:11
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OwlFancier posted:That resolution is absolute nonsense that is completely unworkable though, it doesn't provide any coherent directive and what few things it might suggest are obviously unworkable. How are you going to hold a referendum on a deal the tories very probably will never reach? How do you do it if they reach it too late? Does that have anything to do with the stupid people's vote poo poo? Do they have any coherent platform for what they're going to do or how? Do any of them know that even if there was a referendum it's not at all binding and it'll still be the tories in charge? many things are terrible, obviously-unworkable motions without a coherent platform for what they're going to do or how that have nonetheless been ~democratically passed~, I can certainly think of some
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Nov 11, 2018 07:11
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ronya posted:many things are terrible, obviously-unworkable motions without a coherent platform for what they're going to do or how that have nonetheless been ~democratically passed~, I can certainly think of some That's a stupid comparison and you know it. The UK leaving the EU is not literally impossible, merely a bad idea. It is entirely possible that a labour government may be able to deliver some sort of brexit with a potentially manageable degree of harm to the UK, if they are willing to adopt a sufficiently long timescale to do it. It is in no way possible for Labour to get a vote on a deal that never exists or to make the tories to vote for a referendum on calling it off. If you want to stop what's going to happen next year, your only option is knocking out the government and getting a labour one in. Which is their present focus. "If you can't do a thing you will only know you can't do after we've left, then labour must support a vote on a final deal that doesn't exist or if it did exist was voted on months ago, and also the tories should stop being shits" is orders of magnitude more stupid than "figure out some way of leaving the EU". OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 07:16
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OwlFancier posted:That's a stupid comparison and you know it. The UK leaving the EU is not literally impossible, merely a bad idea. It is entirely possible that a labour government may be able to deliver some sort of brexit with a potentially manageable degree of harm to the UK, if they are willing to adopt a long timescale to do it. It is in no way possible for Labour to get a vote on a deal that never exists or to get the tories to vote for a referendum on calling it off. If you want to stop what's going to happen next year, your only option is knocking out the government and getting a labour one in. Which is their present focus. Fortunately the Conference motion did not say "hold a referendum from the opposition benches", it said "campaigning for a public vote", i.e., that exact uncomfortable position of expending party resources on costly gesture politics. which is, you know, business as usual for Conference, and likewise also business as usual for the party leadership to applaud this bold exercise of party democracy, then bluntly ignore it. Because, whilst not being literally impossible, Conference motions can still be a bad idea from any practical standpoint. Conference considered Corbyn's argument, already put forth before the motion vote, to focus on a new general election instead - and recognized it correctly as evasion since the Tories are hardly likely to collapse early if they can survive the Brexit storm, not when the polling promises at best yet another coalition Tory govt. If the odds of Tory rebels on Brexit are bad, the odds on Tory rebels on Tories in government are...? What is this miraculously workable plan to knock out the government? This isn't the 1970s, it's not like Comrade Corbyn is pitching government collapse via general strike (the fevered dreams of the Mail otherwise) OwlFancier posted:"figure out some way of leaving the EU". Corbs, for his part, is not so idiotic as to openly embrace that either, because it's also impossible to meet all of Labour's red lines. You know it, I know it. The point is not to figure out a way. The point is to keep committing to impossible demands for as long as the Tories keep up the impossible demands, so that the Tory govt continues to own the car crash ronya fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 07:35
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It also failed to pass any coherent directive to the leadership, which was the initial suggestion... "If you can't get a GE then campaign for a public vote" is stupid because a: the condition is nonsensical and b: the suggestion may easily be in conflict with the condition. Labour can not force the government to collapse and it is entirely probable that them expending resources on rehashing the referendum argument would only strengthen the government by drawing away attention from their failings, and also very possibly harming labour's electoral chances because there is not some large contingent of voters who would vote labour if only they would support remain. The FBPE brigade are not going to vote labour. The most workable plan for collapsing the government is pointing out their failings at every opportunity, which is what labour are doing. This does not make it an effective plan because there practically is very little an opposition can do against a government that doesn't want to top itself, but that doesn't make it not a more credible plan than "be a very good distraction from thegovernment's failings, try extra hard to cop the blame for brexit being terrible by being as obstructionist as possible, and alienate the 30% or whatever it is, of your stupid-yet-necessary voting base." And no I'm not at all convinced that a future labour government, if it had the option, wouldn't try to find some way to leave the EU. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Nov 11, 2018 |
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Nov 11, 2018 07:45
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The condition is entirely sensible. Labour doesn't have the votes to pass a FTPA-satisfying no confidence motion. Next. The directive to campaign for position is also coherent: here is a position, campaign for it. Your objection is that you think it's a terrible electoral tactic, not that it literally cannot be done. Of course, that is hardly atypical for Conference.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:50
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