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I was struck by this in Lakoff that Helsing posted. "The most representative members of a category are called "prototypical" members." In a quite a bit of Christian theology, I would say it's fair to say Jesus is treated as a "prototypical" member (with the specfic category varying for the specific theology ) of a category. Hell simply to say Jesus as the Christ is to assert this prototypical status. In the Trump thread a tweet of a billboard with Trump's photo overlayed with "the word made flesh" was posted. Basically it's swapping the prototype. It occurs to me that this is the way one could functionally turn one belief into another without nominally changing them. It also has a parallel in other D&D conversation some of us have had over the years re form vs content. I'd also say it has another parralel in the emptying out of things that capitalism can do. How does one change talk about Freedom into a fascism, manipulation/replacement of the prototypes of categories would be one way to do it.
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Nov 11, 2018 07:19
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I think this is maybe a bit more Jungian, but Trump certainly fits the archetype of "savior" for a lot of people.
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Nov 11, 2018 08:53
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Oh yeah and that's specifically what that billboard was implying. It's really hosed up looking at it in terms of Soterology.
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Nov 11, 2018 09:03
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BrandorKP posted:Oh yeah and that's specifically what that billboard was implying. It's really hosed up looking at it in terms of Soterology. Is this a usual variant of soteriology's spelling or a witticism that really deserves attention because it's magnificent?
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Nov 17, 2018 01:47
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Nah It's phone posting and I didn't notice, cause I blow at spelling.
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Nov 17, 2018 02:47
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PJ what do you think about how increasingly common use by these things to resort to using weather control or satellite based weaponry to explain climate change related disasters? Is it a way for them to cope with the fact they cannot really love the idea of helping humanity?
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Nov 17, 2018 03:34
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Crowsbeak posted:PJ what do you think about how increasingly common use by these things to resort to using weather control or satellite based weaponry to explain climate change related disasters? Is it a way for them to cope with the fact they cannot really love the idea of helping humanity?
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Nov 17, 2018 04:28
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Tumblr of scotch posted:Can someone translate this? Climate Change Denial has moved into full on "Disasters are literally caused by government super weapons" territory. Like, they can't any longer just say they are not seeing it's effects. So now the effects are deliberately caused by evil faceless all powerful shadow orgs. Really I have gotten to the point with conspiracy theorists where I really think that they're so much trouble that there will need to be actual government orgs to silence such people. Like, there are some modes of thought that frankly if not controlled are just going to get millions killed because it feeds into the worst demons imaginable in humans.
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Nov 17, 2018 04:52
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BrandorKP posted:Corrupt hidden religion. They think Jesus comes back when everyone goes back to their native lands except white people keep America, right? Tumblr of scotch posted:Can someone translate this? Oh the new conspiracy theory is a laser burning things in california to start the fires. Then speculation on why people are cynical and lovely enough to deny reality to the extent they have been recently. Harold Fjord has issued a correction as of 06:21 on Nov 17, 2018 |
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Nov 17, 2018 06:08
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A lot of conspiracy theories basically come down to believing their political enemies are literally cartoon supervillains.
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Nov 17, 2018 10:29
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I think conspiracy theories actually boil down to people who are bored, unfulfilled, and mundane who want to feel extraordinary. By definition most people are average. It shouldn't be an insult yet if you call someone average they very well may be insulted. Nobody wants to be mediocre. The information age has made it more apparent to the average person that they are average. You see the exceptional people everywhere on the news, TV, movies, talking about them online, doing great things, being your boss, etc. I think this draws out some cognitive dissonance in a mediocre person because they want to believe they're exceptional but every day they're reminded how ordinary and unaccomplished they are and this provokes unconscious negative emotions about themselves. So wild conspiracy theories are very alluring for some people. Note that the far-fetched theories are the most alluring. Actual conspiracies usually involve a lot of boring stuff like fraud and aren't as exciting as alien UFOs and weather control devices. These insane conspiracies give ordinary people an opportunity to feel extraordinary without doing anything really. All you have to do is "wake up" to the truth, which means deciding that something is true and then working backwards to make reality fit your predetermined conclusion. And just like that they've become special and are now part of an enlightened elite who "gets it" and knows how the world really works and oh how they feel sorry for you sheep/NPCs who don't know about "the great awakening" or whatever myth they've collectively invented. Their stories tend to be very dramatic too, because these are people with boring lives and the conspiracies give them something to feel intensely about, even if it's intense anger or fear. The internet makes things worse for these people because it lets them become extremely insulated from reality and they get sucked into a feedback look of confirming each others' beliefs and helping people come up with creative (read: crazy) ways to make evidence fit a conclusion. I used to think people got into nutty conspiracies because they're ignorant or stupid. Now I think it's less about intelligence as much as it's about mediocrity. I think authoritarians prey on the kinds of people who are inclined to conspiracies because they have a vulnerability. They don't feel exceptional. They don't feel like they have a purpose. Their world seems boring and painful. Then along comes the authoritarian to tell them that they are exceptional and have a purpose. eg: You're white. You're special automatically. "They" don't want you to know the truth. Etc. So we see a lot of ridiculous conspiracy theories being perpetuated by chronic underachievers and the mediocre. Ironically the most exceptional skill conspiracy theorists have is the ability to delude themselves about being exceptional. Homocow has issued a correction as of 13:14 on Nov 17, 2018 |
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Nov 17, 2018 13:11
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Dead Beef posted:I think conspiracy theories actually boil down to people who are bored, unfulfilled, and mundane who want to feel extraordinary. Basically, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJWlWG_42kE
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Nov 17, 2018 14:23
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Being honest, I'll cop to having used to really enjoyed conspiracy theorizing. It was so much fun to puzzle out increasingly ludicrous but superficially plausible explanations to the most mundane stuff imaginable, all while trying to keep it consistent* with underlying thesis of there being some central "Them" controlling things for some unknowable but not-doubt sinister reasons. Of course, this was back when the people who actually took it seriously were confined to the AM radio set, and Alex Jones wasn't being literally consulted by the goddamn president of the United States. *consistent here defined within a conspiratorial mindset, not in any way that necessarily makes sense.
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Nov 17, 2018 15:55
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Honestly a lot of it will always be people figuring out that they’re being exploited and subjected to a system that puts them at a disadvantage, but then being too dumb or racist to accept the reasons why and embracing one of the endless variations on antisemitism instead.
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Nov 17, 2018 16:57
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Crowsbeak posted:PJ what do you think about how increasingly common use by these things to resort to using weather control or satellite based weaponry to explain climate change related disasters? Is it a way for them to cope with the fact they cannot really love the idea of helping humanity? It's a pretty natural evolution that is being caused by a combination of factors in my view. Weather control related conspiracies are actually kind of interesting because their acceptance into the broader conspiracy community was actually rather slow. Circa 2004 or so Alex Jones was fairly dismissive of HAARP conspiracies or Chemtrails and the like. (He was also against the "no planers" in the early days of 9-11 truth.) He would even cut off collars or occasionally dump them if they persisted in talking about things like chemtrails. That started to change around 2007 or so, and he started to be more accepting of callers who wanted to discuss various weather control related conspiracy theories. By about 2010 or so he was 100% on board the Chemtrails and HAARP train*. *I'm just now remembering that roundabout 2009 or so there were a number of mass animal die-offs (fish and birds) that had the conspiracy Community abuzz. The events themselves briefly received some national attention, but the conspiracy community really fixated on them. These animal die-offs were often explained as being the result of experiments with weather control weaponry. Directed energy weapons have also had a fairly slow evolution of acceptance within the conspiracy community. The aforementioned "no planers" where a group of 9/11 truthers who believed that the planes that crashed into the towers were actually holographic projections, and that the towers were collapsed using satellite-based directed energy weapons. These were by far the least popular 9/11 truthers and we're pretty widely believed to be a cointelpro operation meant to discredit the 911 truth movement. I can remember Alex Jones going on long mocking tirades about the absurdity of using a directed energy weapon to knock down the Twin Towers or using a gigantic holographic projector to fake an aircraft slamming into a tower in broad daylight. Then during the Iraq War the Conspiracy community started to latch onto various reports and or second hand accounts of directed energy weapons being used in Iraq- particularly during the era of "The Surge". Alex Jones was initially pretty skeptical of this if I recall correctly but came around pretty quickly, and when the surge resulted in the moderate quieting down and Iraq it was widely accepted within thecommunity that what had actually happened was that directed energy weapons had been used to nullify the Iraqi resistance.
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Nov 17, 2018 17:12
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Dead Beef posted:So we see a lot of ridiculous conspiracy theories being perpetuated by chronic underachievers and the mediocre. Ironically the most exceptional skill conspiracy theorists have is the ability to delude themselves about being exceptional. It's certainly a part of it but there might be more to it than that. Conspiracy theories also attract people as entertainment, it's excitement without risk. You can be average and mediocre and still live in a world that has cabals and UFOs without actually confronting the supposed reality of those ideas. They're a form of voyeurism, like the flourishing true crime genre. They serve a similar function to fairy tales: preparing a person for the dangers of the outside world within a controlled narrative. Like fairy tales, they have rules about protagonists, villains, and narratives with one important difference: they can only imply conclusions because ironically, conclusions are death to conspiracy theories. Their "obvious" conclusion never occurs and in order to avoid this, the storytellers will sidetrack into another theory and so on until you get QAnon. None that is important to the intended audience, who indeed never want the conspiracy theory fairy tale to actually end anyway.
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Nov 17, 2018 19:21
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i remember hearing this on the radio while i was driving a while back https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=614007959quote:TUFEKCI: So what's going on here isn't YouTube engineers are out to wreck the world, right? But they have set loose an algorithm that's optimized to grab your attention for as long as possible to keep you on the site under, their word for it, engagement while YouTube serves the ads. And the algorithm has sussed out that humans are particularly susceptible, especially young people are particularly susceptible, to the idea that they're discovering a secret, that they're being told something edgier - right? - something more extreme because it's kind of like, ooh, this is novel. I'm interested in this, right? It's sort of seducing you. It's sort of trying to play to your appetites. So the algorithm automatically plays more and more. TL;DR: youtube is turning everyone into conspiracy nuts just so they can sell more ad time its probably not a surprise to anyone posting here. yet another example to show: "propaganda works". but what's scary and new is that the ideology behind the propaganda just doesn't matter at all to youtube. the only thing they're measuring is "engagement"
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Nov 17, 2018 19:53
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Nevvy Z posted:They think Jesus comes back when everyone goes back to their native lands except white people keep America, right? By hidden I mean things that do not outwardly appear or claim to be religions. Libertarianism is good example. Nationalism is another. Hidden doesn't nessisarily mean bad. Just hidden. The American Dream might be another example. By corrupt, how to say this in non religious terms. Ok let's look at the Libertarians they talk about Freedom, that's their jam, freedom in human action. But if we actually look at the thing, it's more in reality like feudalism or contractual slavery. So basically you have an idea but the reality of the methodical development of that idea is it negation. Freedom that is a slavery. By religion I mean our interaction with the symbolic to attempt to grasp the ineffable real. Now religion is actually way more broad and diverse than this and is really really hard to define, but this is the definition useful to this conversation. Worldview, ideology, and prester's narratives are close but not identical analogs.
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Nov 18, 2018 06:26
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Edit- nm
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Nov 18, 2018 07:22
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Unrelated, Skex is good people Prester. But, I'm not going to tell you you're wrong. I don't think you are. Neither was Stanton. The abolitionists did betray the feminists, by leaving women out of the thirteenth amendment. But they weren't wrong either. It wouldn't have been adopted if they hadn't.
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Nov 18, 2018 07:32
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Helianthus Annuus posted:i remember hearing this on the radio while i was driving a while back https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=614007959 yet another article that harps about "the algorithm" without acknowledging that someone had to write it. not only that, but people with the power to change it looked at the numbers and went "it's okay that we're pushing terrorist propaganda on children" last time i worked a recommendation system I realized it was recommending offensive content, so I fixed it. it's that simple.
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Nov 18, 2018 23:34
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Fixing the content recommendation system means identifying and calling out harmful content. One side of the political spectrum has decided that having their harmful content actually classified as harmful content is actually just discrimination and oppressive censorship. There are congresspeople with this point of view. There have been congressional committees that have called forth Silicon Valley CEOs and interrogated them about how biased they are towards those poor innocent conservative points of view like racist nationalism. Google doesn't want to risk having YouTube be seen as "political" because that will unleash hell on earth for them. Because they refuse to take action, they are complicit in spreading hate. I don't think they understand this, neither does Zuckerberg, nor does Jack.
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Nov 18, 2018 23:57
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Currently they're platforms not responsible for the content posted they don't want lose that status.
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Nov 19, 2018 00:13
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BrandorKP posted:Unrelated, Skex is good people Prester. But, I'm not going to tell you you're wrong. I don't think you are. Neither was Stanton. The abolitionists did betray the feminists, by leaving women out of the thirteenth amendment. But they weren't wrong either. It wouldn't have been adopted if they hadn't. Skex is one of the dumbest posters I've ever seen in D&D and that is saying something.
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Nov 19, 2018 00:27
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salisbury shake posted:yet another article that harps about "the algorithm" without acknowledging that someone had to write it. nah she acknowledges that there are bad actors quote:...we're being told a story by Silicon Valley that this is inevitable, this is good or that this stuff has to come in combination. You know, if you're going to use digital stuff, you're going to have your attention manipulated and sold. It's just not true. They package it this way, and we don't have to. her real problem is that she cant or wont make the explicit connection between the profit motive and pushing terrorist propaganda on children
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Nov 19, 2018 00:49
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ximgPmJ9A5s John Oliver did a segment on authoritarianism. Anyone still with enough patience to tolerate Oliver can say if it's a decent watch or does he do a bad job explaining it?
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Nov 19, 2018 19:37
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he does a very good job explaining the preferred definition of authoritarianism by particularly american liberals, and completely ignores the fact that maybe. JUST MAYBE that the entire world seems to be going fascist at the same time might have one or even two common material causes, and that "institutions" might not be a significant bulwark against them. he's not even doing politics as much as armchair meteorology. and baby, it's cold outside Willie Tomg has issued a correction as of 20:11 on Nov 19, 2018 |
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Nov 19, 2018 20:06
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an extremely smart man in glasses: hopefully the national police force and unelected and unaccountable IC panopticon can save us from authoritarianism
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Nov 19, 2018 20:20
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best part is at 4:25, when he shows the president of Turkmenistan push-pressing an empty barbell with poor form while his cabinet is forced to applaud him. and the barbell is gold for some reason virgin jeb!: please clap chad berdimuhamedow: clap for your life
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Nov 19, 2018 22:20
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https://twitter.com/Drjohnhorgan/status/1065059937485754374?s=19
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Nov 22, 2018 20:19
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I dont know what would be stupider, if they're just ignorant rear end honkies who are utterly oblivious or if they intentionally named themselves "Al Queda, but for whites"
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Nov 22, 2018 20:22
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https://www.theonion.com/klan-rally-70-percent-undercover-reporters-1819566475 It's this, except FBI.
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Nov 22, 2018 20:52
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im weaponizing the lingo itt to destroy all authoritarians in my life today. g*d bless
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Nov 22, 2018 20:56
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All Dengists are Fascists https://twitter.com/minorujoeling/status/1065524520461623296
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Nov 23, 2018 09:29
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Calibanibal posted:im weaponizing the lingo itt to destroy all authoritarians in my life today. g*d bless Hold on to that thought because I am working something along those lines at present and hope to have some rough drafts ready for this thread around the first of the year- specifically I am working on a comprehensive package meant to explain to a layman how to combat the spread of Narrativism online. Right now its all a bit rough but as of now I am working on five main parts:
This is going to be a lot of work and I am going to need good feedback to get this project into a publicly presentable state. But I am at a point where I feel trying to turn my work into useful tools is much more important than distracting some of the really abstract ideas that underlie my work. Also I have been taking some of the threads advice to heart and have been actively reaching out to people. On Monday I have a phone interview with a Huffpo reporter who is doing an article about LGBT children who went through Accelerated Christian Education. Finally I am hoping someone can help me out with my av. A very kind goon sent me a code for a new av but what I want is a bit beyond my present technical capabilitues. So I am asking for help. If someone could make an av-compliant gif of the hula hoop girl in the video below and send it to me that would be amazing beyond description  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQGRg8XBnB4&t=129s
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Nov 30, 2018 23:46
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From another threadH.P. Hovercraft posted:post trump voters realizing that their childhoods never died under trump
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Dec 5, 2018 00:00
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With R. Dickovitch having banned the OP, any thoughts on the rise of the mad as hell left, folks? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWxsT-Srdto
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Dec 7, 2018 22:20
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holy poo poo pj why did you toxx for basta ahahahaha
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Dec 7, 2018 22:38
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owned lmao turns out PJ was the strongman narrativist all along
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Dec 7, 2018 22:49
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T-man posted:With R. Dickovitch having banned the OP, any thoughts on the rise of the mad as hell left, folks? I'm not sure they're going to take it anymore
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Dec 8, 2018 00:12
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