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i watched a few episodes and the jokes were ok but not good enough to commit to, especially when i think the show is kinda ugly
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Oct 17, 2018 23:14
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Raxivace posted:To be fair me and Goodbody might be literally the only ones who watch Tiramisu. Me too.
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Oct 18, 2018 00:29
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Guy Goodbody posted:no there's really a show called Space Battleship Tiramisu Ok, so that's a thing that exists.
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Oct 18, 2018 00:42
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For some reason I found the joke about the military HQ having a gift shop very funny
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Oct 18, 2018 02:48
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dogsicle posted:i watched a few episodes and the jokes were ok but not good enough to commit to, especially when i think the show is kinda ugly This was my assessment as well
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Oct 18, 2018 16:45
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So, watched Diebuster. You know how I said that Gunbuster took some time before I could see why people called it a classic? And how it felt kinda disjointed, with the various parts not quite linking up right? Yeah. No such issue here. Diebuster hits the ground running. I admit I was a bit worried after hearing Darling in the Franxx and FLCL: Alternative's endings get compared to Diebuster, since they were both festering piles of crap by the end, but Diebuster delivered where they poo poo the bed. You can actually see how Nono is an awkward person to have as a friend, rather than having the rejection speech be angry about things that don't make much sense, and Nono's vast powers are set up and made clear, with time to pay off the reveal rather than just shoving it in for Reasons. (Including tying them to a couple more neat reveals.) And the ending... I was hoping it would finish there, but it still came as a pleasant surprise. I also quite liked how the show built up a rapid double turnaround that didn't feel forced for Lal'C. Episode 1, she's the Curve Breaker, the ultimate Space Monster killer. Then, episode 4 reveals that, no, the Topless were the problem, just like the rear end in a top hat navy officer said, and when an actual space monster showed up, they're pretty much fodder until Nono shows up to top the topless. But then episode 5 comes and goes, and by the end of that, Lal'C's The Mover of Planets, and she ends the series by teaming with Nono to kill the Space Monster so tough even a black hole couldn't stop it. She's climbed her way back to the top, and she did it the old fashioned way, with hard work and guts. Yeah. Diebuster. It's good.
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Oct 22, 2018 11:27
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Diebuster is a more recent show made with much more modern sensibilities, so that's not a surprise. However, the whole thing is a tribute to Gunbuster. Both literally and figuratively.
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Oct 22, 2018 19:05
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https://twitter.com/OuterheavenPics/status/1051649093494300672 Jesus, Tomino.
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Oct 23, 2018 03:49
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chiasaur11 posted:Yeah. Diebuster. It's good. I'm going to go against the general pattern I've observed and say I think Nono is a better representation of "hard work & guts" too. Most people dismiss her as being incapable of embodying that, since she's a robot and the ability was in her all along but it's not like humans can do something a human is physically incapable of just by training. More importantly, it's not like Noriko trained to be able to do lightning kicks. That was just innate talent for her too, and isn't something a human in general is going to be able to do with training. Nono worked lovely, dead end jobs that resulted in some personal harassment for months (or possibly years) just to be closer to the people she admired and kept struggling even if things looked hopeless because she believed that her work would pay off. Noriko trained for a few days in school and was able to one-up people who'd been doing it for years due to that little bit of work. Nono's ethic just seems truer and more tested.
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Oct 23, 2018 15:10
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Noriko wasn't actually picked because she was super naturally talented, though. She's not as good of a pilot as Kazumi or Jung or even Smith; she's a third wheel during Kazumi and Jung's duel, and in the battle where Smith dies she's so overwhelmed that she doesn't even managed to catch sight of the enemy that kills him before the battle is over. Noriko is picked because Coach can sense that when the chips are down and there's nothing else left she'll dig deep and get the job done. This is the entire point of her big fight in episode 4; despite having the incomplete Gunbuster, she's completely unable to do anything to the space monster and is losing terribly until she decides to throw caution to the wind and put her life on the line in defiance of what every other person in the show except Coach thinks is sane or reasonable. She doesn't win by talent or skill, she wins by courage and belief. This theme is repeated, too. In episode 5, Kazumi, the super talented and skilled perfect soldier, breaks down emotionally and is about to lose because of it and it's Noriko imploring her to never give up that completes the Gunbuster and wins the day. In episode 6, humanity is completely boned and it's Noriko being willing to either kill herself or doom herself to an eon of exile because there's no other hope that saves humanity. In Gunbuster, "hard work and guts" doesn't equate to being especially talented or skilled, it equates to never, ever, ever saying die. The characters who are depicted as being incredibly skilled and talented, Kazumi and Jung, are second banana backup dancers to the no-hoper. Nono goes through a whole lot of poo poo to get to where she does, but unlike Noriko, she absolutely does have superhuman potential that no one else can ever match up to. Kanos fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 16:36
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Kanos posted:Noriko wasn't actually picked because she was super naturally talented, though. Which doesn't change that despite never training for it, she breaks out a lightning kick that no-one has mentioned or implied until that point if I recall. Making it an innate ability i.e. a natural talent. Coach might not have known she had that talent, but she did regardless. Kanos posted:She doesn't win by talent or skill, she wins by courage and belief. Okay. I wasn't actually talking about talent, skill, courage or belief though; I was talking about hard work and guts and that I think Nono embodies those qualities more than Noriko because she worked hard for no reward for a long time and with no apparent reward or motivation in sight beyond the ones she set herself. The only reason I mentioned talent or skill at all is to point out that humans have those things too, and that that includes Noriko since even if she hadn't trained until that point to release her potential; it was still there all along and that a human cannot simply train to overcome physical human limitations any more than a robot can. Kanos posted:Nono goes through a whole lot of poo poo to get to where she does, but unlike Noriko, she absolutely does have superhuman potential that no one else can ever match up to. So does Noriko. Unless lightning kicks aren't a superhuman skill by your metric. tsob fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 16:55
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tsob posted:Which doesn't change that despite never training for it, she breaks out a lightning kick that no-one has mentioned or implied until that point if I recall. Making it an innate ability i.e. a natural talent. Coach might not have known she had that talent, but she did regardless. You're super focused on the Inazuma Kick, which is honestly a meaningless bit of eye candy. When Noriko busts it out against the rear end in a top hat school bully for the first time it's meant to show that Noriko's wheel-spinning and effort have finally begun to bear fruit, and nothing more; you could replace the Inazuma Kick with her ducking under an attack and punching the rival in the chest, or any other mundane maneuver that displays piloting ability, and it would serve the same narrative purpose - a moment of catharsis to prove that Noriko isn't incapable of learning despite it seeming like she's been butting her head into a wall uselessly the entire time. Kazumi is implied to be able to Inazuma Kick too - in fact, she's the one who recognizes the move the first time Noriko does it! Somehow that doesn't make Kazumi protagonist material, though. Noriko's hard work and guts are necessary to bring her up to a baseline level of competence so that she can leverage her true strengths, which are her courage and belief. The first three and a half episodes of Gunbuster are Noriko basically getting kicked on her rear end over and over and losing and watching her friends die or lose all of their faith in her because she sucks and is worthless and they pity her and want to keep her out of harm's way. It's not unearned or easy at all. Nono's journey is different because she's not initially consciously forced to live up to a legacy like Noriko is. She's just doing stuff because she wants to. She wants to be a Topless because she thinks the Topless are cool as hell and she wants to emulate Nonoriri/Noriko, and she wants to be Lal'c's friend because she thinks Lal'c is cool as hell. She is assisted in her journey several times by her impossible superhuman powers, like when she first becomes Topless-adjacent because she busts out her awesome robot powers and beats a monster in the beginning and when she's shuffled off to nowhere in the middle of the big climactic battle but is able to rejoin the battle because she suddenly activates her warp powers and turns into an unstoppable Buster Machine. I'm willing to concede that she undergoes a lot of effort and emotional abuse in the course of her journey but her biggest turning points to achieving her dream are achieved directly because she's a superhuman robot rather than as a result of her working super hard for it. If she didn't have superhuman robot powers she wouldn't have gotten close to the Topless in the first place and she would have probably have remained stuck out in the middle of nowhere while the other Topless got murdered.
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Oct 23, 2018 17:28
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tsob posted:So does Noriko. Unless lightning kicks aren't a superhuman skill by your metric. Its the mech that does it though? She just pilots the mech well enough to do the maneuver that Kazumi also recognizes and she spends the whole episode training to pilot a mech. Unless you're saying that the Buster Beam is also a superhuman power? Nono goes through a lot and certainly has hard work and guts, but she's also a magic space robot with super powers compared to a regular human schoolgirl whose every victory is based on not giving up, whereas some of Nono's are based on not giving up and also having superpowers (like being able to actually perform the Inazuma kick with her own body).
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Oct 23, 2018 18:44
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Kanos posted:You're super focused on the Inazuma Kick, which is honestly a meaningless bit of eye candy. I mention it because the fact she can do it kind of highlights my point. Plus, it's a big flashy thing she does at several key moments that is essentially her signature attack. The power to do it was inside her all along. You can replace "the power to do lightning kicks was inside her all along" with anything else though. She always had the power to "duck under an incoming attack and then gut punch her rival" too if that makes the point clearer. Which is that all training did with her was allow her to do something that was always physically possible for her and training doesn't allow her to do things that aren't already within human limitation. Kanos posted:It's not unearned or easy at all. I don't recall saying it was; only that I think Nono embodies those qualities better because she worked harder for a longer time and less reward. Kanos posted:If she didn't have superhuman robot powers she wouldn't have gotten close to the Topless in the first place and she would have probably have remained stuck out in the middle of nowhere while the other Topless got murdered. If she didn't have superhuman robot powers she wouldn't be alive in the first place presumably, and would have died millenia ago. If she was still in the current age though she'd have at least made it to the restaurant in the first episode, which is in a large city as far as I recall. The topless might have died, but she'd have gotten that far and probably continued trying to get further. EthanSteele posted:Its the mech that does it though? Then why does no-one else use it despite it being such a powerful attack? Why are high-school training robots equipped with such a lethally powerful move in the first place? Why are other hard workers not being trained to use it? EthanSteele posted:Nono goes through a lot and certainly has hard work and guts, but she's also a magic space robot with super powers compared to a regular human schoolgirl whose every victory is based on not giving up, whereas some of Nono's are based on not giving up and also having superpowers (like being able to actually perform the Inazuma kick with her own body). This is basically the crux of my argument. I don't buy that Nono's hard work is less valid than Noriko's because while Nono is a robot and her powers are innate, so are any humans. Training for a few months doesn't allow you to surpass human limitations; only personal ones. Noriko's training doesn't allow her to do something humans in general were never capable of; which is why I mentioned the lightning kick.
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Oct 23, 2018 23:44
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e: okay I'm really confused about what this point with the kick is.
Caphi fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Oct 24, 2018 |
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Oct 24, 2018 01:24
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A common viewpoint I've seen and one that Etansteele among others seem to subscribe to is that Nono's hard work counts for less because she's a robot so she always had the power to do the things she did; Noriko always had the power to do everything she did as well though, whether that's lightning kicks or just running a lot. Training only allowed her to surpass personal limitations, not biological ones. Noriko had to work to do the things she did and get where she did, but so did Nono.
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Oct 24, 2018 01:37
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Nono's hard work counts for less in the context of the story for me because her hard work is ultimately tangential to her achieving her dream. At the very best you could make an argument that her deciding to work as a waitress and then a janitor put her in a position to realize her dream, but they actually had nothing to do with her becoming the space hero she wanted to be. If she didn't have magic robot powers she would have remained a waitress forever, because the Topless would have never picked her up and she would have never have been in a position to have her great awakening. This theming is supported by the show itself basically screaming at the top of its lungs that the only people who are allowed to be space heroes are people who have special powers and then virtually confirming that narrative by the big hero....being one with special powers. The entire plot of the first four episodes of Gunbuster is Noriko working to grow into the hero she needs to be. The entire framing of the plot is built around Noriko growing from zero to hero, and the big payoff at the end of episode 4 is only good because it's a cathartic release for all of that work. Even the way she wins her big fight is purestrain Noriko, because she wins it by letting the space monster almost kill her so she can hit it because she's not a good enough pilot to do it any other way but god drat it she's gonna do it. Nono's great ascension isn't quite as punchy for me, because Nono spends the early part of the show doing meaningless odd jobs and soaking up huge amounts of emotional abuse from a cast of jerks and assholes for no real purpose other than treading water and remaining in her current position while patiently waiting for the plot to decide that she's allowed to be a hero now. It doesn't feel like she works her way into her power like Noriko, it feels like she was waiting for the plot to allow her to go Super Saiyan because she doesn't want Lal'c to get Krillined.
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Oct 24, 2018 05:26
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Kanos posted:Nono's hard work counts for less in the context of the story for me because her hard work is ultimately tangential to her achieving her dream. At the very best you could make an argument that her deciding to work as a waitress and then a janitor put her in a position to realize her dream, but they actually had nothing to do with her becoming the space hero she wanted to be. If she didn't have magic robot powers she would have remained a waitress forever, because the Topless would have never picked her up and she would have never have been in a position to have her great awakening. This theming is supported by the show itself basically screaming at the top of its lungs that the only people who are allowed to be space heroes are people who have special powers and then virtually confirming that narrative by the big hero....being one with special powers. Except it doesn't. Lal'C's the one who saves the day, after all, both by killing the Space Monster and by giving the speech that makes Nono fight when the odds seem to be zero. And she does it right after she's slammed back to normal. The show spends a lot of time talking about how only superhumans can fight the space monsters, with a midpoint switch from Topless to Nono, but it's all a feint, as it hints early on by having "Nonoriri" be assumed to be a Topless since, you know. Ace pilot. She had to be, right? In the end, though, when all hope is lost and Nono's ultimate weapon falters, Lal'C pulls out the save by going old school, climbing into the real cockpit of her Buster Machine, popping on the old uniform, and yelling about HARD WORK AND GUTS.
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Oct 24, 2018 06:53
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Kanos has said it better than I couldtsob posted:Training for a few months doesn't allow you to surpass human limitations; only personal ones. Yes. This is literally the theme of Gunbuster. Noriko isn't special at all other than she doesn't give up and that's the message of the entire show, that anyone can achieve their dreams if they just put in hard work and guts. She only does things that any human could conceivably do. Nono does things that she can only do because she's special. That is why a lot of people consider Nono's hard work and guts level to be less than Noriko's.
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Oct 24, 2018 08:58
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chiasaur11 posted:Except it doesn't. Except that doesn't scan to me. I think it's pretty disingenuous to say that Diebuster isn't really hard up for superpowered characters. All of the fighting in the show until one scene at the very end is accomplished by people with superpowers and even the very final conflict about the triumph of hard work and guts and humanity is utterly dependent on someone with superpowers. This is a sharp contrast to Gunbuster, where everyone is extremely human and bound entirely by human limitations. If Nono didn't have special powers which she uses liberally, Lal'c would have potentially died in episode 1, and would have definitely died when the True STMC woke up and massacred the topless the first time. Hell, if not for Nono having superpowers, Lal'c would have been the one to literally destroy the Earth that Noriko and Kazumi were going to return to by ramming it into the STMC. Lal'c definitely helped finish the job in the end, but it was effectively a layup. She was only able to do so because Nono was a buster machine with robot powers that enabled her to get to that point in the first place. Hell, even the final attack is done by Nono and Lal'c together, and it's Nono's special powers that prevent the resulting black hole from killing everyone anyway. Lal'c is important to this scene, but she's a deuterogonist like Kazumi rather than equal in importance. Lal'c revelation about hard work and guts without Nono's superpowers would have accomplished nothing at worst and at best would have killed the monster and then wiped everyone out with an uncontrollable black hole. Kanos fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Oct 24, 2018 |
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Oct 24, 2018 09:05
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I know this is a bit of a throwback, but does anyone know if there were ever any mecha-centric artbooks released for Eureka Seven? Or any artbooks that included details of the mechanical designs even? I pulled out my kits of the R606 and R909 recently, and there are a number of improvements I would like to make, but my preference is to work from the original art, and aside from the basic stuff on MAHQ all I've got to go on are screencaps I made when the show was available on Netflix. Alternatively, if anyone has the TransModel action figures that were made of the 606 and 909 and could take some detail photos for me, that would also help.
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Oct 24, 2018 16:40
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So I had ordered that SD-Blu-ray of Ideon from Right Stuf. I got an e-mail from them today.quote:We are so bummed [REDACTED]! Hopefully the HD version comes through- it was weird that we were ever getting an SD-Blu-ray to begin with. Looks like the page for the SD-Blu-ray of Xabungle is still up though.
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Oct 24, 2018 19:39
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I am very glad to hear that!
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Oct 24, 2018 19:51
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Raxivace posted:So I had ordered that SD-Blu-ray of Ideon from Right Stuf. I got an e-mail from them today. Got that mail yesterday, kind of holding my breath on Xabungle now too.
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Oct 24, 2018 19:59
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Kanos posted:She was only able to do so because Nono was a buster machine with robot powers that enabled her to get to that point in the first place. Kanos, I get what you're saying, but read this as if Nono was instead something Lar'c piloted instead. At some point "Pilot couldn't defeat their enemies without their vehicle" just scans wrongly. In this case, and I think we see this a lot with Dix-Neuf and Lar'c relationship too even though he's silent, their friendship is the important part here. Do we say Noriko has super powers because she pilots a Buster Machine because she couldn't kill Space Terrible Monsters without it? No, of course not. At some point you break the person from their tools. Yes, Lar'c and Nono have super powers / abilities that are beyond human ability, but it's their human traits that allow them to succeed in the end.
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Oct 24, 2018 21:22
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Potsticker posted:Kanos, I get what you're saying, but read this as if Nono was instead something Lar'c piloted instead. At some point "Pilot couldn't defeat their enemies without their vehicle" just scans wrongly. In this case, and I think we see this a lot with Dix-Neuf and Lar'c relationship too even though he's silent, their friendship is the important part here. Do we say Noriko has super powers because she pilots a Buster Machine because she couldn't kill Space Terrible Monsters without it? No, of course not. At some point you break the person from their tools. Yes, Lar'c and Nono have super powers / abilities that are beyond human ability, but it's their human traits that allow them to succeed in the end. It's kind of hard to separate people from super powers as opposed to their machine, because one is interchangeable between people and one is inherent and inseparable from each individual person. Kazumi or Jung could have climbed into the Gunbuster and probably piloted it better than Noriko did in episode 4; in fact, it's a running theme of the early parts of the show that Jung and Kazumi are generally considered the Top Ace Chosen Ones and literally fight over who is the best of the best while both of them view Noriko with a mixture of sympathy and pity, and when Noriko climbs into the Gunbuster the first thing everyone thinks is "oh god, she's going to die". The same isn't true of Diebuster, where no one could possibly do what Nono or even Lal'c did because they're extremely special. I guess that fundamentally, to me, them being inherently special people with totally unique abilities devalues the "hard work and guts" messaging. "Hard work and guts" works so well for me as a theme in Gunbuster because Noriko is absolutely not special in any way, but she makes herself special by dint of working her rear end off and never giving up or saying die, surpassing people who are her superiors in every possible way at the outset.
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Oct 25, 2018 02:07
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You're not wrong and if it devalues the message for you, that's fair too. I certainly understand your position. EDIT: Thinking on it a bit more, I want to add and express that really do agree with you that Gunbuster is the stronger of the two shows due to Noriko being an average human who is explicitly not the best at what she does and that that's the important thing here. Potsticker fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Oct 25, 2018 |
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Oct 25, 2018 04:11
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I like when the robots fold their arms and stand there like cool dudes
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Oct 25, 2018 14:56
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The important thing about diebuster that makes it better than gun is that the Lal'c Nono romance is way better realized than the Noriko Kazumi one. It's a stronger relationship built over the course of the series and is the centerpiece of the whole thing. It's not a power fantasy of getting stronger from hard work and guts like gunbuster is, it's a teenage love story with the ups and downs that entails. Sharkopath fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Oct 25, 2018 |
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Oct 25, 2018 14:59
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Very Incredulous Goon, watching a teenage girl profess her desire to commit glorious martial suicide and live together as stars forever with her bestie: This doesn't seem like a romance to me.
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Oct 25, 2018 15:06
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NEWS FLASH: Story not written as love story not as good a love story as actual love story.
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Oct 25, 2018 16:53
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Sharkopath posted:The important thing about diebuster that makes it better than gun is that the Lal'c Nono romance is way better realized than the Noriko Kazumi one. It's been a while since I've seen Gunbuster, but the Noriko and Kazumi's relationship didn't come across as romantic to me, and so criticizing it for not being realized seems rather beside the point.
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Oct 25, 2018 16:55
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Schwarzwald posted:It's been a while since I've seen Gunbuster, but the Noriko and Kazumi's relationship didn't come across as romantic to me, and so criticizing it for not being realized seems rather beside the point. Maybe that's because Noriko reminisced about Smith like they'd been in a deep and meaningful relationship (despite knowing each other for, like, a week) and Kazumi went and married Coach after spending episodes 1-4 obsessing over him? And most of that after they'd already started partnering up? Just, you know. Spitballing here.
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Oct 25, 2018 19:00
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Schwarzwald posted:It's been a while since I've seen Gunbuster, but the Noriko and Kazumi's relationship didn't come across as romantic to me, and so criticizing it for not being realized seems rather beside the point. Yeah, their relationship is pretty emphatically not romantic and I'm positive it was never meant to be, so it's a pretty weird point to criticize. Kazumi's greatest emotional trial is her breaking down at the thought of not being able to be with Coach before he dies, and Noriko has a whole lot to say about Smith. Even their episode 6 reunion after being apart for fifteen Kazumi-years due to time dilation is basically like "hey buddy" instead of a reunion of people in love. Lal'c and Nono could probably be read that way, but that's because Diebuster's narrative hangs a lot harder on the relationship between Lal'c and Nono than Gunbuster does on Noriko's relationship with Kazumi.
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Oct 26, 2018 04:40
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Noriko and Kasumi's relationship in the first episode has some class S genre trappings (basically proto-yuri) but again those are probably more just the Aim For the Ace cliches poking though.
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Oct 26, 2018 09:34
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Hey bozos, check this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3ZszWyfyuE
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Oct 28, 2018 02:29
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Finished Tekkaman Blade, just watched the first episode of Tekkaman Blade II. Not used to Aki staying on-model from scene to scene. It's weird.
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Nov 5, 2018 04:46
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FYI, Karakuri Circus is basically a mecha show, and it's cool and fun in an old-school way so far.
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Nov 5, 2018 20:55
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Well, Bones has hosed Eureka 7 completely If what I've been told is correct, the setting for the new movies is "Every ending is non-canon. Manga, Special, TV, spinoffs. All non-canon. The canon Timeline is that Eureka accidentally kills Renton while piloting the Nirvash. So she's basically been trying to create illusions for herself while being the command cluster of the Scub Coral. Basically using the Coral to create "dreams" for herself to escape in where she can be happy." I hope that isn't true, but well... bones.
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Nov 11, 2018 09:55
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times like this i'm glad kawamori's canon policy for macross is that everything we watch is also an in-universe fiction, so there's no hard canon per se.
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Nov 11, 2018 10:16
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