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All stories are imagined and the audience implicitly understands them to be imagined and in the space between what is true and what isnt makes the context of the story Your definition describes all fiction ever without clearly showing how fantasy is distinct
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Nov 14, 2018 22:57
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The Ninth Layer posted:dragons are imaginary even if the dragon speaks English.
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Nov 14, 2018 23:03
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Mel Mudkiper posted:All stories are imagined and the audience implicitly understands them to be imagined and in the space between what is true and what isnt makes the context of the story "it has wizards" Fantasy is horrendously stuck in a very limited set of Tolkein-via-DnD type stories. You could take all your posts from yesterday, replace "dragon" with "fantasy novels" and it'd still work.
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Nov 14, 2018 23:03
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This is usually the point when I mention that I wrote my senior thesis in college on how to properly define the genres of scifi and fantasy so I am being socratic as gently caress right now There is an explicit answer to the question but it is just never an answer genre fans like
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Nov 14, 2018 23:05
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The distinction is that fantasy disregards the real world in favor of an unreal alternative. The events of Gravity's Rainbow may be unreal but it doesn't work if World War II never happened. Infinite Jest does not work without the existence of our real world Alcoholics Anonymous. Peter Parker is still a Brooklyn resident. John Wayne's cowboy characters are still in the American West. Middle Earth exists independent of our reality, arguably in opposition to it. Middle Earth's illusion is not shattered if you forget about America. Neither is Fillory's, because even as Grossman's school is set in America, it is nevertheless a version of America that explicitly is not ours.
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Nov 14, 2018 23:09
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What makes the America of Grossman not "our" America? By your definition The Great Gatsby is fantasy because West Egg is a wholly imagined addition to an America that doesnt exist
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Nov 14, 2018 23:11
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Mel Mudkiper posted:What makes the America of Grossman not "our" America? The fact that there are secret undetectable magical schools in it that lead to alternate realities with talking animals. There is nothing in The Great Gatsby that could not exist in our world, and The Great Gatsby does not claim to be set anywhere else.
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Nov 14, 2018 23:14
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The Ninth Layer posted:The fact that there are secret undetectable magical schools in it that lead to alternate realities with talking animals. I get the idea that what you define as what can and cannot be allowed to "exist" in our world is largely up to your own convenience. White Noise has drugs that allow people to mistake words for actions. Is that allowed to exist in our world? Like, hell, wait till you find out about Magical Realism
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Nov 14, 2018 23:19
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Fantasy requires you to know about feudalism
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Nov 14, 2018 23:29
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A novel is Fantasy if you would be ashamed to be seen reading it.
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Nov 14, 2018 23:35
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Dirt Road Junglist posted:I read that one of the theories for the dog-dragon having 6 legs is that having extra legs showed how much more powerful it was compared to a boring ol 4 legged, non-mythical creature. The current official (idiotic) statement is that four legs represent the car (four wheels) and the other two the driver (two legs). It's so stupid it makes me angry. Besides, no fact or statement can convince me that they weren't picked for esoteric reasons. Six legs vs three legs? Dog vs cat? Both looking backwards? You know Agip has to have bought resource extraction permits from more than just the Italian government (yes Mel, I'm reading Blackwater) hackbunny fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Nov 14, 2018 |
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Nov 14, 2018 23:37
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Mel Mudkiper posted:again, this genre distinction sounds meaningful only as long as you ignore all the times the definition is wrong. Isn't your definition that fantasy is fantastical wrong almost all the time according to you. Genre as a whole comes from humans trying to shove things into near boxes because that's what we do whether it's justified or not, so when you come up with a hyper definite definition of what is fantasy is and rigorously judge everything to that standard, you are just a more highly educated version of the person who refuses to admit that a story is sci-fi because it featured FTL and that's impossible.
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Nov 14, 2018 23:40
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ShinsoBEAM! posted:Isn't your definition that fantasy is fantastical wrong almost all the time according to you. that's not my definition of fantasy as a genre ShinsoBEAM! posted:Genre as a whole comes from humans trying to shove things into near boxes because that's what we do whether it's justified or not, so when you come up with a hyper definite definition of what is fantasy is and rigorously judge everything to that standard and now you come closer to the truth
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Nov 14, 2018 23:45
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mel whats your idiot opinion on 19th century fantastic literature is the sandman by eta hoffman bad because eyes exist in the world
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Nov 14, 2018 23:51
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Not sure why you guys keep beating around the bush when the work's already been done for you.
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Nov 14, 2018 23:52
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CestMoi posted:mel whats your idiot opinion on 19th century fantastic literature is the sandman by eta hoffman bad because eyes exist in the world there is no fantasy written in the 19th century Fantasy as a genre is an invention of the 20th century
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Nov 14, 2018 23:53
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Mel Mudkiper posted:There is an explicit answer to the question but it is just never an answer genre fans like What part of the bookstore does the publisher ask for it to be shelved in?
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Nov 14, 2018 23:55
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Thranguy posted:What part of the bookstore does the publisher ask for it to be shelved in? literally yes
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Nov 14, 2018 23:55
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Did you read the page that I linked, Mel? It opens with two very helpful and specific quotes.
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Nov 14, 2018 23:58
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Sham bam bamina! posted:Did you read the page that I linked, Mel? It opens with two very helpful and specific quotes. I hovered over the link and saw what it was and consider the suggestion that I click it to be violence
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Nov 14, 2018 23:59
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quote:"Fantasy isn't just a jolly escape: It's an escape, but into something far more extreme than reality, or normality. It's where things are more beautiful and more wondrous and more terrifying. You move into a world of conflicting extremes."
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Nov 15, 2018 00:00
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Mel Mudkiper posted:there is no fantasy written in the 19th century what about william morris?
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Nov 15, 2018 00:01
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u fucker
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Nov 15, 2018 00:02
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Rule of thumb: Say there are vampires in New York. If the existence of vampires doesn't shock anyone, but the fact that they're vampires is constantly being pointed out, it's Urban Fantasy. If a cop's partner is very pale, very strong, generally acts odd, and come to think of it, he's never been seen in daylight, but the story focuses primarily on just a Police Procedural or the interpersonal relationships, it's Maybe Magic, Maybe Mundane. If the cop just goes through his life as a cop, but his partner is a vampire whose ID has "vampire" printed next to his eye color, who's greeted by cheerful children in the street who are more fascinated by his shiny badge than by his teeth, and who casually drinks blood in plain sight out of transfusion packs during coffee breaks, it's a case of Magic Realism.
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Nov 15, 2018 00:02
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Call-Back: Jose Arcadio Buendía discovers a Spanish galleon during one of his expeditions. It shows up every now and then as the generations pass.
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Nov 15, 2018 00:06
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CestMoi posted:Rule of thumb: Say there are vampires in New York. +1 Insightful
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Nov 15, 2018 00:06
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Badass Bookworm: Archimboldi.
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Nov 15, 2018 00:15
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Fanservice: Hela the witch is naked for most of her scenes (although see below for how that's sometimes not a pleasant sight) and Margarita and Natasha, once they become witches, spend most of their time naked as well. Show Within a Show: The Master's novel. edit Jerkass Woobie: Centurion Marcus, "Ratkiller". Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Nov 15, 2018 |
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Nov 15, 2018 00:19
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u fuckers
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Nov 15, 2018 00:23
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I don't believe that these are real quotations from TV Tropes because they don't include the words "BRUTAL" or "BRUTALLY".
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Nov 15, 2018 00:34
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I get the idea that what you define as what can and cannot be allowed to "exist" in our world is largely up to your own convenience. White Noise still asks you to examine this impossible thing with respect to our own reality. In the same way that the movie of Infinite Jest though unreal cannot be distanced from the context of modern society. They have unreal or fantastical elements but at no point are these stories asking you to discard or ignore reality. For the purposes of both stories reality is inescapable. The fantasy genre is distinguished by its escape from reality. Naomi Novik's telling of the Napoleonic War but with dragons may borrow from historical events and settings but it is explicitly distanced from those events. The Hobbits share our calendar and some of our cultural traditions but they are otherwise isolated from concerns of the real. The Magicians takes place in our world, but not really; it is fundamentally a story about escaping reality That the fantasy genre facilitates an escape from reality is its primary appeal. It is also the genre's greatest weakness and most of the criticism of fantasy stories in this thread are along the lines that either a book has not explored the implications of its departure from the real or that it has not departed far enough to the satisfaction of the critic. This is to miss that for fantasy fans the departure IS the appeal.
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Nov 15, 2018 01:10
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Wait why is gravity's rainbow inseparable from WWII but the napolean with dragons is separable from the napoleanic wars
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Nov 15, 2018 01:12
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Mel Mudkiper posted:napolean
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Nov 15, 2018 01:19
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Sham bam bamina! posted:How are you less literate than the guy who reads dragon Napoleon books? Dont get snippy at me because you lost the dragon war
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Nov 15, 2018 01:23
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Wait why is gravity's rainbow inseparable from WWII but the napolean with dragons is separable from the napoleanic wars They are not, you cannot separate either story from their respective wars. But Pynchon's story is set in the World War II of our reality even if unreal events permeate the narrative. Whereas Novik's story is set in the Napoleonic Wars of another world entirely with events that explicitly contradict the shared history and reality of our own world. Even as I have to suspend my disbelief about a giant Marine climbing into the cavernous poo poo encrusted plumbing of a bathroom toilet drain to retrieve his harmonica, the narrative is still asking me to consider that this happened to a real person in the real world, even if the person and the world are entirely in the imagination of me and the author. There is no such presumption in a story about Napoleon riding a dragon; I may consider it as real in the context of the story, but no further than that Pynchon wants me to take seriously the existential doom of bombs falling on London in pseudorandom distributions even if the ultimate explanation for this distribution is absurd and comes down to Slothrop's erections. At no point does Novik want me to take seriously the devastating effect of fire breathing dragons on 19th century naval warfare. Instead I am supposed to dump out my knowledge of real world history to make the story work.
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Nov 15, 2018 01:46
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The Ninth Layer posted:They are not, you cannot separate either story from their respective wars. But Pynchon's story is set in the World War II of our reality even if unreal events permeate the narrative. Whereas Novik's story is set in the Napoleonic Wars of another world entirely with events that explicitly contradict the shared history and reality of our own world. But The Magicians and Harry Potter both explicitly take place in our reality with the suggestion that there is something about our reality most people don't realize
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Nov 15, 2018 01:48
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Magic with rules is physics because magic by definition is mercurial and unknown. If magic in your story is able to be quantified and measured and understood, its not magic. Its just a different sort of physics than in the "real world" This is something that has always bothered me about Harry Potter. They're going to school for magic. The magic is explicitly not magical.
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Nov 15, 2018 01:56
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Mel Mudkiper posted:But The Magicians and Harry Potter both explicitly take place in our reality with the suggestion that there is something about our reality most people don't realize They are also explicitly stories about escaping from the problems and constraints of our reality. They are both rejections of the real world in favor of hidden worlds unfettered by the issues of the modern day. Rowling is not asking us to think about how magic would shape our world. She is saying forget this world, picture one where magic exists everywhere! This is even part of the narrative where the entire Muggle society is an afterthought and has almost no bearing on the wizarding world. The characters themselves think our reality is utterly unimportant. The Magicians is concerned with our own reality only to the extent that Quentin and other characters desire to escape it. This is undeniably the major theme of the series. The Magicians works as a critique of escapist fantasy but it is also undeniably itself escapist fantasy. People like Quentin definitely exist in our world but Quentin himself leaves our world within the first ten pages of his story.
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Nov 15, 2018 02:06
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The Ninth Layer posted:They are also explicitly stories about escaping from the problems and constraints of our reality. They are both rejections of the real world in favor of hidden worlds unfettered by the issues of the modern day. Now you are just using fantasy as a trap-all term for escapism what about novels like the Narnia series or His Dark Materials in which the characters enter into a fantasy world not to escape from the real world but to better understand their place in the real world. I mean by your definition the Phantom Toolbooth isn't a fantasy story because it explicitly sends the message to not escape from reality but to face it Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Nov 15, 2018 |
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Nov 15, 2018 02:09
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Trying to figure out whether Gulliver's Travels is fantasy or science fiction.
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Nov 15, 2018 02:11
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