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zapplez posted:So just to be clear, its not worth trying to ban alcohol because even with its gigantic cost to society, its worth it so people can get drunk. Literally none of those is dying instantly from alcohol, as evidenced by all of them being things that happen after drinking large quantities of it, and not from being in the same room as an angry sober person with a bottle of wine.
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Nov 16, 2018 04:42
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zapplez posted:Still not getting my point. We know that alcohol has an immense social cost to our society. Its a huge negative. It affects much more people than firearms. But we allow it legally because as a society we are willing to have things that can hurt us and not just ban them. The thing is my dude, guns cars and alcohol are all different things. They should all be regulated by the government because all three can be dangerous if misused. or in the case of guns, if used at all. But they should all be regulated differently because they are different things. I can't emphasize this enough, cars aren't guns. Beer isn't a gun. Beer isn't even cars! The way the government regulates those three different things are important discussions to have, and lord knows I've got some strong fuckin opinions on cars. But right now we're talking about guns. Not cars or alcohol or Oxycontin or lawn darts or any of the millions of other things that aren't guns.
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Nov 16, 2018 04:43
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It's also worth pointing out that banning alcohol massively reduced the amount of consumption and thus the harm it was inflicting. It also created organized criminal syndicates. Win some, lose some.
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Nov 16, 2018 04:43
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zapplez posted:I just really appreciate that when it comes down to it, you think its not fair when its your hobby getting banned. Even though you know there are millions of irresponsible drinkers that will most certainly end up at a real chance to beat or kill their wife, or cause a DUI fatality, etc. Its important you get to drink mead while playing Morrowind. If you ignore the arguments being made you don't win them, buddy.
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Nov 16, 2018 04:43
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zapplez posted:I just really appreciate that when it comes down to it, you think its not fair when its your hobby getting banned. Even though you know there are millions of irresponsible drinkers that will most certainly end up at a real chance to beat or kill their wife, or cause a DUI fatality, etc. Its important you get to drink mead while playing Morrowind. No, I just think your argument is bullshit because you're trying to make it about the morality of banning anything at all instead of going "Jesus Christ this is hosed up let's do a very obvious thing to fix it" I collect comic books. If it turned out that actually comic books cause a huge number of deaths a year, I would burn every single one of them, because dead children are not a price I'm willing to pay to enjoy my hobby. Don't take mt refusal to engage with your disingenuous horseshit as admitting defeat. I just won't get in this fight with you, because it's old, it's tired, and frankly everyone who trots this out should be locked up because they're a danger to society.
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Nov 16, 2018 04:44
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zapplez posted:Maybe you will start to understand why target shooters get antsy with the "melt all the guns" talk. Well those guys are gonna feel pretty dumb when they find out bows and arrows exist. And crossbows and airsoft guns and paintball guns and trebuchets and all kinds of other projectile weapons they can use for their fun games that have absolutely zero chance of ever being used to do a school massacre
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Nov 16, 2018 04:46
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Can't wait for you to bust in and go OH YEAH WJAT ABOUT THE DECENCY HEARINGS SMART GUY like the decency hearings caused by air quotes delinquents reading comics when everyone read comics are remotely comparable to wanting to ban guns because PEOPLE KEEP GETTING loving SHOT Edit the hearings didn't even ban comics, they just put incredibly strict limits on the contents of them!
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Nov 16, 2018 04:46
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Gripweed posted:Well those guys are gonna feel pretty dumb when they find out bows and arrows exist. And crossbows and airsoft guns and paintball guns and trebuchets and all kinds of other projectile weapons they can use for their fun games that have absolutely zero chance of ever being used to do a school massacre BB guns are loving rad, and you can even use them for pest control!
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Nov 16, 2018 04:47
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Like I a: don't drink and b: would love to own lots of guns and shoot them for fun, but in neither case is it beneficial for the rest of society to universalize my preferences and because I'm not a loving sociopath I can recognize that.
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Nov 16, 2018 04:50
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I know some of you think I'm trolling at this point but I am really just trying to get you to see to me at this point its a philosophical question. We obviously disagree on how effective we think certain legal gun control measures would work. (Although I've agreed with about 95% of all gun control policies posted in this thread) My question is , as a society when do we decide that the prohibition of a given item is necessary because of the common harm it provides? Is it 1 million in damages? 10 child deaths ? 1000 inner city deaths? 5000 wives abused? 10000 DUI fatalities? 100000 people dying of cirrhosis? I guess I view guns as a somewhere in between say knives and alcohol in societal cost. And if you aren't willing to give up alcohol like I'd give up guns, why is that? Is it because irresponsible people are the problem, not the device itself? I don't think a total prohibition would actual achieve the goals set out of having significantly less homicides. I think that can only come from true societal improvement.
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Nov 16, 2018 04:51
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zapplez posted:I know some of you think I'm trolling at this point but I am really just trying to get you to see to me at this point its a philosophical question. Well we would definitely have significantly less mass shootings. Let's start with that. Also your philosophical point is one that gets made constantly. Nobody agrees with it.
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Nov 16, 2018 04:52
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Can't wait for you to bust in and go OH YEAH WJAT ABOUT THE DECENCY HEARINGS SMART GUY like the decency hearings caused by air quotes delinquents reading comics when everyone read comics are remotely comparable to wanting to ban guns because PEOPLE KEEP GETTING loving SHOT Trust me, I understand the pain and urgency you feel for getting better gun laws so people stop dying. If you had an aunt who was killed by a drunk driver, maybe you'd also have that kind of passion about those deaths too.
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Nov 16, 2018 04:53
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zapplez posted:Trust me, I understand the pain and urgency you feel for getting better gun laws so people stop dying. If you had an aunt who was killed by a drunk driver, maybe you'd also have that kind of passion about those deaths too. Do you have any actual arguments against banning guns, or do you really think this hypocrisy-seeking angle you're working on is gonna do the trick?
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Nov 16, 2018 04:56
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zapplez posted:Trust me, I understand the pain and urgency you feel for getting better gun laws so people stop dying. If you had an aunt who was killed by a drunk driver, maybe you'd also have that kind of passion about those deaths too. And yet here you are not trying to stop people from possessing items whose sole purpose is inflicting massive injury or death, I truly feel your compassion
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Nov 16, 2018 04:56
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zapplez posted:I know some of you think I'm trolling at this point but I am really just trying to get you to see to me at this point its a philosophical question. Mate you're consistently ignoring the point that there has yet to be a plan to get rid of alcohol that doesn't create a bunch of other problems whereas there are lots of countries in the world which got rid of guns without problems. So while it would be great to stop people drinking we don't have a method of doing that. We absolutely do have a method of stopping mass killings and it involves banning guns. And "oh but I want to shoot them for fun" is not an acceptable counterargument to that. Your recreational preferences do not offset the utility of lots of dead children you utter psychopath. If banning alcohol were a thing that unequivocally worked as well as banning guns did then I would be entirely for it but it doesn't. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Nov 16, 2018 |
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Nov 16, 2018 04:56
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:And yet here you are not trying to stop people from possessing items whose sole purpose is inflicting massive injury or death, I truly feel your compassion Im not trying to stop jack poo poo. I want much tougher gun laws. I dont think "melting the guns" is the answer. Gun laws 101 2 week safety course Background check Interview the applicants spouse to confirm no concerns for DV 60 day waiting period No high capacity mags ( except for 22s) No sales to people currently being treated for depression or other serious mental health disorder Guns confiscated immediately after any domestic violence occurrence Much, much tougher sentencing on 2nd time weapons offenders (20-30 years) That would be a great start.
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Nov 16, 2018 04:59
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zapplez posted:Im not trying to stop jack poo poo. I want much tougher gun laws. I dont think "melting the guns" is the answer. Nope, just ban them, "they're my hobby" is not an excuse to own something whose sole purpose is inflicting massive injury or death Sorry
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Nov 16, 2018 05:01
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zapplez posted:Im not trying to stop jack poo poo. I want much tougher gun laws. I dont think "melting the guns" is the answer. I'm concerned about domestic violence too but I don't think that making it so a woman can't buy a gun without the consent of her husband is a good solution.
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Nov 16, 2018 05:03
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https://assets.publishing.service.g...il_2016_v20.pdf This works pretty well though obviously in the US you can't let the police be the licensing body.
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Nov 16, 2018 05:06
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Nope, just ban them, "they're my hobby" is not an excuse to own something whose sole purpose is inflicting massive injury or death Do you even want people to talk about this issue in D&D that don't share your exact viewpoint of total prohibition? This is why the thread was silent for months at a time. You get 1 or 2 guys that are willing to try and talk some points to the dozen that respond and at the end of the day, no matter what points I concede about gun control, the only acceptable answer or discourse is "MELT EM ALLLLLL"
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Nov 16, 2018 05:07
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zapplez posted:Do you even want people to talk about this issue in D&D that don't share your exact viewpoint of total prohibition? Maybe if they didn't lead off with some bullshit moralizing about banning hobbies I'd be willing to listen but you hosed that one up already so I'm not Also, you didn't concede poo poo you disingenuous gently caress (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 16, 2018 05:08
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zapplez posted:Do you even want people to talk about this issue in D&D that don't share your exact viewpoint of total prohibition? You weren't talking about gun control, dude. You were talking about banning alcohol and cars, which aren't guns. And when you did make some gun control suggestions I raised a specific criticism of one of your gun control ideas and you ignored it. Which, combined with your bizarre car tangent, raises doubts about your sincere interest in engaging in a substantive discussion about gun control
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Nov 16, 2018 05:17
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Gripweed posted:You weren't talking about gun control, dude. You were talking about banning alcohol and cars, which aren't guns. And when you did make some gun control suggestions I raised a specific criticism of one of your gun control ideas and you ignored it. Which, combined with your bizarre car tangent, raises doubts about your sincere interest in engaging in a substantive discussion about gun control I'd like to actually. You made a good point about the power difference between men and women in relationships. There has to be a better way to do it then. I still think its important for friends of the applicants to be called and see if they think they would be prone to violence.
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Nov 16, 2018 05:30
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I'm really weirded out by you calling drinking a "hobby". Like, we have a word for people who think drinking is a hobby. They're called alcoholics. This parallel really doesn't paint gun hobbyists in a good light. Because the equivalent would be someone chemically addicted to destroying things with metal projectiles. I'm not trying to do a "got ya" take, but just pointing out how flawed this rhetoric is.
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Nov 16, 2018 05:36
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zapplez posted:I'd like to actually. You made a good point about the power difference between men and women in relationships. There has to be a better way to do it then. I still think its important for friends of the applicants to be called and see if they think they would be prone to violence. Banning all the guns would be ideal, but I could see myself getting behind your suggestion. At that point we're basically doing a security clearance background check on someone before they're allowed to buy a gun. Which would take so long and be so expensive it would make buying a gun prohibitive for most people
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Nov 16, 2018 05:37
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At that point you would be better off adopting active licensing as the UK does.
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Nov 16, 2018 05:40
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zapplez posted:Do you even want people to talk about this issue in D&D that don't share your exact viewpoint of total prohibition? Wow it took the 11th page of the 20th thread on this topic for that lightbulb to go on for you?
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Nov 16, 2018 05:49
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Xiahou Dun posted:I'm really weirded out by you calling drinking a "hobby". I'm gonna rebut this by saying there's people who make a hobby out of being into like craft beer and poo poo and do it without being alcoholics
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Nov 16, 2018 05:52
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:I'm gonna rebut this by saying there's people who make a hobby out of being into like craft beer and poo poo and do it without being alcoholics Yes totally acknowledged. But I think we both know they’re not talking about people big into home-brewing a new stout. They’re trying to slyly mean people who get shitfaced at a bar and drive home unsafely. (Which is obviously unsafe and bad which is why we have laws about that). You are correct technically but it’s obvious what they mean and they’re using a bad argument. I like both booze and firearms (not together, obviously), but I can understand sane regulations on both.
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Nov 16, 2018 06:07
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Banning alcohol causes harm, gun control doesn't. That alone breaks the braindead guns=alcohol analogy completely.
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Nov 16, 2018 06:17
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The funny thing about america is how much it desires rationality to arise from the perfect adjustment of booze and gun laws, when the presence of such disagreements is practically a diagnosis for the country itself. What is the point of regulation if the point of life is to constantly ape the actions and postures of death? Add in a strong affinity for seeing alcohol as a cultural item, where moderation is always framed as the answer (abstention is of course a long recognized social issue) and we are well along the predicted path of particularly white men killing themselves and others on the downward curve of their emotional rollercoasters. A lot of these people hate themselves, and they drag others into their “revolution against the tyranny” of their own mind. You just know these people when you talk to them and they aren’t your neighbor who grew up hunting with dad or grandpa. There is a great poem by Charlene Yi that basically says “you say you love butterflies and have 38 pinned to your wall. I hope you don’t love me.” People in 2018 who save some of their breath FOR guns have a stunning idea of what is important in our lives. Fighting to prohibit guns I can understand, I’m not hopeful for them...but, what the hell do the people standing between the shooters and the public think they are doing? e: gently caress it, bring back the draft, and then let’s see how they feel about their sporting equipment when it just brings back the nightmares. e#2: I want to clarify that “these” people as I put it have PTSD and/or whole other cocktails of other struggles, the issues of which deserve compassion and love and support. But not throaty support for a “moderate” answer to their killing tools. Peacoffee fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Nov 16, 2018 |
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Nov 16, 2018 06:27
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As a society we are willing to accept that some people will die or get hurt from alcohol. Alcoholics don’t randomly massacre completely innocent strangers. That’s where we draw the line because that’s what we decided. And guess what? Booze is even more heavily regulated than guns!
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Nov 16, 2018 08:08
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zapplez posted:I just really appreciate that when it comes down to it, you think its not fair when its your hobby getting banned. Even though you know there are millions of irresponsible drinkers that will most certainly end up at a real chance to beat or kill their wife, or cause a DUI fatality, etc. Its important you get to drink mead while playing Morrowind.
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Nov 16, 2018 09:41
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Tab8715 posted:As a society we are willing to accept that some people will die or get hurt from alcohol. They literally do. Like all the loving time. We had a family of 3 taken out by a drunk driver last week in my area. Not to mention all the spousal and child murders that likely wouldn't have happened if the man was sober. This isnt some "lawn darts therefore!" joke. Alcohol is incredibly destructive to society in so many ways. It impacts far more than the firearms law. So we should keep it because you like picking up some IPAs to go along with playing red dead? Your pasttime of casual drinking is more important than millions of americans that are problem drinkers that are putting all their families and the general driving public at risk? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 16, 2018 12:47
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I like how after pages of gun and alcohol comparisons, your proposed laws dont include an age limit.
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Nov 16, 2018 12:54
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Gun culture is hosed up, and gun hoarders need to be institutionalized. That’s what we do here in France. In the past few weeks, three fellows were arrested by my colleagues. The first one had hoarded 18 guns,15 gun parts, a tank cannon with 9 shells, 14 grenades, 29 magazines, 6 rockets and 3292 bullets. The second one had 76 guns, and the third one had 31 guns including an AK-47 with 33 magazines and a bunch of ammo. All of them were arrested, of course, as is appropriate. They were a danger to society and thankfully the state had the ability to remove that danger.
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Nov 16, 2018 13:34
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zapplez posted:They literally do. Like all the loving time. We had a family of 3 taken out by a drunk driver last week in my area. At least one person has already pointed out that alcohol prohibition has been shown to be unworkable while gun bans are not, but let's ignore that a moment and imagine we agree that alcohol should be banned. Then what? You'd agree that guns should be banned? Or you'd pull another whataboutism?
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Nov 16, 2018 13:37
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Flowers For Algeria posted:In the past few weeks, three fellows were arrested by my colleagues. The first one had hoarded 18 guns,15 gun parts, a tank cannon with 9 shells, 14 grenades, 29 magazines, 6 rockets and 3292 bullets. The second one had 76 guns, and the third one had 31 guns including an AK-47 with 33 magazines and a bunch of ammo. But you see, in America they need them for self defense. The idea that some weapons explicitly designed for killing lots of people are okay, but others are not is silly.
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Nov 16, 2018 13:38
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The weirdoes that just hoard loads of guns continue to baffle me. Like you can't shoot all of them at once, unless you're gonna weld them all together into a giant organ gun you don't need that many.
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Nov 16, 2018 13:42
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bitterandtwisted posted:At least one person has already pointed out that alcohol prohibition has been shown to be unworkable while gun bans are not, but let's ignore that a moment and imagine we agree that alcohol should be banned. Alcohol prohibition was unworkable nearly 100 years ago, we could do a lot better today. If someone on the other side could admit "yes, we do need to ban everything that commits major harm" then we could actually argue about "what is major harm and how useful is X, what are the liberties we are willing to give up in a society or not?" To me, even though 90% of drinkers use alcohol responsibly as social drug, its not worth it for it to be allowed because of the amount of domestic violence,murder, traffic fatalities etc that are fueled by alcohol. To you, even though 99% of gun users have firearms to either use for recreation, pest control, or collecting, its not worth it to be allowed because of gun violence. Or to think about it another way, 99.99% of pools are used responsibly. But also 200 kids drown in them a year. Is it worth our recreation of having a fun backyard pool, so that we accept that hundreds of kids will die? If your honest belief is that "anytime a toy/hobby/etc can end up killing people, we need to ban it" we are going to ban a fuckload of stuff. vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Nov 16, 2018 |
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Nov 16, 2018 13:49
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