|
Joe Slowboat posted:I think one can hold that deprivation is immoral, even while holding the position that Nazis should be killed, driven out of the body politic, etc. You're wrong. Depriving them materially means that they lack the means to commit their acts of violence. You don't get Dylan Roof if he can't afford to buy a gun in the first place, or was too tired after work that he didn't have the willpower to plan their massacre. On the main point, we need to make sure these guys know that when they do this kind of nerd culture war it's their rear end-- the polar opposite of #getwokegobroke. Especially since so many of these guys are obvious grifters or are already marginal, taking away winning the alt-right lotto as a way out should go a decent way towards ending these populist movements.
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 21:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 08:35 |
|
|
Elephant Parade posted:
this is all slicing the moralistic ham. if we accept that racists and fascists all deserve to be deplatformed at the minimum, what happens to them afterwards is none of our concern. none at all. if they didn't want to live in a society where your ability to live is tied with your ability to work, they'd have been socialists to begin with
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 21:18
|
|
|
Nuns with Guns posted:You can tell they're desperate from how they're namedropping Gail in the hope that she'll find and share the post during her regular namesearches on Twitter. Tabletop RPGs being a shallower pool than even American comics means there's no major creators with a social media following near her level that they could use for incidental signal boosts in the same way. This the real answer to why Comicsgate failed, why MTGate failed, and hopefully why DnDgate will also fail. The pie is too small, and the responsible adults are able to exert enough control over the situation to make sure that you don't get to have a place in the industry after you pull this stuff. Both EVS and Hambly basically torpedo'd their success over it, because there's not enough of the alt right underbelly in those hobbies to support even one patreon grifter, much less the number that it would take to get this movement off the ground.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 21:26
|
|
|
rkajdi posted:You're wrong. Depriving them materially means that they lack the means to commit their acts of violence. You don't get Dylan Roof if he can't afford to buy a gun in the first place, or was too tired after work that he didn't have the willpower to plan their massacre. Did you think I was saying 'don't deplatform or deprive of resources' rather than 'deprivation is not the goal and should be rhetorically delineated for canticapitalist purposes?' In a functional society, one's ability to do harm would not be directly commensurate with one's ability to survive, and what you're doing here is saying 'I approve of capitalism as long as the people I don't like are poor.' It's not a sustainable solution to just capitalism the fascists into the ground, because capitalism is a not insignificant part of where they come from. The problem with the consumer advocacy model of antifascist organizing is that it's fundamentally limited, and can easily become a justification for capitalism - the 'market of ideas.' The real benefit of outing nazis at their jobs is not the idea that you could somehow undermine all nazis through getting the bosses to deprive them, but creating fear among nazis that they'll be next. Also lol gun control by applied capitalism, gently caress
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 21:37
|
|
|
weird day to click on the chat thread
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 21:48
|
|
|
Nuns with Guns posted:You can tell they're desperate from how they're namedropping Gail in the hope that she'll find and share the post during her regular namesearches on Twitter. Tabletop RPGs being a shallower pool than even American comics means there's no major creators with a social media following near her level that they could use for incidental signal boosts in the same way. It's likely, too, that with CG's 'leadership' in shambles (Richard Meyer having deleted his Twitter in accordance with his lawsuit and Ethan Van Sciver essentially starting what might as well be EthanGate) they're trying to pounce on something else that might even be easier. As you say, there's no Joe Quesada to call them out.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 21:55
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 22:35
|
|
|
Elephant Parade posted:I also don't think killing Western Nazis is remotely necessary or helpful. It's literally self defense. Also: "Western" Nazis?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 23:14
|
|
|
Eh, we already knew we're in the worst timeline.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 23:23
|
|
|
I think the issue here is conflation of goal, means to a goal, and consequences of a goal. If your goal is for Nazis to gently caress off and you consider said nazis starving naked in the gutter an acceptable or unavoidable route to or consequence of this goal given the current realities of our societal structure, that's fine. If your goal is a bunch of human beings starving naked in the gutter then that is less good.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 23:36
|
|
|
Otherkinsey Scale posted:It's literally self defense.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 23:37
|
|
|
Elephant Parade posted:The conversation was about Nazis in North American society, or so I assumed. Anyway, responding to murderous rhetoric with outright murder is not, in fact, self-defense. Correct, it's community service.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 23:39
|
|
|
Splicer posted:I think the issue here is conflation of goal, means to a goal, and consequences of a goal. If your goal is for Nazis to gently caress off and you consider said nazis starving naked in the gutter an acceptable or unavoidable route to or consequence of this goal given the current realities of our societal structure, that's fine. If your goal is a bunch of human beings starving naked in the gutter then that is less good. Yeah, basically this. 'Starving naked in the gutter' is not, in fact, an effective instrumental way to achieve most things outside of the particularly vicious form of our economy, and requires a society in which people starve naked in the gutter as a matter of course. I'd rather have both no starvation, and no nazis, and in fact I think a world without starvation would be a decent step closer to a world with no nazis (and definitely at least robustly social-democratic, and more likely actually socialist). Plus, I gotta say: I don't think economic oppression actually prevents mass shootings, in a country with cheap guns and given how nazi mass murderers know they're going to be either dead or arrested at the end of the day. If you were talking about Proud Boy type nazi organization, then economic immiseration could potentially work, but... Dylan Storm Roof didn't become a mass murderer because capitalist society gave him too much free time and money.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 23:42
|
|
|
Joe Slowboat posted:Yeah, basically this. 'Starving naked in the gutter' is not, in fact, an effective instrumental way to achieve most things outside of the particularly vicious form of our economy, and requires a society in which people starve naked in the gutter as a matter of course. to be clear: i don't think economic deprivation is an effective method of stopping nazis. oxygen deprivation on the other hand, now that tends to do the trick.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 23:47
|
|
|
Otherkinsey Scale posted:It's literally self defense. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 23:48
|
|
|
Elephant Parade posted:The conversation was about Nazis in North American society, or so I assumed. Anyway, responding to murderous rhetoric with outright murder is not, in fact, self-defense. That's an interesting philosophical claim. Legally speaking, though, the right to self defense includes reasonable threats of imminent physical harm. IANAL and all, but if someone says "I'm going to kill you" and makes clear they're going to act on it (for instance, by showing up in your neighborhood in an honest to god torchwielding mob) I think you'd have a pretty good case. Also, "Western" in the context of white supremacists isn't generally understood to mean "taking place in the western hemisphere", no. I'm glad you can still feel safe enough that your main concern is harsh rhetoric, but you might want to pay more attention to what's going on around you.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2018 23:56
|
|
|
Like you ain't gotta be a Nazi. That is a choice they make every day.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2018 00:48
|
|
|
Serf posted:to be clear: i don't think economic deprivation is an effective method of stopping nazis. oxygen deprivation on the other hand, now that tends to do the trick. The only deprivation nazis should have to deal with is deprivation of not-being punched in the face. loling at someone coming in and saying that maybe we shouldnt poo poo on nazis in every way possible, every waking moment until they are stamped out of existence. Burn every aspect of what they are, every aspect of their life. They have chosen the most hideous and unrelenting ideology possible. They have chosen to follow a doctrine of evil, a doctrine of abuse, a doctrine of horror. Punch every loving nazi, every way possible and never stop. kingcom fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Nov 20, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2018 01:09
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:Like you ain't gotta be a Nazi. That is a choice they make every day. This is true, but it's also important not to overestimate the extent to which people pass into and out of ideologies through the influence of their communities. People are not rational decision-making engines, and no serious ideology promotes itself as a deliberate commitment to evil. The most moral thing you can do with respect to nazis is to make it completely socially untenable to be a nazi. This means a comprehensive program of both self-defense, including lethal violence if it's your best option, but also providing people with every incentive and opportunity to stop being nazis. Protecting people from fascist violence should always be the first priority. But we also have a moral duty to weaken the ideology's ability to spread itself by any means, and that includes reform, shame, education, and publicly discrediting the ideology in any way possible. And, while it's a distant third, I would even say we have a moral duty to people with horrible ideologies to change their minds when you can, especially when it comes to children. I've talked about this once or twice before, but I was raised by Holocaust denier parents. I was ostracized and confronted for my beliefs growing up every time I let them slip, and to this day I am incredibly grateful to everyone who stepped up and challenged me. I don't mean "treated me as an equal worthy of debate", either, because as I alluded to before, that's not really how deprogramming works. I specifically mean a flat rejection of everything I stood for. I was reformed because as a nazi I would have been rejected from every community I cared about.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2018 01:44
|
|
|
retribution is a garbage justification for anything, but that doesn't matter because you owe it to nazis to punch them
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2018 01:48
|
|
|
Joe Slowboat posted:So I've been thinking I want to run at least a one-shot of Spire sometime soon, and then I realized what a great Spire plot would be: This is amazing
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2018 01:57
|
|
|
^^^Also yeah, I know it got lost in the latest debate about whether it's cool to punch Nazis, but this is 100% a great idea for a Spire campaign and hell, you should pitch it to Grant and write it up.Tuxedo Catfish posted:I've talked about this once or twice before, but I was raised by Holocaust denier parents. Jesus that's rough, sorry you had to deal with that. To springboard off what you said and tie it back to earlier comments and the post which kicked this whole debate off, part of making it socially untenable to be Nazis is deplatforming even if you can't, and shouldn't, count on capitalism to swoop in and save the day, but just because capitalism lacks inherent ethics doesn't mean that alt-right shitheads deserve to be able to make free use of the same means and methods of funding for their garbage projects as everyone else without consequence. A similar debate has been going on in the comics forum re: Comicsgate and their numerous pie-in-the-sky projects and it turns out that, actually, when platforms like indiegogo or Kickstarter shut down these groups' ability to fund themselves that it does actually have a tangible effect. Deplatforming isn't the end goal in and of itself but I have absolutely no problem suggesting that people who want to turn various hobbies into opportunistic grifts for right-wing welfare deserve to get kicked to the curb in addition to the many other methods by which their hateful ideology should be rendered untenable.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2018 01:59
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:To springboard off what you said and tie it back to earlier comments and the post which kicked this whole debate off, part of making it socially untenable to be Nazis is deplatforming even if you can't, and shouldn't, count on capitalism to swoop in and save the day, but just because capitalism lacks inherent ethics doesn't mean that alt-right shitheads deserve to be able to make free use of the same means and methods of funding for their garbage projects as everyone else without consequence. A similar debate has been going on in the comics forum re: Comicsgate and their numerous pie-in-the-sky projects and it turns out that, actually, when platforms like indiegogo or Kickstarter shut down these groups' ability to fund themselves that it does actually have a tangible effect. Deplatforming isn't the end goal in and of itself but I have absolutely no problem suggesting that people who want to turn various hobbies into opportunistic grifts for right-wing welfare deserve to get kicked to the curb in addition to the many other methods by which their hateful ideology should be rendered untenable. Although I wonder if the hypothetical "DnDGate" would be as financially viable as ComicsGate has been. And even as I say 'viable' it's only such to the less than half-dozen ringleaders of CG, most of whom have again either "left" or gone silent because they're getting in over their heads. There's been a ton of these alt-right nerds who've tried their own projects because it worked for Uncle Ethan and Dickie and gotten bupkis. Is there enough of a crowd to give Pundit or James D 400K to own the libs?
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2018 02:35
|
|
|
Dawgstar posted:Is there enough of a crowd to give Pundit or James D 400K to own the libs? I really doubt that there is - the TRPG scene is small potatoes, and trying to appeal to niche within a niche within a niche is going to reduce your audience to maybe a couple thousand people at best, and then only a portion of those will shell out money. The most one could hope for is if you get picked up by the Mercers or the Kochs or Prager U or whatever to prop up your grift ala Milo Y. I have no doubt that certain people are hateful enough to want to try and do this regardless, but it's not even a profitable grift like trying to push for far-right poo poo in any other sphere.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2018 02:55
|
|
|
The American right probably isn't going to give any iteration of D&Dgate or what-have-you a single dime because a lot of them are still-living fundie fucks who remember the Satanic Panic and D&D being a cult tool. As long as the old guard is still alive, they'll look at you like you're crazy and asking them to make a check out to the Devil.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2018 03:00
|
|
|
Dawgstar posted:Is there enough of a crowd to give Pundit or James D 400K to own the libs? No.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2018 03:10
|
|
|
James Desborough's patreon is the highest it's ever been right now and he's making the princely sum of $132 a month to make dumb youtube videos. I've also remarked in the KS thread that there seems to be very little market for things like hard-right or "politically incorrect" board games and card games coming out to shovel money at anything with a MAGA hashtag or jokes about building the wall. Nonetheless should Vox Day get a wild hair to write Advanced MYFAROG 2E I won't shed a tear should indiegogo decide to pull the plug on him yet again.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2018 03:19
|
|
|
Neither Pundit nor Desborough could make it big riding on both gamergater and comicgater coattails for years. There's no way they could manage to lead a DnDGate into relevance. They're destined to always be fringe nobodies that can't go five minutes without trying to talk up Gor or go on about what mediocre pipe tobacco mixes they're puffing on while wearing embarrassing hats. Magic the Gathering has a wider audience than any tabletop RPG, and I think that's unfortunately reflected in more successful harassment campaigns launched by regressive MTG youtubers. It hopefully won't go anywhere, either, unless they can find some woman in a leadership role at WotC that they can blame some unpopular card ruling on or something.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2018 05:55
|
|
|
 Thanks, D&D DM group.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2018 00:05
|
|
|
Moriatti posted:
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2018 00:16
|
|
|
Elephant Parade posted:lmao. Such an anti-fun DM he won't even let other groups break the rules The best part is that it's a statted mount from a module I'm running. Also I'm pretty sure Pathfinder has Allosaurus as one of it's default companion animals?
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2018 00:18
|
|
|
This is a good opportunity for the Paleontology (paleontological?) community, as he obviously knows a lot about dinosaurs. Maybe he even tried to tame one himself!
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2018 00:20
|
|
|
Moriatti posted:The best part is that it's a statted mount from a module I'm running. It 100% does.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2018 00:25
|
|
|
Moriatti posted:
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2018 00:36
|
|
|
Moriatti posted:
The correct answer is that if you're using 28mm nominal scale miniatures, an adult allosaurus cannot be made to fit on a 2" square base without chopping it up and stacking its meat into a pillar. That said, there are tons of allosaurus minis out there: http://ironwindmetals.com/store/index.php?cPath=271_315 https://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/dinosaur/latest/02996 https://www.facebook.com/antediluvianminiatures/?fref=ts
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2018 00:41
|
|
|
lol Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 07:26 on Nov 21, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2018 00:42
|
|
|
The correct answer is that you can't tame an allosaurus, just convince it of the righteousness of your cause so that it'll join you of its own free will
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2018 00:48
|
|
|
Elephant Parade posted:lmao. Such an anti-fun DM he won't even let other groups break the rules If player's have fun at other tables they might not want to play at mine. Need to nip that in the bud.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2018 00:54
|
|
|
senrath posted:It 100% does. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2018 01:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 08:35 |
|
|
I'm ordering this one from my LGS as we speak so thank you. Never thought to look at similar looking dinos.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2018 01:30
|
|