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I can't believe people are actually defending this poo poo. You don't get to destabilize entire countries and create incredibly compelling reasons for people to need to immigrate and then talk about how it's the immigrants responsible for right-wing populism's return. It's neoliberal policy that needs to be repudiated.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:31
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Is there a variation of the Trolley Problem where inaction means that everyone dies, including the operator? Now there's a purity test.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:32
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Wilhelm posted:This is a very utopian well-wishing view that would rapidly lead to mass chaos and riots; giant waves of impoverished people without adequate resources or work will rapidly turn to crime and form ghettos. Unless the solution is Europe forms forced labor colonies or something There's plenty of resources and work for them in America and before Trump destroyed them there were refugee resettlement support networks in place. In the final analysis *the wealth of nations is in their people*, and more.immigrants = more people = better than. If they need support then give it to them, it's a worthwhile investment.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:32
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If Hillary was going to put together a committee that would honestly tell her that running for President was a bad idea they would have told her that two times already. Once of her biggest weaknesses is she values loyalty over competency in her staff. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Nov 22, 2018 |
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Nov 22, 2018 16:33
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Agent Burt Macklin posted:https://twitter.com/mollyjongfast/status/1065627922466304001?s=21 It's being challenged and also has a few... logistical issues.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:36
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:All of them had open borders until WWI this is also a bad take like yes sometimes an ethnicity like a pole could cross a border to another polish village or something (before everyone got mostly rearranged into their respective countries by the soviets and others) but formal citizenship etc didn't happen. it's a bit easier when lots of people are subsistence farmers vs depending on a national infrastructure/benefits etc also and mobility was way less of a thing, if the EU declared 100% open borders and free citizenship tens of millions of people would wave in and lead to chaos unless ~perfect socialist government~ somehow gives all the newcomers well paying jobs and residences and not bad ghettos of unemployed people stealing copper and killing each other
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Nov 22, 2018 16:37
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Agent Burt Macklin posted:https://twitter.com/mollyjongfast/status/1065627922466304001?s=21 Haven’t you learned by now that literally everything he says is a lie?
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Nov 22, 2018 16:37
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Sephyr posted:Well, at least bashing immigrants will give democratics something to do to fill their time after they legislate their own agenda into political oblivion. Looks like centrists will never meaningfully resist fascism no matter what level of support they have from the public and will instead inevitably aid its spread. Oh hey who saw this one coming? I'm telling you people that you cannot trust sociopaths who are interested only in furthering their own careers to do the right thing when the rubber meets the road. They will always sell you out, and they will always look out only for themselves- and they will always have gone out of their way to prove this to you if you just ignore their rhetoric and judge them purely by their actions.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:37
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Wilhelm posted:and mobility was way less of a thing, if the EU declared 100% open borders and free citizenship tens of millions of people would wave in and lead to chaos unless ~perfect socialist government~ somehow gives all the newcomers well paying jobs and residences and not bad ghettos of unemployed people stealing copper and killing each other you do realize it's pretty difficult to migrate.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:39
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Trump arguing with the Chief Justice of SCOTUS is hilarious.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:39
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Wilhelm posted:this is also a bad take oh please, germany had a welfare state in the 1880s well before militarized borders. not that a shock that a liberal will parrot the white supremacist talking point about immigrants stealing benefits from the welfare state
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Nov 22, 2018 16:39
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There's plenty of resources and work for them in America and before Trump destroyed them there were refugee resettlement support networks in place. You said earlier this would match a labor shortage - the only way this would do so is by having a middle east style system where the newcomers live in camps and make $2 an hour. you're either inherently condemning unskilled immigrants to a shittier life than a US citizen or you're creating a make believe situation where a skilled immigrant program could scale up infinitely there's a lot more nuance to this than in the 1800s where you could just dump people in a wasteland and hope their functionally independent farm worked out
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Nov 22, 2018 16:39
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Wilhelm posted:and mobility was way less of a thing, if the EU declared 100% open borders and free citizenship tens of millions of people would wave in and lead to chaos unless ~perfect socialist government~ somehow gives all the newcomers well paying jobs and residences and not bad ghettos of unemployed people stealing copper and killing each other Citation needed
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Nov 22, 2018 16:40
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That’s pretty much a fascist take on immigration
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Nov 22, 2018 16:40
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You could open the borders tomorrow and the nonwhites aren't going to flood into your country, good lord. America had a more or less completely open border with Mexico until 1965 and there wasn't a mass migration of Mexicans coming to steal white people's jobs and benefits
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Nov 22, 2018 16:41
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Groovelord Neato posted:you do realize it's pretty difficult to migrate. Look if you treat every human as if they are worthy of compassion and support then the unwashed masses will destroy society in their ignorant lust to consume free stuff. There just isn't enough wealth in the world to go around to give everybody a chance at a good life And no this isn't an obviously racist attitude wrapped in a couple layers of privilege- it's just pragmatic honesty.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:42
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There's plenty of resources and work for them in America and before Trump destroyed them there were refugee resettlement support networks in place. When I do the open borders thought experiment I always end up with a kind of urban-rural divide where there is a brain drain from the Nicaraguas and Venezuelas and we still end up with the current closed border system where anyone that has the capital and education boogies to the first world.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:42
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i support the tens of millions of poor immigrants as long as we immediately give them voting rights 
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Nov 22, 2018 16:43
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Sephyr posted:Well, at least bashing immigrants will give democratics something to do to fill their time after they legislate their own agenda into political oblivion. Love it when someone comes in with week old news that’s already been discussed in here to death. Also I wasn’t aware that Hillary, who will never hold elected office ever again, is Queen of a Democratic party that has spent the last 2 years successfully distancing themselves from her.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:43
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Wilhelm posted:You said earlier this would match a labor shortage - the only way this would do so is by having a middle east style system where the newcomers live in camps and make $2 an hour. you're either inherently condemning unskilled immigrants to a shittier life than a US citizen or you're creating a make believe situation where a skilled immigrant program could scale up infinitely Oh so you're an unapologetic fascist. Well allrighty then.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:43
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Nov 22, 2018 16:44
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if you braved life and limb (and likely gave up any wealth you had) to get somewhere you certainly "earned" the right to live there. far more than those of us that won the womb lottery.quote:“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
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Nov 22, 2018 16:45
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Prester Jane posted:Look if you treat every human as if they are worthy of compassion and support then the unwashed masses will destroy society in their ignorant lust to consume free stuff. There just isn't enough wealth in the world to go around to give everybody a chance at a good life There really are humans not ever worthy of compassion and support, though. They're just called Nazis and conservatives and bigots, not refugees and immigrants.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:46
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Kerning Chameleon posted:There really are humans not ever worthy of compassion and support, though. touche Shimrra Jamaane posted:Love it when someone comes in with week old news that’s already been discussed in here to death. LOL that you're actually kvetching that people are criticizing Hillary Clinton outside of what you have personally deemed as the appropriate/acceptable time frame. And people wonder why I constantly challenge the privileged attitudes evident in this thread.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:51
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Stexils posted:it's telling how all the neolibs who pursue free trade policies for capital get very concerned about the free movement of labor This is the opposite of my experience. Rather while ideological libertarians tend to be for free movement of people, When I worked with trade unionists in Pittsburgh they were often very critical of both tree trade and immigration. I don't think its an accident Trump did so well with this demographic by opposing both.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:53
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Pablo Nergigante posted:That’s pretty much a fascist take on immigration Most of my family are refugees living in western countries so yes unapologetic fascist here - I even got the benefit of being born under a stalinist dictator and having my hometown get massacred in the 1980s yes putting 0 restriction on citizenship is a workable and easy solution that wouldn't disenfranchise the people it purports to help - even when a country like France has mass unemployment and many of its migrants live on the streets currently. this is assuming it doesn't cause a popular backlash and extremist movements (we can go worse than blonde fat dumb guy populism's current vogue) This is more of a utopian vs cynical argument; unrestricted immigration is about as pragmatic as just fixing all the impoverished countries into being wealthy and modern
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Nov 22, 2018 16:54
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Wilhelm posted:You said earlier this would match a labor shortage - the only way this would do so is by having a middle east style system where the newcomers live in camps and make $2 an hour. you're either inherently condemning unskilled immigrants to a shittier life than a US citizen or you're creating a make believe situation where a skilled immigrant program could scale up infinitely Citation needed There are lots of refugee resettlement programs and those programs have expertise settling people in American society and if you listen to NPR for a week they're always interviewing people who have successfully integrated via those programs and now have jobs and lives etc. Of course those programs need funding but it *could* work, we know how to make it work, if we wanted to.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:54
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everyone in this forum that stan'd for Hillary should have to don a sackcloth, bath in ashes, and shut the gently caress up forever lmao
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Nov 22, 2018 16:55
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Prester Jane posted:Looks like centrists will never meaningfully resist fascism no matter what level of support they have from the public and will instead inevitably aid its spread. Oh hey who saw this one coming? It's still darkly amusing to see how they go about it, though. "poo poo, looks like we may finally get some margin to achieve something for our base, and if they learn of it they'll start pestering us for health care, rights, and other stuff that irks donors. Let's break our own arms and legs so we can't do anything even _if_ we get the chance. See guys, we -wanted- to help, but you wouldn't force a poor broken person like me to go out there, would you? It's be impractical! Let's stick to reality and compromise on a tax credit." Remember when the party hopped aboard the Tough on Crime wave and was no longer attacked as soft? Me neither. Remember when it jumped in with both feet on the War on Terror and no one called it weak on defense again? Drawing a blank here. Or when it cut the deficit in the Clinton and made a stimulus package that was 32% tac cuts? Surely no one would dare call them tax-and-spend fiscal wastrels anymore, huh? Well, about that.... Or when Obama deported almost 4 million immigrants? It's now impossible to get traction calling him an Open Borders freak, impossible, I tell you! Immigrants are being demonized and made into scapegoats to fuel the new fascists even in countries with barely any immigration, like Poland and Hungary. It's not just wrong to think that spending political capital in this subject will win any respite, it's MORONIC. And it's not what motivates them, either. They are far more clear-eyed in dealing with inner-party issues and securing their positions in the machine, so it's not a case of "herpa-derp, gonna go try and win moderate GOP voters in vain for the 64th time to no effect, Do'h!" . This is their actual ideology.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:55
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Groovelord Neato posted:if you braved life and limb (and likely gave up any wealth you had) to get somewhere you certainly "earned" the right to live there. far more than those of us that won the womb lottery. Just to be clear, I agree with this but that's not an open border policy and there does need to be a global solution to issues around migration.
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Nov 22, 2018 16:55
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Wilhelm posted:This is a very utopian well-wishing view that would rapidly lead to mass chaos and riots; giant waves of impoverished people without adequate resources or work will rapidly turn to crime and form ghettos. Unless the solution is Europe forms forced labor colonies or something lol gently caress off fascist
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Nov 22, 2018 16:56
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Prester Jane posted:If all you ever do is choose the Lesser evil that you will never have an opportunity to work towards a better world- you will instead exist in a quagmire of slowly accreting evil. I'm being very serious here, if there is no line at which you will not support the lesser evil than evil is all you will ever know. Because the lesser evil will inevitably give way to the greater evil on a long enough timeline, and meanwhile all that time spent supporting the lesser evil will have surrendered the field to evil without a single shot fired. I’ve taken steps I can’t really post in detail here with PoC I know should poo poo hit the fan and our glorious leader try to put other ~undesirables- in camps. I’m no centrist. I understand your meaning, but I firmly disagree that even the most milquetoast Clinton candidate would have ever put kids in camps or would keep them there. We disagree on political strategy, but that doesn’t mean that when it goes down that I wouldn’t die fighting for your right -and every other human’s right- to be who you (they) are in peace and safety. E: this is a fair post vv Prester Jane posted:Looks like centrists will never meaningfully resist fascism no matter what level of support they have from the public and will instead inevitably aid its spread. Oh hey who saw this one coming?
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Nov 22, 2018 16:58
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House Republicans subpoena Comey, Lynch for private depositions https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/22/politics/house-judiciary-committee-james-comey-loretta-lynch/index.html
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Nov 22, 2018 16:58
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Citation needed again I agree with the sources you go by, I'm more just skeptical it can appropriately scale up - Canada has punched well above its weight vs. the US for refugee resettlement (this is a good thing) but there's still certainly lots of issues & shortcomings. I don't think it can scale infinitely if you're going to administer a successful program yes the US could probably do 100x-200x more than it's doing currently doing; so yes when you're pick and choosing specific refugees in a tiny program vs the world's wealthiest economy your metrics will be way better
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Nov 22, 2018 17:00
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Squalid posted:This is the opposite of my experience. Rather while ideological libertarians tend to be for free movement of people, When I worked with trade unionists in Pittsburgh they were often very critical of both tree trade and immigration. I don't think its an accident Trump did so well with this demographic by opposing both. right, trade unionists aren't the ones proposing free trade, and they oppose immigration because they fear companies essentially hiring a bunch of scabs to destroy their union. i'm saying that the neoliberals who push policies like NAFTA or the TPP only care about capital and not labor. you can see this in how those policies destroy labor unions since companies can recruit from wherever they want, undermining union leverage. it also comes through in how they treat immigrants - rather than forcing companies to not hire non union workers leaders like obama simply deport people and restrict immigration, which shows they don't actually care about workers.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:02
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That's the thing though -- once you have America taking on 500k refugees instead of 50, that takes a lot of pressure off Europe.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:03
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Mooseontheloose posted:Just to be clear, I agree with this but that's not an open border policy and there does need to be a global solution to issues around migration. The global solution to immigration involves not bombing brown people and actually making their worlds better for them instead of better for us. But that’s really hard so lol
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Nov 22, 2018 17:05
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Wilhelm posted:Most of my family are refugees living in western countries so yes unapologetic fascist here - I even got the benefit of being born under a stalinist dictator and having my hometown get massacred in the 1980s Where are you from???
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Nov 22, 2018 17:06
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:That's the thing though -- once you have America taking on 500k refugees instead of 50, that takes a lot of pressure off Europe. Obama proposed 40k but by law we can only accept 10k without Congress authorizing more. The rest is history.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:07
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Wilhelm posted:again I agree with the sources you go by, I'm more just skeptical it can appropriately scale up - Canada has punched well above its weight vs. the US for refugee resettlement (this is a good thing) but there's still certainly lots of issues & shortcomings. I don't think it can scale infinitely if you're going to administer a successful program refugee resettlement would actually be extremely easy in the us if the government actually used the tools it has. for example if the feds built a bunch of public housing and an unskilled jobs program for those who couldn't find work you could scale it up more or less indefinitely.
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Nov 22, 2018 17:08
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