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FogHelmut posted:New Jersey So NJ law only says the rent increase cannot be “unconscionable”. Ugh. http://www.lawgapc.com/blog/understanding-rent-increases-in-new-jersey/ In New Jersey, a number of factors will be considered by the court in determining whether a given rent increase is unconscionable: The actual amount of the rent increase; The financial circumstances of the landlord (i.e., their revenue, profit, costs, etc.); How the new rent compares to the rent of other similar units in the general location; The power dynamic between the tenant and the landlord (how much bargaining power each has); and Whether the rent increase would surprise or shock a reasonable person. There is no law clearly delineating what is deemed unconscionable. As such, it’s critical that you have the support of an attorney who can advocate persuasively on your behalf.
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Oct 23, 2018 19:02
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Speaking of rent increases... I have a single family home near Richmond, VA that I've been renting since 2016 for $1595 per month. It rented the first time the day it went on the market, leading me to think I didn't charge enough. The tenant was excellent but broke her lease early in the 2nd year to move out of the area. Since she paid for the new lease fee with my management company and the rent while the house was vacant (about 6 weeks), I was told I couldn't raise the rent per Virginia landlord-tenant law. I assume I could have released her from the lease, not collected the rent and management fee, and raised the rent, but I didn't think about it at the time. Now, I'm about 8 months into the new lease. The market would probably support 1700-1800/mo rent, maybe more. Should I attempt to raise it on renewal? Or leave it the same if this tenant turns out to be a good tenant? They had a check bounce once, but other than that they've paid on time. They have also made a few maintenance requests so I know they aren't that kind of tenant that lets the house fall apart rather than call. Mortgage P&I+Tax is about $1300/mo. Home was built in the early 90s and has a 2010 heater and AC and a 2016 water heater. Plumbing is Quest but hasn't failed yet (almost 30 years) so I don't think it's going to need a replumb any time soon. Interior totally renovated in 2015.
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Oct 23, 2018 19:37
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Raise it $100 and say the single digit increase is due to taxes and insurance increases, which pretty much always happen anyways
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Oct 24, 2018 14:03
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Usually it's the city or whatever body that has maximum occupant restrictions. I've got places in four different cities and every one of them limits the maximum number of occupants. I like it because it lets me blame someone else. "Sorry you can't move your 16 person family into this 2 bedroom apartment. I'd let you because I'm super nice, but the city will not permit it."
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Oct 26, 2018 19:09
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poopinmymouth posted:To be more clear: what service is the landlord providing in this situation that the renter is paying for? Is Home Depot morally bankrupt for renting out tools? Is a roller skating rink morally bankrupt for renting out skates? The service is providing the thing you own for someone else to temporarily use.
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Oct 27, 2018 16:24
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paternity suitor posted:Is Home Depot morally bankrupt for renting out tools? Is a roller skating rink morally bankrupt for renting out skates? I uh.... don't think he was suggesting one would be morally bankrupt to be a landlord from another state, just that it was something he wouldn't feel as comfortable doing.
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Nov 13, 2018 14:03
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paternity suitor posted:Is Home Depot morally bankrupt for renting out tools? Is a roller skating rink morally bankrupt for renting out skates? The service is providing the thing you own for someone else to temporarily use. Hammers are neither a human right, nor is there a hammer crisis affecting every major city. Other than those foundational distinctions, good analogy!
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Nov 13, 2018 15:05
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I think we are really close to veering off the rails here, but even if hammers were a human right, it would not be the right of one private citizen to demand a hammer from another private citizen. If you feel that being a landlord is only ethical if done face to face with your tenant then that is fine but probably most people disagree and think that providing the housing (capital) and shouldering the risk and expenses is adequate justification to collect rent.
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Nov 13, 2018 15:26
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I’m pretty sure Very Serious Forums Poster poopinmymouth just has a fundamental issue with the concept of rent seeking in housing.
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Nov 14, 2018 02:22
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Back when that was posted, there was a parallel discussion going in the doomsday economics thread in which he was on the other side if I recall correctly.
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Nov 14, 2018 03:21
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Jealous Cow posted:I’m pretty sure Very Serious Forums Poster poopinmymouth just has a fundamental issue with the concept of rent seeking in housing. I don't have a problem with landlording but there is a spectrum from fair exchange over to exploitation, while still being technically legal. If the landlord*does* something themselves with their own labor on the property, it's more aligned with the former, and remote with property management the latter imo. "Providing capital* in a highly inequal society where tons of people can't afford to buy isn't enough to clear the morality bar imo. And when you don't see or touch the property or ever meet the renter, exploitation is more likely by virtue of the detached and insulated nature of the exchange. spf3million posted:Back when that was posted, there was a parallel discussion going in the doomsday economics thread in which he was on the other side if I recall correctly. Why not? There is a position between "all property is theft" and "if it's legal it's okay". To be even more relevant (though I think the above subject is 100% on topic) we are selling our rental property to the renter's we inherited from the previous owner. Assuming we close without issues in February (they asked for some time to get finances in order) the entire pursuit was very beneficial. But maintenance on three separate properties was too much for me to handle. Now we will have a renovated basement apartment, our current house rented out, plus guesthouse after I finish renovations on the new house we bought. Thread to follow that journey here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3867076 poopinmymouth fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Nov 14, 2018 |
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Nov 14, 2018 09:21
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Personally, it's just another investment, and landlording carries no more moral weight than buying an index fund. Emotions don't typically belong in business decisions and are probably the single biggest factor how people lose money by e.g. panic selling stocks.
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Nov 14, 2018 10:59
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baquerd posted:Personally, it's just another investment, and landlording carries no more moral weight than buying an index fund. Emotions don't typically belong in business decisions and are probably the single biggest factor how people lose money by e.g. panic selling stocks. First, it's not possible to make decisions as a human being without emotions, might as well acknowledge that every choice we make is influenced by our feelings and history and position in society and socialization. Just look at the hissing at the suggestion that the externalities of one's choices should be considered elicited in this thread. Second, unlike a hedge fund or hammer or roller skate rental, landlording involves human beings who are living in the asset. I feel this important difference is worth extra respect and thought. It's important to keep in mind that there is a power differential between renter and rentee. One would hope we're all in agreement that shoving more humans than firecode allows into a rental unit is wrong, or accepting sexual favors in lieu of rent is wrong, but the line gets fuzzier when talking about rent and the exchange of rental money for maintenance and time in the space. I think it's immoral to jack rent every legal chance to the maximum, or to be so separated from the space that you can't even physically visit or meet the renters. It enables the type of exploitation we read about every day where ICE is called, sexual favors are pressured, illegal subletting, etc. Amateur landlording is a relationship between two parties, and the power differential and fact that one person is living there means it should be both regulated and introspective, lest it turn into an arrangement like the Waltons, who profit immensely off the suffering of others, having never lifted a finger themselves. The more distance and separation between you and the person working and paying rent, the easier it is to be fine with immoralities that arise (assuming you even hear about them 3 states over).
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Nov 14, 2018 13:25
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poopinmymouth posted:And when you don't see or touch the property or ever meet the renter, exploitation is more likely by virtue of the detached and insulated nature of the exchange. Do you know if any research that supports this assertion?
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Nov 14, 2018 13:37
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poopinmymouth posted:The more distance and separation between you and the person working and paying rent, the easier it is to be fine with immoralities that arise (assuming you even hear about them 3 states over). You do you, but this is precisely why it's better not to be personally involved. The entire point to owning rental properties for me is to make money off of them, and if I'm personally involved in tenants' lives, it would be more difficult to do so with the increased emotional involvement. It is ideally a business relationship, nothing more and nothing less.
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Nov 14, 2018 14:47
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Jealous Cow posted:Do you know if any research that supports this assertion? No. I don't. But I find it illuminating that when someone suggests that renter's need to be treated like untrustworthy cheats everyone nods along as if it's a truism, but suggesting that physical distance and middle men will reduce the concern requires a dissertation. baquerd posted:You do you, but this is precisely why it's better not to be personally involved. The entire point to owning rental properties for me is to make money off of them, and if I'm personally involved in tenants' lives, it would be more difficult to do so with the increased emotional involvement. It is ideally a business relationship, nothing more and nothing less. I treat it like a business too, and we make money off our investments while remembering that human lives are involved and treating our renters as human beings rather than faceless money cows to milk.
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Nov 14, 2018 15:41
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poopinmymouth posted:I treat it like a business too, and we make money off our investments while remembering that human lives are involved and treating our renters as human beings rather than faceless money cows to milk. I only wish I could get one of these for renters: https://www.gea.com/en/products/milkingcluster-apollo-milksystem.jsp But seriously, unless you're taking advantage of mentally vulnerable segments of the population, everyone involved in a rental agreement is an adult that is able to be held to the terms of the contract. If there are no legal or contractual obligations being violated, there is no problem.
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Nov 14, 2018 15:49
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baquerd posted:I only wish I could get one of these for renters: https://www.gea.com/en/products/milkingcluster-apollo-milksystem.jsp This idea is absurd in 2018. We can see endless examples of human suffering and exploitation when looking at just landlord/renter relationships. And that's even when the contracts are being honored, let alone all the examples of them being broken. I want my renters to respect the space and my asset, pay on time, give me notice for things like vacancy, items needing maintenance, etc, and to recommend me if appropriate when looking for new renters. In return I maintain the space, fixing things as they break in a timely manner, give them notice for appropriate things, and try to be responsible of the power differential. Part of that is making sure I can visit the space myself to see the state of the building, make sure it's still standing, and *importantly* make sure I'm aware of any local housing issues so I can vote or make changes to better the city we both live in. This has included in the past moving from short term rentals to long term after learning of the housing insecurity for locals created by too many people removing former long term units for more lucrative short term rentals. Nothing illegal but immoral and unsustainable. Imo those of us in the extremely privileged position of owning more than one residence have an obligation, even if it isn't a legal one, to ensure we are not harming our renters or our societies through our choices, just as I want those with more privilege and power than myself to do the same.
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Nov 14, 2018 16:06
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poopinmymouth posted:Imo those of us in the extremely privileged position of owning more than one residence have an obligation, even if it isn't a legal one, to ensure we are not harming our renters or our societies through our choices, just as I want those with more privilege and power than myself to do the same. That's awesome that you're doing this sort of charity work and trying to maximize societal good, I really respect that! For me though, it's just asset diversification and and cash flow, and I don't think there's anything wrong with embracing honorable and contractual capitalism. For what it's worth, I do see my properties in-person on a yearly basis and talk to the tenants, but this is not for moral reasons but to more directly evaluate the property management company's ability to manage tenant retention and avoid unnecessary turnover.
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Nov 14, 2018 16:16
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poopinmymouth posted:No. I don't. Many of us have experience with bad tenants. I don’t have experience with what you’re suggesting.
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Nov 14, 2018 17:03
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A lot of us have experience with lovely landlords too. The adversarial attitude is probably a bad thing. Question as someone who stupidly agreed to be the head tenant with subtenants: We have the amount of tenants the lease allows. One of my roommates has a kid and a girlfriend that moved back to the state. They’ve expressed interest in having her and the baby move in. I like the idea, it’s a big house, we have room, and we like her, but I’m concerned about the landlord. I think that saying no would be family discrimination due to there being a baby in the picture, but since there are unrelated roommates I’m worried that he would say the unrelated subtenant would have to move out. Would that be legal? I’m kind of in the middle here and don’t know what laws apply.
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Nov 14, 2018 19:33
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Jealous Cow posted:Do you know if any research that supports this assertion? Actually I lied, I just didn't have access to all my saved notes while at work. Here is one example of lovely landlords whom have never met their renters. Visiting the buildings and meeting their renters probably wouldn't create a conscience in this group, but the extreme distance probably helped them sleep at night while screwing them over. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/predatory-equity-wall-street-screwed-over-renters-new-york-city/ baquerd posted:That's awesome that you're doing this sort of charity work and trying to maximize societal good, I really respect that! For me though, it's just asset diversification and and cash flow, and I don't think there's anything wrong with embracing honorable and contractual capitalism. Charity work is a really weird term for making a good profit while treating your "customers" with basic human dignity. If that's charity, can I call remote landlording misanthropy? We objectively have a problem with our current system not pricing in externalities, from climate change to racism to misogyny. It's really worrying how much objections are being thrown up to the idea of "treat your renters with basic respect, and being unable to meet them in person makes that harder to do". I'm not suggesting inviting them to thanksgiving dinner or letting them live rent free, just that you know what their faces look like while making decisions about their place of residence where they are building their lives. (and that proximity and respect will lesson the chances of exploitation, because we are social creatures and most people have functional empathy). poopinmymouth fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Nov 14, 2018 |
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Nov 14, 2018 20:49
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poopinmymouth posted:Charity work is a really weird term for making a good profit while treating your "customers" with basic human dignity. If that's charity, can I call remote landlording misanthropy? We objectively have a problem with our current system not pricing in externalities, from climate change to racism to misogyny. It's really worrying how much objections are being thrown up to the idea of "treat your renters with basic respect, and being unable to meet them in person makes that harder to do". I'm not suggesting inviting them to thanksgiving dinner or letting them live rent free, just that you know what their faces look like while making decisions about their place of residence where they are building their lives. (and that proximity and respect will lesson the chances of exploitation, because we are social creatures and most people have functional empathy). Not sure how treating tenants as being fully capable of making their own business decisions and not needing their hands held is taking away their human dignity. When I was renting a few years ago, I wanted to see as little of my landlord as possible and was fully capable of sending them code violation notices to make them fulfill their end of the bargain, so maybe there's not a single right solution for everyone. The beautiful thing about capitalism is you get to run your business your way and I get to run mine my way. You apparently want to take direct personal care of your tenants, and maybe the market will reward you for that. I want to run things remotely using a collection of contractual business agreements to fulfill my legal obligations and manage risk, and maybe the market will reward me for that.
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Nov 14, 2018 22:46
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Are there any other rentiers which are not based in the US? I would love to hear from you. I can also offer yuropean perspective, if anyone is interested. Lurking around, I got the impression there are some rather big differences in certain aspects - namely ROI ratios, mortgage parameters, or general legal landscape.
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Nov 23, 2018 20:16
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There’s someone from Iceland who posts, rental properties were one of the few things they could invest in when Iceland defaulted and cut itself off from global financial markets for a bit.
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Nov 23, 2018 20:26
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There's probably some subset of long-distance landlords for whom being long-distance landlords makes it easier for them to be shitheels, but that's an indictment of those landlords, not long-distance landlording. Of course, as a long-distance landlord it's harder to effectively and promptly respond to tenant complaints, but I'm not sure I'm on board with calling that a moral failing of long-distance landlording, though I can see how someone could get there. Anyway, I'm against long distance landlording just because it's a fuckin pain in the rear end.
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Nov 23, 2018 22:33
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Thinking about buying my first rental property out of state (I know) am looking for additional research to be done or like a checklist of sorts. I've looked into this a lot and have spoken with several people doing something similar, as well as have access to a lot of real estate professionals, but I guess I'm looking for unbiased opinion to make sure my people aren't just "yes-man"-ing me hoping to get a piece. I'm currently in NYC, which means buying/renting local is all but impossible, so I'm looking at some single-family homes in the midwest or the south. I don't mind traveling in very short notice if 100% necessary, but I would be leaning heavily on property management/friends/family local to the areas to handle as much as possible without my physical involvement. I'm happy to be on a phone all day problem-solving (I actually enjoy it), but I just can't be there physically often at all. I have a few properties in mind, all between 60-70k with maybe 5-10k in reno costs. I'm hoping to be able to purchase outright with cash to get a sizable discount on the sale (maybe pay 50 instead of 60?), or maybe even put 50% down so the mortgage is so low that in the event of non-occupancy I won't feel it too much. Similar properties in the areas I'm looking at typically rent between 7-900 depending on the size, so it sounds like a good investment. Just on a personal note, I'm complete debt free other than my monthly expenses here in NYC like rent/food/whatever and I have about 4 months of living expenses saved up in addition to the 60k I've put aside for this property. Basically looking for an alternative way to cash flow as opposed to just index fund investing, eventually to roll into 3 or 4 more properties in whatever area I land in. I guess the other option would be to put the 60k down on a multi-family but I feel like that's too big of an undertaking here for a first-timer. Am I completely nuts here? Any advice for my situation trying to break into cash flow and passive income with property rentals?
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Dec 22, 2018 16:38
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RoflcopterPilot posted:Thinking about buying my first rental property out of state (I know) am looking for additional research to be done or like a checklist of sorts. I've looked into this a lot and have spoken with several people doing something similar, as well as have access to a lot of real estate professionals, but I guess I'm looking for unbiased opinion to make sure my people aren't just "yes-man"-ing me hoping to get a piece. I wouldn't do it. If you're interested in real estate investing and you cannot be physically proximate to a property, you should look into private equity real estate investing and make your returns that way with the assistance of professionals. After the difficulty and expense of doing out-of-state diligence and understanding a completely foreign rental market on property purchases, the ongoing expense of property management, and the premium you are likely to pay dealing with contractors long distance, it will be hard to make enough money to make it worth your while. If you have a very trusted and able friend or family member who can do some of the property management for you that might change the situation. As far as purchasing cash, you will certainly minimize your risk and give yourself bargaining advantage as a cash buyer, but leverage is generally considered an essential part of maximizing returns in the real estate business. As far as financing is concerned, you will probably be unable to get a mortgage of say for instance $30,000 and if you do it will come with an underwriting rate and fee premium to make it worth the lender's while for such a small amount of money.
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Dec 22, 2018 17:16
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My renters moved out in October and I went to work refurbishing lots of little things (carpet, vinyl, fixtures, kitchen appliances) and put my rental house on the market on 12/18. I had 7 offers in hand on 12/19 and picked one that was above asking. I can't believe how quickly things are moving, looks like I'll no longer be a landlord in a couple of weeks.
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Dec 27, 2018 16:59
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RoflcopterPilot posted:out of state stuff BEHOLD: MY CAPE posted:I wouldn't do it. If you're interested in real estate investing and you cannot be physically proximate to a property, you should look into private equity real estate investing and make your returns that way with the assistance of professionals. After the difficulty and expense of doing out-of-state diligence and understanding a completely foreign rental market on property purchases, the ongoing expense of property management, and the premium you are likely to pay dealing with contractors long distance, it will be hard to make enough money to make it worth your while. If you have a very trusted and able friend or family member who can do some of the property management for you that might change the situation. I agree with this person, but I would like to add that it's possible that a multi-family will be better for you if you do it. I'm not completely convinced that there's any substantial difference between many multi-family properties and a house when it comes to it being harder for a beginner. A nice thing about a multi-family is that if you have a vacancy or two it can (depending on your exact circumstances) still be no big deal because the other units cover your direct costs. Also, because of that, you can afford to be less forgiving of tenant shenanigans because you're not counting on just one tenant to cover your costs.
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Dec 28, 2018 18:19
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I’d also consider what happens with management services in lower rent areas. My rental near Richmond, VA gets $1600/mo, so an 8% fee is worth the time to provide good management support. In NE Ohio most places charge 12-16% because rents are significantly lower, anyone who is renting is too poor to afford a house or a student, and everyone here are scam artist deadbeats. Everyone here tries to “beat the system” in every way possible, which means they do all the scummy poo poo bad tenants do even if they pay the rent every month, like pay on the 5th every month, skip last months because they assume they’re going to lose their deposit anyway, lie on their application, have roommates that aren’t on the lease, have pets without informing the landlord, not reporting maintenance issues, keeping the house too cold if they pay for gas and too hot if they don’t. So, yeah, the only way I’d do an out of state rental in any low-rent areas is if I had enough units to make hiring a full time manager worth it. Edit: this is a little excessively negative about the people of NE Ohio. My apologies. Jealous Cow fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Dec 28, 2018 |
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Dec 28, 2018 20:38
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Jealous Cow posted:
As a person from NE Ohio: you're not wrong at all. My cousin just got his renters evicted, and they destroyed the place. They even spraypainted "TRUMP" on 2 of the walls, which got an audible laugh out of me when I saw the photos.
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Dec 28, 2018 20:58
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Nocheez posted:As a person from NE Ohio: you're not wrong at all. My cousin just got his renters evicted, and they destroyed the place. They even spraypainted "TRUMP" on 2 of the walls, which got an audible laugh out of me when I saw the photos. I’m not from here. I’m from the west coast. I’m here because my wife’s family is here. This place destroys people and produces the meanest, hateful people I’ve ever dealt with.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:09
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Jealous Cow posted:I’d also consider what happens with management services in lower rent areas. My rental near Richmond, VA gets $1600/mo, so an 8% fee is worth the time to provide good management support. Hey are you me? (just kidding, sounds like NE Ohio is like Missouri)
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Dec 29, 2018 00:46
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Jealous Cow posted:anyone who is renting is too poor to afford a house or a student How much down payment do you typically need to purchase a student? And here I always thought that student loans were for education...
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Dec 31, 2018 05:22
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My current rental project: We bought a detached single unit house (an 8 year dream) and I'm renovating it. It is old and decrepit and that was the only way we could afford to buy such a property, a ready to move in of this type would be double, and we barely could afford the house as it is. It's too big for my family of 3 (plus dog, frequent visitors, and often foster kids) so we are turning the basement into a detached apartment to rent out, taking the stairs out of the interior, leaving it's exterior entrance. I'm really enjoying getting to custom build the space that will be rented. I'm making sure everything is as durable and overbuilt as possible, easy to clean, ventilation works properly, and overall just building with the knowledge gained from renovating and renting out our guesthouse on property #1, which I went a bit cheap on some materials, and didn't get to do a full rebuild, and I see the problems now just 5 years later that I'm trying to avoid with this new build. The iteration and experience is a nice aspect that I enjoy. What's crazy is that before I even signed on the property, word got out that we were planning to divide it in two and rent out the basement if we got it, and I already had a waiting list of 3+ friends who wanted to rent it out, 8+months before it could even possibly be considered ready. (the waiting list has since grown) That's how insane the Icelandic rental market is. Budget wise, we can ask a below average market rate that we feel good asking for, and it still will cover our mortgage payment for the house. (though we plan to churn through this mortgage in 5ish years like we did on our first house)
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Jan 1, 2019 12:45
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poopinmymouth posted:My current rental project: Cool! Be wary of renting to friends.
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Jan 1, 2019 21:48
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I just learned that you have to be a licensed real estate broker to perform property management duties in most states. This blows my mind, because it sounds so common for someone to pay a friend or family member to be their property manager for their house etc (which I was looking into). I'm guessing most people just skirt these laws? Some website lists these as some activities requiring a license: Marketing the property to potential tenants Showing the property to prospective tenants Negotiating lease terms Paying for services using the property's rent payments Depositing the rent into a trust, signing checks, or withdrawing money from the bank account Thesaurus fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Jan 2, 2019 |
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Jan 2, 2019 00:04
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Thesaurus posted:I just learned that you have to be a licensed real estate broker to perform property management duties in most states. This blows my mind, because it sounds so common for someone to pay a friend or family member to be their property manager for their house etc (which I was looking into). It is a relatively low bar to become a license real estate agent in most states. Are you doing this for property you own?
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Jan 2, 2019 03:18
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Thermopyle posted:Cool! Yeah, for sure. I meant more "acquaintances"
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Jan 2, 2019 09:12
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