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Did someone really just argue 'Frodo isn't written with a strong personality yet Sam is his devoted friend, therefore Sam doesn't actually like him and is no better than a trained animal'. Like, I get that it's fun to pick apart the old fashioned views of class in the story. But some people seem to elevate that to a total contempt for the books where everything is ironic or propaganda. Who reads this charming, earnest novel about hope and friendship in the world's darkest hour and thinks hmmm yes it would be much better if everyone was actually terrible so that it fits my interpretation of modern politics? This is how Momentum members actually see the world isn't it 
Strategic Tea fucked around with this message at 13:40 on Nov 24, 2018 |
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Nov 24, 2018 13:37
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tf is Momentum
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Nov 24, 2018 13:40
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Strategic Tea posted:
e: actually I don't want to row about UK politics in the Tolkien thread. But no, dude, no it isn't. You can be a left-winger and not necessarily hate any fictional portrayal of the class system or read it in the worst possible light. Momentum is a leftist cabal within the UK's Labour party that supports Jeremy Corbyn as leader and a move towards more traditional leftist politics, and away from neo-liberalism. HopperUK fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Nov 24, 2018 |
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Nov 24, 2018 13:42
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^ is on point to be fair, but Momentum doesn't contain all or even most of our left wingers. My impression is that they lean fairly strongly in the  direction. They tend to present the UK as a decaying dystopia, and conservatives as individuals who genuinely want to watch poor people suffer.I'll shut up about politics now.
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Nov 24, 2018 13:59
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Strategic Tea posted:But some people seem to elevate that to a total contempt for the books where everything is ironic or propaganda. Who reads this charming, earnest novel about hope and friendship in the world's darkest hour and thinks hmmm yes it would be much better if everyone was actually terrible so that it fits my interpretation of modern politics? Surely reducing the books down to a couple of bland buzzwords is treating them with more contempt than taking the time to examine what they say about class/race etc. in detail. Is it not more contemptful to act as though they're so alien to modern thinking that it's not worth taking what they say seriously? Tolkien took the time and effort to establish that the books are (a translation of) accounts written by four hobbits on the victorious side of the war. Acting like that is all irrelevant is insulting to the text and the author.
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Nov 24, 2018 14:00
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Lemniscate Blue posted:If Gandalf had been on schedule, they'd have set out on the journey months earlier. I don’t think this is true. Gandalf leaves at the end of June because he has heard some news that troubled him. He tells Frodo he might be right back but at the very least he’d be back for the predetermined departure date of Frodo’s birthday (September 20th). Gandalf was hoping Frodo left sooner, but when Frodo suggests his birthday, Gandalf instantly agrees to it. There was never any other plan or schedule.
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Nov 24, 2018 14:26
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Mahoning posted:I don’t think this is true. Gandalf leaves at the end of June because he has heard some news that troubled him. He tells Frodo he might be right back but at the very least he’d be back for the predetermined departure date of Frodo’s birthday (September 20th). Gandalf was hoping Frodo left sooner, but when Frodo suggests his birthday, Gandalf instantly agrees to it. There was never any other plan or schedule. I checked a timeline and I think you're right here, thanks.
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Nov 24, 2018 14:56
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Gandalf leaves Bag End in late June and near Bree meets Radagast, who tells him that the Nazgul have crossed the river and are headed west seeking the Shire. What Gandalf should have done is go right back to Frodo and tell him to leave immediately. He doesn’t though, because Radagast gives him a message from Saruman that he needs to go to Isengard immediately instead. This is why he trusts the fate of western civilization to Butterbur‘s memory. It’s not really Gandalf’s fault that he trusted an order from his superior, but he did make a serious error in judgment which he acknowledges when he tells this story at the Council: “Never did I make a greater mistake!”
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Nov 24, 2018 15:53
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skasion posted:Gandalf leaves Bag End in late June and near Bree meets Radagast, who tells him that the Nazgul have crossed the river and are headed west seeking the Shire. What Gandalf should have done is go right back to Frodo and tell him to leave immediately. He doesn’t though, because Radagast gives him a message from Saruman that he needs to go to Isengard immediately instead. This is why he trusts the fate of western civilization to Butterbur‘s memory. It’s not really Gandalf’s fault that he trusted an order from his superior, but he did make a serious error in judgment which he acknowledges when he tells this story at the Council: “Never did I make a greater mistake!” Later: "Hey guys let's go through Moria, it'll be great!"
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Nov 24, 2018 15:59
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Never did I make a greater mistake again!
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Nov 24, 2018 16:02
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Manwe or whoever was definitely right not to put Gandalf in charge of the wizards from the get go
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Nov 24, 2018 16:05
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It shouldn't have taken Frodo so long to get out of the Shire for the plot-reason that it's the slowest, least interesting part of the story. Tolkien was more concerned with realism and exploring his world than telling a story. Frodo should have taken the cart and gotten to the inn in three pages, and then they should have never met Tom Bombadil and gotten to the Council of Elrond within the first fifty pages.
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Nov 24, 2018 16:45
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There are a lot of things that Tolkien does that a professional writer would never, ever do, from his metaphysical, non-concrete prose to most of the pacing to an offscreen, never directly confronted villain to the long song digressions etc. Any one of them can be singled out as flawed but they all end up contributing to the whole somehow. Fellowship seems so innocent and leisurely and then whoooops
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Nov 24, 2018 17:13
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poisonpill posted:It shouldn't have taken Frodo so long to get out of the Shire for the plot-reason that it's the slowest, least interesting part of the story. Tolkien was more concerned with realism and exploring his world than telling a story. Frodo should have taken the cart and gotten to the inn in three pages, and then they should have never met Tom Bombadil and gotten to the Council of Elrond within the first fifty pages. Ehhh I partially disagree. The Black Riders pursuing Frodo creates some urgency and mystery early on. On this most recent read through, I really enjoyed the dramatic moment of Farmer Maggot taking the hobbits in his cart and Frodo hearing the footsteps of a horse approaching and worrying that it was the Black Riders. “I want Mr. Baggins, have you seen him?” only for it to be Merry...pretty cool. In fact it’s such a fun little dramatic and frankly cinematic moment that I’m surprised Peter Jackson didn’t include it in his script. I mean yes, the old forest, Tom Bombadil, the Barrow Downs, they do slow down the plot. In fact everything from Crickhollow to Bree could be cut out and you wouldn’t miss much. Especially since Bombadil is used as a deus ex machina against the barrow wights and then barely ever mentioned again except at the Council of Elrond which in hindsight comes off as Tolkien preemptively trying to eliminate talk of “why didn’t they just give the ring to Tom Bombadil since it held no power over him?”. That being said, I didn’t find those chapters to be as bad as I remembered on this read through. If anything, it makes the book really seem to fly once they leave Rivendell. (Ok maybe Lothlorien is a bit of a slog too)
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Nov 24, 2018 17:14
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poisonpill posted:Tolkien was more concerned with realism and exploring his world than telling a story. This is a surprisingly common take, but it’s factually inaccurate as to how Tolkien composed LOTR. Its world and history were made up on the fly to service his plot. The actual reason why book I is so relatively low key is because Tolkien thought he was writing the first half of a sequel to The Hobbit and not the first sixth of some weird war epic about destroying an ancient god.
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Nov 24, 2018 17:16
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sassassin posted:Later: "Hey guys let's go through Moria, it'll be great!" Going through Moria wasn't a mistake. Every single consequence to it is positive, except maybe Boromir dying later I guess. The party goes to Lorien, and the gifts they get there are invaluable to completing their quest. Gandalf gets to become a +1 wizard. Gollum starts following Frodo.
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Nov 24, 2018 17:31
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sweet geek swag posted:Going through Moria wasn't a mistake. Every single consequence to it is positive, except maybe Boromir dying later I guess. The party goes to Lorien, and the gifts they get there are invaluable to completing their quest. Gandalf gets to become a +1 wizard. Gollum starts following Frodo. Technically, because they were guided by Faith in a Catholic universe, it was in at least one sense impossible for them to make mistakes. Illuvatar's Plan, etc.
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Nov 24, 2018 17:33
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sassassin posted:Later: "Hey guys let's go through Moria, it'll be great!" Do you really think things would have gone better if they had gone a different way?
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Nov 24, 2018 17:35
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poisonpill posted:It shouldn't have taken Frodo so long to get out of the Shire for the plot-reason that it's the slowest, least interesting part of the story. Tolkien was more concerned with realism and exploring his world than telling a story. Frodo should have taken the cart and gotten to the inn in three pages, and then they should have never met Tom Bombadil and gotten to the Council of Elrond within the first fifty pages. I know a lot of people dislike that part of the story but it does a good job early of establishing the Hobbits as characters. That serves the book well later on when a lot of the post Rivendell stuff is more action packed.
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Nov 24, 2018 19:46
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skasion posted:This is a surprisingly common take, but it’s factually inaccurate as to how Tolkien composed LOTR. Its world and history were made up on the fly to service his plot. The world and its history were made up years and years before he started writing, the man was an utter nerd and this was a lifetime hobby of his. He liked languages so made up his own then wanted to make up a people who would speak them and a world in which they would live. JRR Tolkien his own self, in his own words posted:The invention of languages is the foundation. The ‘stories’ were made rather to provide a world for the languages than the reverse. [. . .] It is to me, anyway, largely an essay in ‘linguistic aesthetic’, as I sometimes say to people who ask me ‘what is it all about’ (Carpenter 219-220).
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Nov 24, 2018 20:26
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sweet geek swag posted:Going through Moria wasn't a mistake. Every single consequence to it is positive, except maybe Boromir dying later I guess. The party goes to Lorien, and the gifts they get there are invaluable to completing their quest. Gandalf gets to become a +1 wizard. Gollum starts following Frodo. Boromir dying also made Denethor end up wanting to kill himself which made Aragon taking the throne much easier so literally everything about Moria was the best thing for the characters.
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Nov 24, 2018 20:28
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Oracle posted:No. The history of the first and second ages, as well as the geography of beleriand, were set in stone long before he started working on LotR. None of the geography (besides what's in the hobbit) or more proximal history of the 3rd age was.
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Nov 24, 2018 20:42
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Also, what would have been the alternative to Moria? Going back was obviously no option, they had started dangerouly late as is and the Enemy was already on the move. Going further south would have led them through the Gap of Rohan, which was under the careful eye of known traitor Saruman, and in any case the countries to the west and north of the Gap were settled by Dunlendings loyal to Saruman, and the old roads leading through the area had long fallen into ruin. Going north and trying to take the same routhe through (or rather under) the mountains as Bilbo had done before was likewise hardly an option: not only were passes over the mountains very hard to come by (and hazardous even then) already by the time of the Hobbit, the route south to the left of the Anduin would have taken them perilously close to Dol Guldur, where no less than three Nazgûl had been stationed, probably along with a large number of orcs and trolls and other nasty things. In light of that as well as the possibility that Balin and his supporters might still have been alive, going to Moria was simply the smartest, or rather: least eminently dangerous way the fellowship could take.
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Nov 24, 2018 20:48
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Oracle posted:No. This is what I mean when I say that it’s a surprisingly common take. Even people who have read enough of him to know better can still come out with it on occasion. The foundation he’s referring to there is not that of Lord of the Rings, it’s that of his entire project of writing fantasy fiction. The Book of Lost Tales was created to justify Elvish/Gnomish, but The Lord of the Rings was created to satisfy Allen & Unwin’s desire for a Hobbit sequel. That Tolkien managed to come up with a mostly coherent backstory for LOTR that links it to the then-unpublished Silmarillion material is definitely interesting, but it shouldn’t influence our consideration of how he actually set out to write (particularly the beginning of) the book. If you don’t understand what I mean by this then seriously, read Return of the Shadow.
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Nov 24, 2018 20:52
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sassassin posted:Surely reducing the books down to a couple of bland buzzwords is treating them with more contempt than taking the time to examine what they say about class/race etc. in detail. Is it not more contemptful to act as though they're so alien to modern thinking that it's not worth taking what they say seriously? Perhaps. But interpreting literally every action in the worst possible light is a reduction all its own. It is funny, though. I'd love a sassassin analysis on the Galadriel/Celeborn dynamic.
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Nov 24, 2018 21:35
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Lemniscate Blue posted:There are two reasons the plan failed and Frodo barely escaped in time, and it was only both together that spoiled it. One, Saruman imprisoned Gandalf and delayed his return to the Shire (maybe Gandalf should have seen this coming but you can't blame it on Frodo's judgement). If Gandalf had been on schedule, they'd have set out on the journey months earlier. Lest we forget all of the time Gandalf probably spent getting sidetracked telling and retelling people about his beautiful horse friend. FFS, my favorite/least favorite thing about LoTR is the way Tolkien uses characters like Gandalf or Aragorn to do large exposition dumps, sometimes at random-rear end people like Eomer when they’re supposedly in the middle of doing poo poo, that start to veer out of character and into narrator territory. It’s one of the places where you can see that Tolkien was a scholar first and an author second. Like “ok, we don’t have much time and I gotta tell you guys about this apocalyptically dangerous thing and what we gotta do with it but also lemme tell you about how weird Saruman was leading up to him imprisoning me and also about the time I hung out with Radagast and he acted like an idiot goobus and also when I met with Theoden and he was an rear end in a top hat. But don’t worry I got the last laugh when I befriended the Best Horse. Holy poo poo, this horse you guys, you have no idea...”
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Nov 24, 2018 22:23
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Ynglaur posted:Perhaps. But interpreting literally every action in the worst possible light is a reduction all its own. Lothlorien is another hosed up class/race power structure. She's simply better than him and he's simply better than the people they rule, purely by their bloodlines. Some people are just born to follow (Noldor>Sindar>Silvan, lightest to darkest). I don't know if it's better or worse that Galadriel taunts her husband with this. The "world's greatest gift-giver" consolation prize she awards him is a brutal own. That Lothlorien fades and Celeborn has to move in with his grand kids is and interesting avenue of discussion. Exposed to outside influences and the progress of time perhaps such a rigid class-defined society cannot survive. Or does it fall simply because its ruler is no longer Noble enough once Galadriel departs? Tolkien also compares her physically to a man often enough to do some gender study if that's your area of interest. Personally though that's not my thing, and even Eowyn's story works better as a tale of noble obligation vs. the freedoms of lesser men, rather than a straight "girls can fight too" gender struggle.
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Nov 24, 2018 22:55
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sweet geek swag posted:Going through Moria wasn't a mistake. Every single consequence to it is positive, except maybe Boromir dying later I guess. The party goes to Lorien, and the gifts they get there are invaluable to completing their quest. Gandalf gets to become a +1 wizard. Gollum starts following Frodo. Gandalf died. He had to fight a fire demon for days and died alone on a mountain top. "Oh he got a power up" is a startling lack of empathy. Gandalf the White is (in his own words) a different person, even if they are the same spirit.
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Nov 24, 2018 23:00
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SHISHKABOB posted:Do you really think things would have gone better if they had gone a different way? Hieronymous Alloy posted:There are a lot of things that Tolkien does that a professional writer would never, ever do, from his metaphysical, non-concrete prose to most of the pacing to an offscreen, never directly confronted villain to the long song digressions etc. Any one of them can be singled out as flawed but they all end up contributing to the whole somehow. Fellowship seems so innocent and leisurely and then whoooops Or if they did do the first thing they went on and wrote more doorstoppers about elves 
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Nov 24, 2018 23:00
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sassassin posted:Gandalf died. He had to fight a fire demon for days and died alone on a mountain top. "Oh he got a power up" is a startling lack of empathy. Gandalf is immortal. He can't die in any meaningful way. His physical form is destroyed, so he is given a new form and a new purpose. That new purpose is basically to replace Saruman and to take up his authority, so it's no wonder he changed! However, as long as his form continued to exist in Middle Earth he couldn't take on this new mantle. If Gandalf hadn't been 'killed' by the Balrog it is likely that Rohan would have fallen to Saruman and that subsequently Gondor would have been destroyed.
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Nov 24, 2018 23:14
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sweet geek swag posted:Gandalf is immortal. He can't die in any meaningful way. His physical form is destroyed, so he is given a new form and a new purpose. That new purpose is basically to replace Saruman and to take up his authority, so it's no wonder he changed! However, as long as his form continued to exist in Middle Earth he couldn't take on this new mantle. If Gandalf hadn't been 'killed' by the Balrog it is likely that Rohan would have fallen to Saruman and that subsequently Gondor would have been destroyed. Even though Jesus dying for our sins saved us and gave us eternal life in heaven, it's still very bad and wrong that he was killed.
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Nov 24, 2018 23:16
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sweet geek swag posted:Gandalf is immortal. He can't die in any meaningful way. His physical form is destroyed, so he is given a new form and a new purpose. That new purpose is basically to replace Saruman and to take up his authority, so it's no wonder he changed! However, as long as his form continued to exist in Middle Earth he couldn't take on this new mantle. If Gandalf hadn't been 'killed' by the Balrog it is likely that Rohan would have fallen to Saruman and that subsequently Gondor would have been destroyed.
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Nov 24, 2018 23:25
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SHISHKABOB posted:Even though Jesus dying for our sins saved us and gave us eternal life in heaven, it's still very bad and wrong that he was killed. So, you're saying that Jesus's death was a mistake? Because that is what we are arguing here.
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Nov 24, 2018 23:28
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sweet geek swag posted:So, you're saying that Jesus's death was a mistake? Because that is what we are arguing here.
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Nov 24, 2018 23:31
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Nessus posted:If we extend this reasoning out a little, Gandalf was being very selfish, because the Rohirrim and the Gondolites would have been able to far more swiftly meet Iluvatar and experience the glory of the Gift of Men underneath Sauron's domination, and as such the moral thing to do would have been to facilitate his coming, or, if necessary, release your own blights and plagues. Similarly for Elves: what a quick and swift trip to the Halls of Mandos! Uh, okay? If you take the logic that applies to a being that has an existence that transcends Arda and apply it to beings whose existence is bound to Arda you get ethically troublesome arguments. It's comparing apples and oranges, but okay.
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Nov 24, 2018 23:33
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On one hand it is comforting to think that whatever will be will be, it's all God's plan etc. but on the other divorcing ourselves from personal responsibility leads to atrocity. To think that man cannot err is certainly not the overall message of Tolkien's stories, or his faith. Gandalf chooses Moria out of ignorance of what awaited him. Gimli knew better, but was ignored. The classic 'leap of faith' rarely ends with the leaper falling into the depths of the mountain, coiled in a whip of flame.
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Nov 24, 2018 23:37
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Bombadil saving them isn’t dues ex Machina as it carefully follows the logic of the world.
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Nov 24, 2018 23:37
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Nessus posted:The argument is that just because good things came subsequent to, and in part because of, a bad thing, that does not mean the bad thing becomes good. It becomes instead a bad thing that had good consequences. Okay, I can accept that. The Balrog killing Gandalf is indeed evil. But the consequences of that action were not. The point that going into Moria was not a mistake stands though.
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Nov 24, 2018 23:40
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sassassin posted:Tolkien also compares her physically to a man often enough to do some gender study if that's your area of interest. Personally though that's not my thing, and even Eowyn's story works better as a tale of noble obligation vs. the freedoms of lesser men, rather than a straight "girls can fight too" gender struggle. It amuses me that her names basically translate as "Butch" and "Blondie". Someone tell Amazon; I'm sure they can knock together a Mallorn Is The New Black series.
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Nov 24, 2018 23:41
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sweet geek swag posted:Okay, I can accept that. The Balrog killing Gandalf is indeed evil. But the consequences of that action were not. The point that going into Moria was not a mistake stands though.
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Nov 24, 2018 23:48
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