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Nov 25, 2018 23:37
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Cerebral Bore posted:What is it with the hardcore centrist fanboy brigade members constantly outing themselves as defenders of literal loving sweatshops? Well this brings us back to the topic, American politics. The backbone of the modern American economy has been built on sweatshops, the stagnation of real wages has only been tenable because our consumer goods are so cheap thanks to sweatshops. The United States is a settler-colonial state for a number of reasons but it's not hyperbole to say that the modern US economy is only really possible with the deeply exploited labor of the global poor, and in that sense our political establishment has a vested interest in maintaining the existence of a global poor. The fact that nobody in mainstream American politics, including Bernie, is willing to talk about this stuff as plainly as I just stated it is deeply saddening.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:38
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Elephant Ambush posted:His argument is also either/or in terms of "sweatshop capitalism is the only way living conditions could have ever improved" which is obviously wrong and btw I really don't understand how you haven't banned him yet for being an obvious bad faith liar. I know you think it's useful for people to see counter arguments to his trash posts but there are plenty of other trash posters who aren't arguing in bad faith we could reply to. he'd just come back if he were banned (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 25, 2018 23:38
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Cerebral Bore posted:What is it with the hardcore centrist fanboy brigade members constantly outing themselves as defenders of literal loving sweatshops? Sweatshops reduced poverty, poverty bad, therefore, sweatshops good! And if something is good, it clearly must the best possible way to accomplish anything. There's no way we could have reduced poverty without sweatshops, otherwise we wouldn't live in this, the best possible of all worlds! Words can't express how loving gross someone like Fulchrum is, full of bile and spite for everyone an inch to the left of him because he thinks they're the reason for all the ills in the world, while lacking all empathy for anyone actually suffering because all the facts and figures agree that net suffering is down, so what are you complaining about, peasant? You would prefer LESS gruel, that's what you're saying? I'm thankful for the amount of gruel I get! E: VVV Maybe we "rehash the same poo poo constantly" because some posters can't help but unload nuclear hot takes about how the status quo is amazing and deserved to be challenged instead of just existing in an echo chamber. WampaLord fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 23:39
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Man, it's almost like this thread is completely incapable of discussing the actual events in us politics and would rather constantly rehash the same arguments constantly Like, I feel like we probably shouldn't just be moving on from all of the poo poo going on at the Mexican border for another round of the same old poo poo
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Nov 25, 2018 23:39
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Squalid posted:I find this answer a bit hard to interpret as many of the countries criticized for sweatshop labor like China and Vietnam are already socialist. I mean like what does this mean in practice? I admit I'm a bit skeptical of the idea that if we give ownership of the means of production to Pennsylvania steelworkers they are going immediately seek to transfer billions of their new found wealth to the Chinese. Just giving people stuff doesn't necessarily improve conditions anyway if local elites can steal it. We want create domestic industry and build human capital, and that's hard. Now see this is an actually good question, and to the first part I would say that the problem with China (I won't speak to Vietnam because I'm not very familiar with post-unification Vietnamese history) is a lack of real democratic control and social freedom. China has in fact improved material conditions, but at great, great cost. They're not exactly a good role model for socialism. To the second part, that is a problem I don't actually have an answer to, but that doesn't mean there isn't a good answer. Elephant Ambush posted:His argument is also either/or in terms of "sweatshop capitalism is the only way living conditions could have ever improved" which is obviously wrong and btw I really don't understand how you haven't banned him yet for being an obvious bad faith liar. I know you think it's useful for people to see counter arguments to his trash posts but there are plenty of other trash posters who aren't arguing in bad faith we could reply to. Fulchrum has been banned and he is really terrible and I have no doubt he will be banned again. He must be a glutton for punishment with the way he posts here tho lol.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:40
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean yes, Mao was pretty bad, but the question is why Mao was able to come to power, which brings us back to Japan's invasion of China, the partitioning of China under the imperial powers, the Opium Wars, etc. He didn't just magically plop down one day and declare the PRC from nothing. agreed but the Qing could have pulled a Meiji Restoration and embraced advances they probably could have ended up like Japan. instead all those advances happend only after the country was getting raped by the west/japan. i am mostly arguing in historical context so we are probably talking past each other.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:41
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The Glumslinger posted:Man, it's almost like this thread is completely incapable of discussing the actual events in us politics and would rather constantly rehash the same arguments constantly or the fact that Ukraine and Russia are probably about to go to war
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Nov 25, 2018 23:42
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The Glumslinger posted:Man, it's almost like this thread is completely incapable of discussing the actual events in us politics and would rather constantly rehash the same arguments constantly It's a Sunday afternoon and there doesn't appear to be any more news other than "they fired tear gas at a civilian crowd." What more should we say? "That's quite terrible, and extremely on brand for the Trump Administration." The Russians attacking Ukraine and trying to blame the US is actually more discussion worthy imo because there's more to say about that. Dapper_Swindler posted:agreed but the Qing could have pulled a Meiji Restoration and embraced advances they probably could have ended up like Japan. instead all those advances happend only after the country was getting raped by the west/japan. i am mostly arguing in historical context so we are probably talking past each other. Given the relative size difference and comparative level of interest by foreign empires in China versus Japan in the same period I don't think it's this simple sadly.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:43
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The Glumslinger posted:Man, it's almost like this thread is completely incapable of discussing the actual events in us politics and would rather constantly rehash the same arguments constantly It’s overwhelmingly bleak and the mods rightly don’t like open calls for violence, so idk what else to say about that poo poo, especially when no one is dumb enough to try to defend what is happening.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:44
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Dapper_Swindler posted:agreed but the Qing could have pulled a Meiji Restoration and embraced advances they probably could have ended up like Japan. instead all those advances happend only after the country was getting raped by the west/japan. i am mostly arguing in historical context so we are probably talking past each other. rip hong xiuquan
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Nov 25, 2018 23:44
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean, socialism? Like I know that's considered this crazy ridiculous notion but we're also all going to die to global warming fairly soon so smugly declaring that nothing except for mediocre incrementalism is the path forward is almost comical. I knew it, I loving knew it. Your response is just to throw a meaningless buzzword at the problem and then smugly act like you solved it. And you actually think that makes you a good person, and not just a self satisfied rear end in a top hat. China is its own country. I didn't think I would have to explain that, and yet, here we are. It is under the rule of the leader Xi Jingping, and will be til he dies in about 30 years. And spoilers, his successor isn't going to be open to socialism either. If you try to just give money directly to the Chinese government and then hope really hard that that will alleviate poverty, its just going to go to the pockets of the CCP leaders, and the people falling into even deeper poverty, cause they don't have a job anymore. Any solution you propose has to actually be compatible with the contemporary system in place, otherwise its just utterly meaningless babbling. Lightning Knight posted:Dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki wasn't necessary to extract an unconditional surrender from Japan, which we needed to do. I do not see how these are inconsistent positions. We also didn't need to supply Japan oil when they were invading China. The options for extracting an unconditional surrender from Japan were (a) the bombs, and (b) killing more than one hundred and fifty times that many (conscripted) Japanese civilians, as well as 4 million more japanese soldiers and 6 million Allied soldiers, in Operation Downfall. A full half of Japans living population was going to die if they didn't drop the bombs, alongside 6 times as many Americans, British and French soldiers who died in the rest of the war combined. And once again, no, you don't get to make up a third option and say its totally better. Kobayashi posted:Nice casual racism. Read the red text of the person I am responding to. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 25, 2018 23:46
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Lightning Knight posted:It's a Sunday afternoon and there doesn't appear to be any more news other than "they fired tear gas at a civilian crowd." What more should we say? "That's quite terrible, and extremely on brand for the Trump Administration." https://twitter.com/samriegel/status/1066820402586935296
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Nov 25, 2018 23:47
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exploded mummy posted:or the fact that Ukraine and Russia are probably about to go to war There are actually other threads for that though.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:48
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The United States is also its own country and we have the agency to do something like, say, no longer accepting trade from countries that decline to agree to bilateral agreements to increase and uphold labor and environmental standards to parity levels. Japan didn't surrender because of the bombs, they surrendered because the Soviet Union entered the Pacific and ended any chance of a mediated peace. The bombs were a demonstration to the Soviets, and fearmongering about Downfall won't change that. We were going to get an unconditional surrender from Japan, nukes or no nukes.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:48
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Squalid posted:I find this answer a bit hard to interpret as many of the countries criticized for sweatshop labor like China and Vietnam are already socialist. they're not socialist then
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Nov 25, 2018 23:49
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Fulchrum posted:We JUST had a loving 12 page derail about how America dropping the atomic bomb on Japan was the worst thing evar (loving tankie Weebs), and America should have just allowed Japan to hold onto its conquered areas of China and Korea rather than fight. Now you come out with poo poo that America didn't do enough to stop them? Seriously? That's not what was said at all, you're an intellectually-dishonest racist. Condiv posted:he'd just come back if he were banned Taxing awful people with money seems like it's in line with this thread's beliefs.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:49
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Oh and even if living conditions are somewhat better for impoverished parts of Asia it's still not worth all the lives lost to the poor working conditions and all the suicides and all the pollution those plants dump into the local environments and all the other horrible injustices like workplace rape. But bad faith arguers would say what centrist liberals say which is "better things aren't possible and incrementalism is the only thing we have". lol
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Nov 25, 2018 23:49
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The entire Trump Administration, as the Bush Administration before them and arguably every American government since at least World War II, should be tried as war criminals. This is monstrous, but sadly unsurprising. I'm almost glad it was tear gas instead of live ammunition, there could've been a lot more bodies.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:50
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1066793504804913152 https://twitter.com/TrumpsAlert/status/1066486651273138176
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Nov 25, 2018 23:51
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If he comes back after banning then ban him again. Make money for the site. If that's too much work just chain probate him once a month or something. Or give him the 11 year probation lol. Sorry for the derail but he really isn't necessary or needed here. I'll shut up now. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 25, 2018 23:51
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It's pretty interesting that literally every one of Fulchrum's arguments relies on a blatant false dilemma, but I guess it's nice that he's at least consistent about something.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:52
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The Glumslinger posted:Man, it's almost like this thread is completely incapable of discussing the actual events in us politics and would rather constantly rehash the same arguments constantly discuss stuff if you want to discuss it. i dunno why you guys feel entitled to the thread discussing nothing but what you feel is important or worthy, but it's p obnoxious. discuss the russia stuff and the tijuana stuff and if other posters feel like discussing it they'll join in. stop whining that the topic you'd like to discuss isn't the only thing being discussed at the moment. there's been a number of days where i've seen 2-3 topics being discussed at once. why can't you deal with stuff like that?
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Nov 25, 2018 23:53
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So did Fox do a piece on the Clinton Foundation this afternoon or something because what the gently caress is he talking about?
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Nov 25, 2018 23:53
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Squalid posted:I find this answer a bit hard to interpret as many of the countries criticized for sweatshop labor like China and Vietnam are already socialist. I mean like what does this mean in practice? I admit I'm a bit skeptical of the idea that if we give ownership of the means of production to Pennsylvania steelworkers they are going immediately seek to transfer billions of their new found wealth to the Chinese. Just giving people stuff doesn't necessarily improve conditions anyway if local elites can steal it. We want create domestic industry and build human capital, and that's hard. Profit sharing with taxes. There is still a state under socialism. "Local elites" how exactly do you think there would be local elites if there are no bosses (that you don't vote for) or landlords? If the political system is changed to be more democratic so that power isn't vested in individuals but rather as groups? I think the problem here is just you literally can't imagine anything other than the world as it exists today.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:55
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So did Fox do a piece on the Clinton Foundation this afternoon or something because what the gently caress is he talking about? i think there was a news piece about clinton foundation donations dropping precipitously recently, and it may just have reached trump that said, i really didn't read past the headline of that piece, cause who cares?
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Nov 25, 2018 23:55
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Lightning Knight posted:Now see this is an actually good question, and to the first part I would say that the problem with China (I won't speak to Vietnam because I'm not very familiar with post-unification Vietnamese history) is a lack of real democratic control and social freedom. China has in fact improved material conditions, but at great, great cost. They're not exactly a good role model for socialism. These questions are not easily answered which is why we haven't answered them. I think a new Marshal Plan for the developing world would be a great policy. Building up the wealth and industrial capacity of the world is good for America and America's workers. It would be money well spent. Unfortunately I believe many of the people itt decrying foreign sweatshops would hate such a plan. Why should we build up industry abroad when American workers can barely compete as it is? They might say. Hard to argue with that. Obviously there are right and wrong ways to engage in trade internationally. Not all are equally good. WE can't turn our back on the world though, its the worst option. The reality is though that the United States government can't dictate to Vietnam how to run their economy. They kinda fought a war to prove that! That doesn't mean we can't engage with them, even if we can't control all the inevitable fallout. Ultimately our power is limited, and we must do the best we can with the tools available.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:56
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RUSSIA AND UKRAINE ARE ABOUT TO GO TO WAR YOU FUCKFACE
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Nov 25, 2018 23:56
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Ardennes posted:There are actually other threads for that though. everyone knows that it's going to be germane to this thread in a matter of hours trump can't help himself
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Nov 25, 2018 23:58
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Squalid posted:These questions are not easily answered which is why we haven't answered them. I think a new Marshal Plan for the developing world would be a great policy. Building up the wealth and industrial capacity of the world is good for America and America's workers. It would be money well spent. Unfortunately I believe many of the people itt decrying foreign sweatshops would hate such a plan. Why should we build up industry abroad when American workers can barely compete as it is? They might say. Hard to argue with that. Again you literally can't imagine wealth being shared in any meaningful way. Or imagine the concept of worker solidarity at all.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:58
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Squalid posted:These questions are not easily answered which is why we haven't answered them. I think a new Marshal Plan for the developing world would be a great policy. Building up the wealth and industrial capacity of the world is good for America and America's workers. That already exists, it's called OBOR and the west is melting down over it.
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Nov 25, 2018 23:59
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Sharing from the eur thread but.... https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1066790521891418113?s=19
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Nov 25, 2018 23:59
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Squalid posted:These questions are not easily answered which is why we haven't answered them. I think a new Marshal Plan for the developing world would be a great policy. Building up the wealth and industrial capacity of the world is good for America and America's workers. It would be money well spent. Unfortunately I believe many of the people itt decrying foreign sweatshops would hate such a plan. Why should we build up industry abroad when American workers can barely compete as it is? They might say. Hard to argue with that. I mean personally, I think leftism has to be internationalist to succeed, and also that it doesn't really make sense to be in a pissing match over who gets to have the factories. Mark Blyth said something to the effect of, about 10% of the world's population could produce super abundance for the rest, we have a political problem, not a problem of resources. We have the ability to build a world without war, hunger, poverty, or homelessness, and the United States is currently the global hegemonic power and most of us live here so it's up to us to at least attempt to steer that power in a positive direction. Sanguinia posted:RUSSIA AND UKRAINE ARE ABOUT TO GO TO WAR YOU FUCKFACE The fact that the Russians are outright blaming the US for their actions against Ukraine and he hasn't said a thing is deeply damning lol. He doesn't even have a justification for the tear gas attacks, you'd think he'd be stroking his dick at the thought. ^ this seems very bad.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:00
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hi there this is a thread about uspolitics it is not a thread where you whinge about other posters to the point where you need to be probated; if you find somebody's post so irksome put them on ignore thanks and post better
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Nov 26, 2018 00:04
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Condiv posted:i think there was a news piece about clinton foundation donations dropping precipitously recently, and it may just have reached trump Recently? Like in response to Hillary's "give the European far-right what they want"? Because I can see people viewing that as a betrayal and declining to give them money.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:04
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Lightning Knight posted:
Which they did _because of the bombs_. Saying the fact that the Soviet Union knew that the Japanese strategic position was hopeless had nothing to do with the developments that made their position hopeless is like saying ‘he didn’t die from being shot, it was blood loss’. There is really no need to wrap yourself up in revisionist knots to try to explain how somehow the invention and deployment of nuclear weapons made no difference to anything.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:06
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Office Pig posted:https://twitter.com/Liveuamap/status/1066826949060960257 I am reminded of the Falkland War, except stupider. I eagerly await Trump's Monday morning quarterbacking on this tho.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:06
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Cindy Hyde-Smith is trying so hard for it but I don't think she has the chops to lose to Mike Espy: https://twitter.com/VaughnHillyard/status/1066773937160364032 https://twitter.com/VaughnHillyard/status/1066817545653637120 https://twitter.com/RRHElections/status/1066783767145193472 Martha Coakley (R-MS) Ague Proof fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Nov 26, 2018 |
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Nov 26, 2018 00:06
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Phi230 posted:Profit sharing with taxes. There is still a state under socialism. "Local elites" how exactly do you think there would be local elites if there are no bosses (that you don't vote for) or landlords? If the political system is changed to be more democratic so that power isn't vested in individuals but rather as groups? I want to imagine solving problems on earth in 2018, and with stuff we can do between today and maybe 2020. Not in some fantasy world where Donald Trump doesn't exist and I already live in the United Socialist States of America. If We elect Bernie in 2020 how would you propose he tackle poverty in Bangladesh? Do you expect him to reinvade Vietnam and install another Democratic Socialist government?
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Nov 26, 2018 00:06
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I wouldn’t be shocked if Trump just literally says nothing about Russia/Ukraine.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:07
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