|
GoluboiOgon posted:absolutely. I think this position is strategically insane, but it is both morally and logically self-consistent. do you think this would lead to either the GOP agreeing to abolish CBP and ICE, or Democratic control of Congress and the Presidency in 2020? Or, heck, would have led to legislative control in 2018 from which we could abolish the filibuster and bully our big dumb baby president into signing? edit: ditto to Chomskyan, since apparently he is also on this boat
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 01:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 05:33 |
|
|
axeil posted:AOC needs to primary Schumer, if only to stop us all screaming about how much he sucks. This except unironically
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 01:59
|
|
|
Here's a hot loving take: I don't care if the 1.6 billion goes to a wall, or fences, or goddamn vuvuzelas for deterrence, immigration isn't even in the top 20 problems we are facing right now and I'd rather that money go to one of those
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:00
|
|
|
Obama played the immigration tough guy his entire two terms and it resulted in no benefits whatsoever while leaving the Dreamers at the mercy of racist sociopaths. He pissed off immigrant groups and torpedoed their support and every conservative that cared about "illegal immigrants" went for Trump as usual. Even if you believe in centrist compromising and you need to make tough choices there is no political gain in being tough on immigration or giving credibility to the Republican platform that the foreign hoards are the root of our problems.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:00
|
|
|
The Glumslinger posted:I'm gonna be honest, I was kinda of this opinion, but I'm not really so sure anymore. Yeah, this particular issue of an extremely specified fence spending isn't a huge deal, it does matter as a symbolic issue of the hosed up policy on our borders that has been the Republican creed for ages. Like, most of the time, people just yelling and screaming in this thread feels like white noise, but I feel like there are some persuasive arguments. At minimum, we should be trying to set poo poo up for a real showdown after Dems control the House and we can start trying to tackle real issues like "What the gently caress do we do with ICE?" and "What does a sane loving immigration policy look like?". I think an 11 month spending bill kicks a lot of these issues too far out into the future, and just continuing this funding since it was previously agreed to isn't a political necessity. Republicans lost on their immigration message, why are we still looking at agreements that we made before the public weighed in on the issue and treating them like they are solid? Then people will have to take the time making these persuasive arguments. Also maybe they should take some time to really think about what it is they are proposing and what the consequences of that proposal would be. You know actually flesh out a policy rather than just saying, "hey this sounds good, let's push this extremely unpopular idea that we just pulled out of our rear end, that just so happens to be the very idea that the Republicans have been promoting because their research shows that it won't play well with voters, and lets do it by doing this thing that has historically not played well for the party that did it." yeah that's a brilliant move. It's taken since the 90s at this point get public buy in on universal healthcare, we're still trying to get them to buy into the idea that racism is bad and that maybe we should treat LGBT people like human beings, oh and on top of that we have to find someway to stop the coming climate change apocalypse which includes convincing people that it's actual loving thing. But sure let's just forget all of that so we can piss and moan about a tiny line item in the budget that the vast majority of the public not only don't oppose but actually support. Great plan. Condiv posted:skex, your idea of what is and isn't extreme is warped and worthless. you thought american labor regulations were "full socialism now!" You don't have the slightest clue what I think because you refuse to actually read what I say and instead latch onto a strawman construct of the evil rich white privileged centrist that you want me to be because it supports your preferred narrative. My argument isn't that leftist ideas are bad or wrong but rather that getting them implemented is not as simple or easy as you seem to believe it is. This isn't a "let's philosophize about the ideal society thread" this is a discuss US politics thread. Which means that not we're talking about theoretical ideological ideas we're talking about the nitty gritty of actually getting sufficient people to buy into to better ideas in order to implement them and discussing the various machinations of the politicians, media and citizens of this nation in order to do so. I'd be more than happy to have such a theoretical discussion and I think I suspect that you'd find that my personal beliefs are not far from your own. But that's not the purpose of this thread. Skex fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Nov 28, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:01
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:What ARE you calling dems to do? I would like for the policy to move in the direction of the coalition that won the election, i. e. not arguing from the Republican side of the 50 yard line. If that is vague is fine but the winning coalition needs to have the policy move in their direction.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:01
|
|
|
I'd rather they pass a stimulus where every American gets 3 dollars and some change then spend it on border poo poo
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:02
|
|
|
Lemming posted:I'm not criticizing his actions with regard to procedure around a bill when I'm criticizing his rhetoric. I'm criticizing his rhetoric. His rhetoric is bad. Democrats just won in the biggest wave in a generation and the best he can muster up is "excuse me, sir, mr. president, sir, while I respect you and your position very much, we already agreed to only 1.6 billion dollars in border security, sir." That's bad. Republicans control the house, senate and presidency right now in this term that is still happening. He can puff up his chest and filibuster and shut down the government and ultimately they can end the filibuster and pass the 5 billion dollar version without him at all. He's got a threat, not infinite power, getting a non-increase while controlling zero branches of government is big man good politics success. He does your thing, says 'gently caress republicans, I'm rewriting the budget, pass this!" ends in them not passing it, overruling his filibuster and 5 billion dollars going to a border wall.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:03
|
|
|
Ate My Balls Redux posted:Here's a hot loving take: I don't care if the 1.6 billion goes to a wall, or fences, or goddamn vuvuzelas for deterrence, immigration isn't even in the top 20 problems we are facing right now and I'd rather that money go to one of those Yes, the real battle we should be fighting is making the farce that is the "immigration issue" be exposed for the racist fascist sham that most of society based on voting seems to believe it is. gently caress the chuds. You will never win the chuds. They are broken sad brains who don't even think properly.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:03
|
|
|
The Democrats should be treating any money to "border defense" like if the Republicans wanted to build a ladder to heaven. It's a stupid waste of money with no upsides and a ton of reasons not to. Coming to the table with an already compromised position (literally a penny for it is a compromise) is weak as hell, especially after a wave that just rejected the Republicans last two years of insanity.Owlofcreamcheese posted:Republicans control the house, senate and presidency right now in this term that is still happening. He can puff up his chest and filibuster and shut down the government and ultimately they can end the filibuster and pass the 5 billion dollar version without him at all. He's got a threat, not infinite power, getting a non-increase while controlling zero branches of government is big man good politics success. If it's just that easy to get their $5 billion wall all by themselves why do they need to bargain and why haven't they done it yet?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:04
|
|
|
axeil posted:AOC needs to primary Schumer, if only to stop us all screaming about how much he sucks. The good dems in the senate need to take care of this. AOC can't save us for a while.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:04
|
|
|
Skex posted:You don't have the slightest clue what I think i do. you made it quite clear a few days ago. Radish posted:Obama played the immigration tough guy his entire two terms and it resulted in no benefits whatsoever while leaving the Dreamers at the mercy of racist sociopaths. He pissed off immigrant groups and torpedoed their support and every conservative that cared about "illegal immigrants" went for Trump as usual. Even if you believe in centrist compromising and you need to make tough choices there is no political gain in being tough on immigration or giving credibility to the Republican platform that the foreign hoards are the root of our problems. i mean, this is all that really needs to be said isn't it? the strategic option of being spineless haven't won us a ton of votes and support in the past, so i'm not sure why people think continuing that failed strategy is a good idea? how about trying something bold for once?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:05
|
|
|
mcmagic posted:I would like for the policy to move in the direction of the coalition that won the election, i. e. not arguing from the Republican side of the 50 yard line. If that is vague is fine but the winning coalition needs to have the policy move in their direction. Okay so like, what words do you feel schumer says that makes the senate vote for that? Or the president to sign that? He has words he can say that potentially make 'what you voted on before is what happens, not this 5 billion dollar thing" happen, and freeze out an increase.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:05
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:Okay so like, what words do you feel schumer says that makes the senate vote for that? Or the president to sign that? I don't give a poo poo what he says. I care what he does.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:07
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/pwnallthethings/status/1067586125135376384
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:09
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:Republicans control the house, senate and presidency right now in this term that is still happening. He can puff up his chest and filibuster and shut down the government and ultimately they can end the filibuster and pass the 5 billion dollar version without him at all. He's got a threat, not infinite power, getting a non-increase while controlling zero branches of government is big man good politics success. uh, do you honestly think the republicans aren't going to put $5b towards a border wall if chuck schumer is nice to them? how can you possibly be that naive lets say you're right and nothing schumer says or does will stop republicans from getting 1.6B at minimum. even under those circumstances there's absolutely no reason for him to say "we'll give you 1.6B". there's no reason for him to give in to republicans. being nice to them has not once gotten us anything, so why should he be sucking up to them now when not sucking up to them will get the exact same response from republicans and embolden his base and show immigrants that he is willing to at least pay lip service to them?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:09
|
|
|
mcmagic posted:I don't give a poo poo what he says. I care what he does. Is he gonna do secret ninja hand motions to get the senate to vote for some bill he wrote? Like write me a fanfiction, if you were chuck schumer what series of steps would you take that result in you getting a fully rewritten bill. Instead of just blocking changes to the already voted for bill.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:11
|
|
|
Skex posted:Then people will have to take the time making these persuasive arguments. Also maybe they should take some time to really think about what it is they are proposing and what the consequences of that proposal would be. You know actually flesh out a policy rather than just saying, "hey this sounds good, let's push this extremely unpopular idea that we just pulled out of our rear end, that just so happens to be the very idea that the Republicans have been promoting because their research shows that it won't play well with voters, and lets do it by doing this thing that has historically not played well for the party that did it." yeah that's a brilliant move. This is what we want our elected Democratic officials to do and produce a result that isn't "the status quo is great" so when they say "the status quo is great" we should be angry and hold them accountable for not doing a better job. Owlofcreamcheese posted:Republicans control the house, senate and presidency right now in this term that is still happening. He can puff up his chest and filibuster and shut down the government and ultimately they can end the filibuster and pass the 5 billion dollar version without him at all. He's got a threat, not infinite power, getting a non-increase while controlling zero branches of government is big man good politics success. I don't think you understand what the word "rhetoric" means. Words make a difference even if they're not backed up by action concurrent with saying the words. They affect how people feel and think and act. Democrats need to be fired up to push for things to improve and to fight Republicans. Nobody can get excited around a rallying cry of "keep the status quo! It sucks rear end but that's all I'm gonna fight for!"
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:11
|
|
|
Condiv posted:i do. you made it quite clear a few days ago. Compromising with Republicans to help their goals is worst than doing nothing since when their schemes inevitably go to poo poo they can point fingers and say "look these horrible pictures are from the Democrat's administration" and not be lying. You get no credit for working with them and all of the blood on your hands. It's one thing if you are getting something out of the deal, but when it's something like this where you are only enacting SOME of their agenda in order to appear bipartisan there is no benefit other than the accolades of useless DC wonks.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:11
|
|
|
So when the hell are the votes for Mississippi going to come in?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:12
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:Republicans control the house, senate and presidency right now in this term that is still happening. He can puff up his chest and filibuster and shut down the government and ultimately they can end the filibuster and pass the 5 billion dollar version without him at all. He's got a threat, not infinite power, getting a non-increase while controlling zero branches of government is big man good politics success. Republicans can't get enough votes in the house OR the senate to pass their budget on their own even without a threat of filibuster.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:13
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:Republicans control the house, senate and presidency right now in this term that is still happening. He can puff up his chest and filibuster and shut down the government and ultimately they can end the filibuster and pass the 5 billion dollar version without him at all. He's got a threat, not infinite power, getting a non-increase while controlling zero branches of government is big man good politics success. I'm not sure I agree either with the GOP definitely being able to pass the 5bil (or 25bil, lol) plan, yet, or with Turtle being willing to blow up the filibuster right before the Democrats become able to start sending bills to die in the Senate again - 51 votes to pass something is a threshold that makes him nervous, not to mention that I wouldn't bet my life savings that the screaming moron caucus doesn't revolt to keep the filibuster in place. It's most useful to the people who want government to do nothing, after all! I think the most likely outcome if Schumer pushes the big red button is in fact a shutdown until one side caves. The question then becomes whether Schumer thinks the shutdown narrative will benefit the Dems (and, uh, whether he is correct to think so), whether he thinks he can keep his caucus in line, and whether the prospect of having to negotiate with Majority Leader Pelosi upsets the GOP enough that they buckle and give Schumer whatever it is he's demanding to get something passed this session. I think "the Democrats shut down the government to stop the fence money" is a somewhat dangerous narrative, but I may be convinceable. I think "the Democrats shut down the government because they want to abolish CBP" is substantially more dangerous, especially without an abolish/reform legislative package on the table in the House.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:13
|
|
|
there is some news breaking apart from schumer https://twitter.com/PostRoz/status/1067582520810721280 quote:Rudolph W. Giuliani, an attorney for Trump, said the president does not recall ever speaking to either Stone or Corsi about WikiLeaks. He said the president’s legal team obtained a copy of the Corsi document earlier this month and lodged a complaint with the Justice Department about the inclusion of Trump’s name in the draft filing. The episode delayed the delivery of Trump’s written responses to questions posed by the special counsel.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:13
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:Is he gonna do secret ninja hand motions to get the senate to vote for some bill he wrote? Like write me a fanfiction, if you were chuck schumer what series of steps would you take that result in you getting a fully rewritten bill. Instead of just blocking changes to the already voted for bill. You know how people are fired up about AOC? How she was able to get a lot of support for things she is passionate about, fire up our base, and give people a reason to be excited about a Democrat? Do you also know she currently has no power to do anything at all, because she literally hasn't been sworn in yet? This is because rhetoric matters, and she's good at it. That is a big part of why she is good. Schumer sucks at it and is a big part of why he is bad.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:13
|
|
|
Radish posted:Compromising with Republicans is worst than doing nothing since when their schemes inevitably go to poo poo they can point fingers and say "look these horrible pictures are from the Democrat's administration" and not be lying. You get no credit for working with them and all of the blood on your hands. Pretend I put handclap emojis between each word here. For real though, this is the type of situation where no compromise should be possible.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:14
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:on the one hand it's a fairly legitimate colloquial term for a thorough deletion process, on the other hand I will literally never assume Donald Trump knows a fact about anything He also thinks we have literally invisible-to-the-naked-eye fighter jets.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:16
|
|
|
PhazonLink posted:what are these rallies for other than ego the midterms are over. They used to charge a nickel to see Jesse James’ corpse. People have a fascination with rotting crooks.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:17
|
|
|
Lemming posted:You know how people are fired up about AOC? How she was able to get a lot of support for things she is passionate about, fire up our base, and give people a reason to be excited about a Democrat? Do you also know she currently has no power to do anything at all, because she literally hasn't been sworn in yet? This is because rhetoric matters, and she's good at it. That is a big part of why she is good. Schumer sucks at it and is a big part of why he is bad. I've been mostly avoiding the rhetoric side because everybody agreeing that Schumer is bad at messaging is boring, although workshopping better messages is more interesting.  A really good message also shifts the calculus towards the Big Red Button, b3cause if you can position yourself as taking a stand for something good and popular you miiiiight be able to turn the blame for a shutdown into a positive / shift the blame onto the GOP.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:18
|
|
|
Fart City posted:They used to charge a nickel to see Jesse James’ corpse. Its totally to keep Trump going. Look at how unhinged his Twitter and press poo poo is and imagine how much worse it'd be without that constant reinforcement from his CHUD brigade
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:19
|
|
|
Lemming posted:You know how people are fired up about AOC? How she was able to get a lot of support for things she is passionate about, fire up our base, and give people a reason to be excited about a Democrat? Do you also know she currently has no power to do anything at all, because she literally hasn't been sworn in yet? This is because rhetoric matters, and she's good at it. That is a big part of why she is good. Schumer sucks at it and is a big part of why he is bad. It's not just rhetoric. She's actually doing things that show that she understands the moment we're in. Schumer just doesn't. Getting past the day to day failures on little tactical stuff, that is, at it's heart the real issue with congressional Dem leadership in both the house and in the senate. They just clearly don't understand the moment they are in and what will be necessary to fight against fascism and authoritarianism and how to drive a stake in it's heart once they get back into power. Do these people seem like they will be capable of eliminating the filibuster in 2021? Packing the court? Jamming through a new voting rights act or statehood for DC and PR? Those things aren't even in the universe of their imagination.... They still approach politics like it's 1982.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:20
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:I've been mostly avoiding the rhetoric side because everybody agreeing that Schumer is bad at messaging is boring, although workshopping better messages is more interesting. Well I think the past few pages have proven that you can't even get the milk drinkers to agree with that lol
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:20
|
|
|
Condiv posted:uh, do you honestly think the republicans aren't going to put $5b towards a border wall if chuck schumer is nice to them? how can you possibly be that naive Do you need to watch a video on how voting works or how bills get passed? Him doing ANYTHING that flips republican senators to vote on a newly written democratic budget bill and getting that signed by donald trump is ludicrous. democrats can absolutely force republicans hands to pick between voting as they have already voted vs a shutdown. chuck schumer writing a bill and having donald trump sign it is not a thing on the table no matter how many spines he has or how leftist he is or whatever. passing the bill as written now and not including donald trump's new thing is a thing that can happen.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:20
|
|
|
VH4Ever posted:Just for the record, I wasn't taking the tack the person you responded to here did. I know the state is very scenic and those pictures are cool. I've just been saying that it would be nice if we blend all these empty states together to make things a bit more fair in the Senate, like say, Wyodakodahotana? California is huge and if you cut out the places where most of its population lives, it'll just look like a chunk of swiss cheese. If you're going to make Hicklandia, it's going to be way bigger than the Great Plains and everything north of Colorado. Though I'm of the opinion that the Tenth Amendment needs to be shot in the loving head and states just become administrative zones and make every county an electoral precinct for the House.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:21
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:I've been mostly avoiding the rhetoric side because everybody agreeing that Schumer is bad at messaging is boring, although workshopping better messages is more interesting. Part of the reason the Republicans are so loving good at messaging is because they take actual stands and stick to them, even when they are inevitably stupid or awful. People get excited when they think politicians care about what they want and are going to work towards it. This poo poo where every time the Dems get a shred of power and they immediately tell "let's compromise, Republicans" is absolutely killing enthusiasm in the base. If the President were a more milquetoast Republican and not literally the shittiest president ever, there would have been no blue wave. Owlofcreamcheese posted:Do you need to watch a video on how voting works or how bills get passed? Him doing ANYTHING that flips republican senators to vote on a newly written democratic budget bill and getting that signed by donald trump is ludicrous. democrats can absolutely force republicans hands to pick between voting as they have already voted vs a shutdown. Jesus gently caress, the Dems need to forget the word and concept of "pragmatism" exists. Advocate for poo poo your base needs. FFS stop compromising with people that would never do it in the reverse scenario and stop thinking things aren't worth doing if they aren't a slam dunk Ate My Balls Redux fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Nov 28, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:22
|
|
|
Gonna quote the interesting part Person 1 is Stone, you can guess what Organization 1 is quote:a. On or about July 25, 2016, Person 1 sent an email to CORSI with the subject line, “Get to [the founder of Organization 1].” The body of the message read: “Get to [the founder of Organization 1] [a]t Ecuadorian Embassy in London and get the pending [Organization 1] emails . . . they deal with Foundation, allegedly.” On or about the same day, CORSI forwarded Person 1’s email to the overseas individual. I'm very interested to find out who the overseas individual is since it isn't Assange
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:22
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/jonfavs/status/1067588518229078019 LOL you guys arguing in this thread are to the right of even centrist Obama bros....
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:24
|
|
|
Can one of the restricted borders liberals who posts here explain this to me Why in your opinion, does a colonial nation which stole everything it has, have any moral right to police who enters and leaves it?
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:24
|
|
|
500 votes in. They should call the race as any votes counted later must be fraudulent.MSDOS KAPITAL posted:The fact that he only ever describes it as "acid wash" kinda gives the game away. Trump described it as 'bleaching' one time. He believes a DNA test can tell which country you were born in. Ague Proof fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Nov 28, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:26
|
|
|
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/27/us/elections/results-mississippi-senate-runoff-special-election.html Espy (D) is up 61 to 38! with less than 1% reporting
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 05:33 |
|
|
Chomskyan posted:Can one of the restricted borders liberals who posts here explain this to me I'm not one of those people, but it's a security issue at its base rather than a moral one. That being said, there is a lot more of a security risk by sea and by air than by land and we are pretty lackadaisical about those methods of transport
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2018 02:27
|
|