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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The strongest ground is that the bipartisan bill with the fence was in opposition to a much much much more evil bill that had passed the house that included such things as making being an illegal immigrant a felony. Somehow, I don't see how this makes the point that agreeing to such a bill is somehow NOT the incremental compromise with fascism progressives correctly state that it is. I mean, by your own definition, that's what it was. When you compromise with evil you allow evil to exist.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:35
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Ugh, why does Ari Melber even give Corsi air time? Seems like a waste. Not like Corsi is going to say anything truthful or relevant.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:35
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turns out judges don't grant your motions when you don't cite any law or include any evidence? https://twitter.com/bradheath/status/1067922485948162049 Retro42 posted:Ugh, why does Ari Melber even give Corsi air time? Seems like a waste. Not like Corsi is going to say anything truthful or relevant. his statements about his role in the conspiracy that he's gone out of his way to admit to and give us documentation about are appreciated
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Nov 29, 2018 00:35
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Chomskyan posted:lmao Goes well with only being in favor of jailing 32% the number of refugee children Trump wants to jail, or whatever Obama's ratio of imprisoned kids is to Trump's
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Nov 29, 2018 00:36
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Skex posted:That vote was from 12 years ago the political landscape and the electorate was completely different. There really was effectively no political left in the United States prior to the 2006 election. I remember the political landscape. The left we less powerful, but there were plenty of people decrying a border fence.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:36
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Again, as a Brit the whole idea of the lame duck session stuns me. You lose an election in the UK? You have to get the gently caress out of your office the moment the result is called so the winner can start picking curtains. None of this "let's see how much damage we can cause for our successor in the next two months" crap.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:37
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Corsi is now describing why being a birther is very reasonable. All in all, a good interview.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:37
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Payndz posted:Again, as a Brit the whole idea of the lame duck session stuns me. You lose an election in the UK? You have to get the gently caress out of your office the moment the result is called so the winner can start picking curtains. None of this "let's see how much damage we can cause for our successor in the next two months" crap. America has a stupid rear end government design and the older I get the more hilarious it is to see people sucking off "The Founding Fathers."
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Nov 29, 2018 00:39
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Skex posted:That vote was from 12 years ago the political landscape and the electorate was completely different. There really was effectively no political left in the United States prior to the 2006 election. sure sounds like a good reason to vote for the iraq war lol
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Nov 29, 2018 00:39
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Payndz posted:Again, as a Brit the whole idea of the lame duck session stuns me. You lose an election in the UK? You have to get the gently caress out of your office the moment the result is called so the winner can start picking curtains. None of this "let's see how much damage we can cause for our successor in the next two months" crap. Yeah, that part of our system is dumb but do you really want to have a "whose system is dumber" contest right now? Brexit is just as dumb as anything we have going on here right now.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:40
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Payndz posted:Again, as a Brit the whole idea of the lame duck session stuns me. You lose an election in the UK? You have to get the gently caress out of your office the moment the result is called so the winner can start picking curtains. None of this "let's see how much damage we can cause for our successor in the next two months" crap. The lame duck period used to be 4 months, we had to amend our constitution to reduce it to 2 months because FDR couldn't start dealing with the Depression until almost half a year after he was elected. Amending the constitution is also really hard. Our constitution was written back in the horse-and-buggy days when it took four months just to notify everyone they won and then have them travel to Washington. 4 months wasn't considered a problem because (1) the losers wouldn't be able to get a quorum together that soon after the election recess in the horse-and-buggy days and even if they could (2) well obviously only statesmen of high moral character will ever be elected so the government would never pass a "gently caress you I'm out" bill.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:42
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VH4Ever posted:Somehow, I don't see how this makes the point that agreeing to such a bill is somehow NOT the incremental compromise with fascism progressives correctly state that it is. I mean, by your own definition, that's what it was. When you compromise with evil you allow evil to exist. dems practically have a stranglehold on the house right now so they have to change the rules in order to not do anything progressive
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Nov 29, 2018 00:42
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The strongest ground is that the bipartisan bill with the fence was in opposition to a much much much more evil bill that had passed the house that included such things as making being an illegal immigrant a felony. Yeah, back when Democrats had no power to actually stop anything. Now that they're going to control the house they should tell them to go get hosed.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:43
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Lemming posted:Yeah, back when Democrats had no power to actually stop anything. Now that they're going to control the house they should tell them to go get hosed. how is this argument still going over 24 hours later. literally the same people are posting the same poo poo
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Nov 29, 2018 00:44
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:i like that you're defending building a wall to own the leftists! There is nothing specifically 'leftist" about buying into fox news framing and miss-narratives. Like you got some big stupid gotcha that obama voted for a compromise bill in 2006 like if you were elected you'd simply not vote on anything and let republicans write all legislature and tell yourself that made you a good person because you'd rather have immigration be a felony as long as you don't have to sign your name to anything but perfect legislature.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:44
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Lightning Knight posted:We should criticize Democrats for lovely votes they made in the past because those same Democrats are still in office. Every Democrat who voted Iraq should be shamed from office and replaced, for example. If you want people to change their minds on something, you have to be able to let them actually change. If they are going to be damned for a choice they made in the past, no matter how much their views and opinions have changed since then, what incentive do they have to change? You keep misunderstanding the relationship between Democratic politicians and the electorate, you are operating on the idea that the elected representatives are leaders who exist to inspire, inform and push the electorate in a particular direction. But the historical reality is that for the most part in the history of the United States, politicians follow the electorate. Sure there is some push pull going on as politicians try to sell their ideas and policies. But in general the big changes, the stuff actually moves the needle towards a more just world, that comes from the bottom up. Notice that all of these politicians who were wishy-washy or opposed to things like MFA 10 years ago are all at least paying lip service to the idea. I'm not telling you to not call them out when they do something bad, but I am saying that you need to consider the context of the time. At the time that bill passed the Republicans still held the house (cause it was 2006 election that the Democrats took it back and wouldn't be seated until 2007) and I don't recall the details of that particular bill so I'm not ready to castigate them without having some more context. Because it's not that unusual for the Democrats to do something bad in order to stop something significantly worse. I'm pretty sure that I was probably as pissed about that vote then as you are now. But that was then, this is now. The Democrats have gotten objectively better since then, not perfect but definitely better, more importantly the Republicans have become objectively worse and it's not like they weren't horrible before.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:46
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eke out posted:how is this argument still going over 24 hours later. literally the same people are posting the same poo poo Because not everyone agrees on the things at issue? Is it incomprehensible to you that people have a problem with what's going on?
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Nov 29, 2018 00:46
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VH4Ever posted:Yeah, that part of our system is dumb but do you really want to have a "whose system is dumber" contest right now? Brexit is just as dumb as anything we have going on here right now. That's not an inherent flaw of their system, that was the government stupidly putting a vote they couldn't afford to lose up to a referendum that they promised to follow in order to shut people up. There's nothing stopping the US government from passing a law to have a nonbinding national referendum on the UN or the Federal Reserve or whatever and then having it go the wrong way and then carrying it out anyway because everyone involved is too afraid of the repercussions to their personal political career. It's just that US leadership has never been quite that stupid. Obama came pretty close though, what with trying to force a universally hated corporate written trade deal on the country in an election year that oops turned partially into a referendum on that when a reality TV star campaigned on rejecting it.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:46
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More in Hakeem Jeffries is terrible: https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1067833222338412544
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Nov 29, 2018 00:47
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mcmagic posted:More in Hakeem Jeffries is terrible: Might makes right!
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Nov 29, 2018 00:48
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Skex posted:You keep misunderstanding the relationship between Democratic politicians and the electorate, you are operating on the idea that the elected representatives are leaders who exist to inspire, inform and push the electorate in a particular direction. I totally disagree that this is an accepted given and accurate description of the world and that's a big part of the issue. There's evidence to suggest that politicians can shape the opinion of the electorate and that the electorate responds to "what Democrats ought to believe" when prominent Democrats argue for a given policy. Edit: wow gently caress everyone who voted for that guy over Barbara Lee. Woooooooow.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:48
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Their might be a better thread for this but can I goonsource some research on ow much it would cost to process and resettle caravan migrants, especially versus the cost of Trump's combined border operation?
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Nov 29, 2018 00:48
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Deified Data posted:Their might be a better thread for this but can I goonsource some research on ow much it would cost to process and resettle caravan migrants, especially versus the cost of Trump's combined border operation? We do have an immigration thread. It is here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3848439 And it is actually good.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:49
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Lightning Knight posted:I totally disagree that this is an accepted given and accurate description of the world and that's a big part of the issue. There's evidence to suggest that politicians can shape the opinion of the electorate and that the electorate responds to "what Democrats ought to believe" when prominent Democrats argue for a given policy. I'm pretty sure there's a Don Draper quote about how sometimes you have to tell people what they want.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:50
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:There is nothing specifically 'leftist" about buying into fox news framing and miss-narratives. Like you got some big stupid gotcha that obama voted for a compromise bill in 2006 like if you were elected you'd simply not vote on anything and let republicans write all legislature and tell yourself that made you a good person because you'd rather have immigration be a felony as long as you don't have to sign your name to anything but perfect legislature. They could have just filibustered the evil bill, and it's not like voting for 1/3 of the wall gave them any credit from Republicans anyway they still got called open-borders white genocide plotting Marxists. The only thing voting for compromise legislation does is give Republicans an opportunity to attack bipartisan Dems for being hypocrites, which is an effective attack because they are that lol
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Nov 29, 2018 00:50
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Lightning Knight posted:We do have an immigration thread. Thanks.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:50
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Giggy posted:I'm pretty sure there's a Don Draper quote about how sometimes you have to tell people what they want. I am reminded of the bullshit libertarian argument that like, Apple somehow recognized this great desire for an iPhone and filled that need, as opposed to selling people a product they made using marketing and branding.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:52
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Lightning Knight posted:I totally disagree that this is an accepted given and accurate description of the world and that's a big part of the issue. There's evidence to suggest that politicians can shape the opinion of the electorate and that the electorate responds to "what Democrats ought to believe" when prominent Democrats argue for a given policy. This entire recurring conversation always reminds me of Adams: quote:It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
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Nov 29, 2018 00:52
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:There is nothing specifically 'leftist" about buying into fox news framing and miss-narratives. Do you ever try to actually contend with facts that threaten your worldview? Or is this "fox news framing" thought-terminating cliche you employ the only coping mechanism you have? quote:Like you got some big stupid gotcha that obama voted for a compromise bill in 2006 like if you were elected you'd simply not vote on anything and let republicans write all legislature and tell yourself that made you a good person because you'd rather have immigration be a felony as long as you don't have to sign your name to anything but perfect legislature. I probably would prefer a legislator that doesn't vote at all to one which affirmatively votes for racist legislation, yes.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:57
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Lightning Knight posted:I am reminded of the bullshit libertarian argument that like, Apple somehow recognized this great desire for an iPhone and filled that need, as opposed to selling people a product they made using marketing and branding. Which is especially bizarre because people were talking about the inevitability of an iPhone like the day after the iPod was released.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:58
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VitalSigns posted:They could have just filibustered the evil bill, and it's not like voting for 1/3 of the wall gave them any credit from Republicans anyway they still got called open-borders white genocide plotting Marxists. You get that if you lived in a world where the house bill where illegal immigration was a felony was the one that passed you'd be crying "those useless dems! all they had to do was vote for a useless short fence to have stopped this, but they'd rather murder babies I guess! honestly this is what they wanted" or something.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:58
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https://twitter.com/WeAreSinclair/status/1067926594197438464 "This segment we literally forced our affiliates to air does not reflect our views." 
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Nov 29, 2018 00:58
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DaveWoo posted:https://twitter.com/WeAreSinclair/status/1067926594197438464 Post truth America.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:59
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DaveWoo posted:https://twitter.com/WeAreSinclair/status/1067926594197438464 I'm still waiting for the viral Deadspin mash-up of this segment.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:59
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Skex posted:If you want people to change their minds on something, you have to be able to let them actually change. This is not about helping someone quit smoking or being supportive when your friend who's in a diet breaks down and eats a cheeseburger. These are people with both agency and power, not to mention the backing of a structure enthusiastically opposed to change. As Chuck Schumer demonstrates, the wheels are turning while we try to find the gentlest, less offensive ways to show to our loving representatives that hey, maybe don't turn insulin into a luxury item because your Pharma liason is just so nice and golfs so well. People are getting appointed, laws are getting passed, often with help from the 'opposition' party because hey, it would just be mean to herd all these lovable cats. Skex posted:But the historical reality is that for the most part in the history of the United States, politicians follow the electorate. Sure there is some push pull going on as politicians try to sell their ideas and policies. But in general the big changes, the stuff actually moves the needle towards a more just world, that comes from the bottom up. Demonstrably untrue. Medicare for all and other single-payer oriented program are all ridiculously popular (especially once framed in ways different than 'government option) and only get the most token actual support. Issues like abortion and gun control are also often guided not my majorities but by engaged, loud minority factions that are organized and able to inflict political pain on those who stand in their way. poo poo, abortion was literally a subject picked out of a hat in the 1970s for the christian right to organize behind once they decided not to stay in the background anymore.
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Nov 29, 2018 01:00
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Lightning Knight posted:
Well duh because it's Clancy cannon that Russia joined NATO to get help fighting china  Some people out there are reading this and thinking "no, that's too stupid you must be explaining it wrong". Noope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bear_and_the_Dragon VitalSigns posted:That's not an inherent flaw of their system, that was the government stupidly putting a vote they couldn't afford to lose up to a referendum that they promised to follow in order to shut people up. I understand the point you're trying to make here but I would like to point out that the constitution doesn't give the federal government the power to force states to put random questions on the ballot.
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Nov 29, 2018 01:02
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Tom Clancy fan fiction about Russia's ability to conquer the former Eastern Bloc doesn't belong in this thread, tia.
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MAGA is trying their own late night comedy show https://mobile.twitter.com/dweckshow/status/1067235162755395589 Featuring Gilbert Godfried
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Nov 29, 2018 01:03
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VitalSigns posted:The lame duck period used to be 4 months, we had to amend our constitution to reduce it to 2 months because FDR couldn't start dealing with the Depression until almost half a year after he was elected. Amending the constitution is also really hard. And this is the reason the founding fathers did something actually smart and said “there’s no loving way we can know what’s in the future let’s make this a living document so it can be wholesale changed to fit an evolving world as needed” but the GOP making jacking of to the original constitution such a thing that it’ll be impossible without a massive shift in public support to ever change it at this point. Which is what the GOP wants because the constitution as is can be so vague on anything approaching the modern world that they can interpret it with *~originalism~* to fit their stances no matter how warped the reasoning is
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Nov 29, 2018 01:03
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Lightning Knight posted:Is it incomprehensible to you that people have a problem with what's going on? not even close to what i said and you know it
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Nov 29, 2018 01:03
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Skex posted:If you want people to change their minds on something, you have to be able to let them actually change. I bet I can think of an Affordable Act if I Cared to ponder the question that is a major flaw in your argument
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Nov 29, 2018 01:04
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