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I missed out the N64 and PS1 era, so I tried playing some of the games I missed like Goldeneye. I played it on an emulator with framerate and graphical improvements, as well as M+K. It was surprisingly fun and I can't imagine having played it the way people must have back then. I also have a really soft spot for FPS games like NOLF that let you use little gadgets to burn locks or hack stuff.
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Nov 28, 2018 14:24
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Plan Z posted:I missed out the N64 and PS1 era, so I tried playing some of the games I missed like Goldeneye. I played it on an emulator with framerate and graphical improvements, as well as M+K. It was surprisingly fun and I can't imagine having played it the way people must have back then. I also have a really soft spot for FPS games like NOLF that let you use little gadgets to burn locks or hack stuff. You really, really should find a way to play the Perfect Dark HD remaster. Whether on Xbox 360, or that Rare Retro Replay compilation on XB1, they really made that game shine, both literally and figuratively (my god, the bloom!). I always said that the two things I wanted from the original PD was a better, not-poo poo framerate, and online multiplayer, and goddammit, the remaster has both, and it is incredible. Anyone who wants their Goldeneye fix really needs to check that game out. And just to clarify, I'm not, in any way, referring to Perfect Dark Zero. Ugh.
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Nov 28, 2018 14:44
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I'm Pierce Brosnan's very wide mouth.
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Nov 28, 2018 14:53
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I loved Goldeneye but I couldn't get into Perfect Dark. It's because I could never figure out how to beat the first level, and I didn't want to look up a guide. I wanted to figure it out, but I never did. This is one of my greatest gaming shames.
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Nov 28, 2018 14:59
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I loved Goldeneye but I couldn't get into Perfect Dark. It's because I could never figure out how to beat the first level, and I didn't want to look up a guide. I wanted to figure it out, but I never did. This is one of my greatest gaming shames. Play it on easy, it'll be pretty straightforward.
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Nov 28, 2018 15:08
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Pssh. I'm a 00 Agent mothafucka
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Nov 28, 2018 15:11
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Perfect Dark was so good. It's a shame no other series really adopted Rare's oddball take on the FPS genre, besides I guess Timesplitters.
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Nov 28, 2018 15:12
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:You really, really should find a way to play the Perfect Dark HD remaster. Whether on Xbox 360, or that Rare Retro Replay compilation on XB1, they really made that game shine, both literally and figuratively (my god, the bloom!). I always said that the two things I wanted from the original PD was a better, not-poo poo framerate, and online multiplayer, and goddammit, the remaster has both, and it is incredible. PDHD is worth picking up a used 360 for, its that good
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Nov 28, 2018 15:13
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exquisite tea posted:Perfect Dark was so good. It's a shame no other series really adopted Rare's oddball take on the FPS genre, besides I guess Timesplitters. I tried to emulate Timesplitters 2 but the aiming controls were some of the worst I've ever seen. If there was some way to use mouselook I would be all over it.
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Nov 28, 2018 15:13
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Pssh. I'm a 00 Agent mothafucka Your previous post implies otherwise. Exibit 008: SolidSnakesBandana posted:I loved Goldeneye but I couldn't get into Perfect Dark. It's because I could never figure out how to beat the first level, and I didn't want to look up a guide. I wanted to figure it out, but I never did. This is one of my greatest gaming shames. For real, though, my main point is, beat it on easy to get the lay of the level and the general idea of the whole thing. Then, when you play on harder difficulties and they throw a ton of extra objectives at you that bring you to places you'd never otherwise go to, you're more prepared. Easy is more-or-less "shoot the people during your trip from A to B". Special Agent, or whatever the hardest one, adds in poo poo like pacifying certain people, stealing a necklace, downloading/uploading poo poo. It's great, but get used to the levels first.
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Nov 28, 2018 15:18
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Perfect Agent is where the levels really get involved, especially the later levels. The damage enemies can do really ramps as well. I watched someone stream PDZ recently and Perfect Agent is no cakewalk. There’s not as many levels but they are much longer and some of them are very unforgiving with their checkpoint placement. Like the original, the final boss is very easy on all difficulties.
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Nov 28, 2018 16:12
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:PDHD is worth picking up a used 360 for, its that good I don't have the shelf space or video inputs spare to buy a 360.  MS really need to hurry up and rerelease PDHD on the Windows Store/XB1.
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Nov 28, 2018 17:19
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if you press pause and read the objectives it tells you what you need to do on first level 00 im guessing you didnt throw a bug on one of the consoles either at the beginning or in the room next to the exit elevator
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Nov 28, 2018 17:26
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The month or two that people were actively playing Perfect Dark HD online was great. Unfortunately, modern gamers got upset with Farsights and Pinball grenades and it didn't last.
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Nov 28, 2018 17:28
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site posted:if you press pause and read the objectives it tells you what you need to do I love how you could totally fail the mission if you didn't place the bug properly instead of, you know, picking it back up and moving it two inches to the left.
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Nov 28, 2018 17:52
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something i have fallen victim of far too many times trying to go fast
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Nov 28, 2018 20:19
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:PDHD is worth picking up a used 360 for, its that good My 360 pretty much exists as a Skate 1/2/3 machine these days.
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Nov 28, 2018 22:12
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exquisite tea posted:Are Goldeneye 64 graphics too ugly to even get the indie retro treatment? Or is that just the next frontier of nostalgia gaming. Well what do you mean by that? Nobody really wants the massive blur and super low quality texture part, but the models in general seem reasonably popular in retro-y things right now. They're higher quality than PS1 type models after all. Lemon-Lime posted:I don't have the shelf space or video inputs spare to buy a 360. Perfect Dark's remaster is already available for the Xbox One, it's in Rare Replay AND you can just buy it on its own since the 360 version is still on the Xbone store.
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Nov 28, 2018 22:14
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exquisite tea posted:Are Goldeneye 64 graphics too ugly to even get the indie retro treatment? Or is that just the next frontier of nostalgia gaming. I think we're getting there. Not long ago all the retro stuff was almost exclusively 2D, sprites, and pseudo-8/16bit but we've reached the point where early 3D is also in vogue with games like Dusk and Nightdive's Turok remasters.
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Nov 29, 2018 01:28
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exquisite tea posted:I love how you could totally fail the mission if you didn't place the bug properly instead of, you know, picking it back up and moving it two inches to the left. Well it's like accidentally placing a stamp on the wrong envelope; you can try to peel it back off but it's never gonna be the same. 
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Nov 29, 2018 03:22
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:For real, though, my main point is, beat it on easy to get the lay of the level and the general idea of the whole thing. Then, when you play on harder difficulties and they throw a ton of extra objectives at you that bring you to places you'd never otherwise go to, you're more prepared.
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Nov 29, 2018 04:15
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Both of PD’s instant fail “stealth” segments are just running up to guards standing by buttons and killing them. Hell the second instance is at the start of the level and you have a robot to tranquilize everyone. Or you just shoot them with the crossbow.
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Nov 29, 2018 04:31
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I feel like I remember more than two of these events. And it's easy enough to avoid them, sure... if you know where they are. Which you won't in your first playthrough. Mine was rather miserable. Subsequent playthroughs were better. Still worth playing.
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Nov 29, 2018 04:33
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There are alarms in several levels, but triggering them doesn’t fail the mission.
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Nov 29, 2018 04:36
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Gobblecoque posted:I think we're getting there. Not long ago all the retro stuff was almost exclusively 2D, sprites, and pseudo-8/16bit but we've reached the point where early 3D is also in vogue with games like Dusk and Nightdive's Turok remasters. I dunno, it's hard to argue that early 3D is a unique art form like sprites are. It's so clearly constrained by technology in ways that artists weren't really able to work around, it's hard to imagine anyone feeling nostalgic not for a specific game but for the idea of blurry fields of color, shimmering affine textures, the inability to draw anything curved, etc. Like how most retro games look like 16-bit titles or newer, nobody wants to play pre-NES games that couldn't even paint the whole screen with stick figures each frame. But what do I know, maybe in 20 years there'll be a revival of 20fps games with obvious pop-in and crappy shadows.
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Nov 29, 2018 05:03
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I'm inclined to disagree with that. Like, not the part where the devs of contemporary games were clearly trying to bite off more than they could chew and running into hardware limitations, because that much is pretty true, but their attempts to work around it basically did end up, unintentionally or not, creating a unique aesthetic that I'm nostalgic for. ...Some parts of. Basically, I rather like low-poly models and level design, but I also wanna run it at HD resolutions and high framerates with ample anti-aliasing and anisotropic filtering. Basically, running an old 1990s PC game on a modern PC (or in a source port to accommodate the playing thereof). I love the aesthetics of Quake, even with its obsession with earthy hues. As for console gaming, I can take some parts of the 32/64-bit era as-is, though I would prefer to leave other parts behind (low framerates, the lack of perspective-correct texturing, excessive dithering in the case of the PS1). Those didn't look really good until the Dreamcast onward (and even then, playing them in this day and age, the aliasing kinda bothers me), but I find some charm in the generation prior even with its warts.
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Nov 29, 2018 05:15
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haveblue posted:I dunno, it's hard to argue that early 3D is a unique art form like sprites are. It's so clearly constrained by technology in ways that artists weren't really able to work around, it's hard to imagine anyone feeling nostalgic not for a specific game but for the idea of blurry fields of color, shimmering affine textures, the inability to draw anything curved, etc. Like how most retro games look like 16-bit titles or newer, nobody wants to play pre-NES games that couldn't even paint the whole screen with stick figures each frame. There's a ton of those games out there right now on places like itch.io It's particularly popular for things like horror games cuz afrter all, it's really easy to bend those limitations into a spooky scary atmosphere - it's why things like the original Silent Hill can hold up really well the way some regular action game from the time can't.
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Nov 29, 2018 05:16
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haveblue posted:I dunno, it's hard to argue that early 3D is a unique art form like sprites are. It's so clearly constrained by technology in ways that artists weren't really able to work around, it's hard to imagine anyone feeling nostalgic not for a specific game but for the idea of blurry fields of color, shimmering affine textures, the inability to draw anything curved, etc. Like how most retro games look like 16-bit titles or newer, nobody wants to play pre-NES games that couldn't even paint the whole screen with stick figures each frame. In all honesty, the N64 was basically pulling off the exact same "style" as the Dreamcast or PS2 due to being an early example of a real GPU, but with significantly shittier resources behind it. Anyone nostalgic for the visual look of that generation is gonna go for the PSX style or go more detailed than the N64 would have actually been able to handle. A few N64 games looked decent, but there was never really anything that stood out as a graphics showcase unique to the system, AFAIK. Technical marvels, sure, like how much audio they crammed into Conker's Bad Fur Day or getting all of RE2 on a single cart, but all the absolute best looking stuff on the N64 still didn't look great. Conker was probably the best looking game on the system, and it didn't really look unique so much as it did an early-gen Dreamcast game.
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Nov 29, 2018 05:35
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haveblue posted:I dunno, it's hard to argue that early 3D is a unique art form like sprites are. It's so clearly constrained by technology in ways that artists weren't really able to work around, it's hard to imagine anyone feeling nostalgic not for a specific game but for the idea of blurry fields of color, shimmering affine textures, the inability to draw anything curved, etc. Like how most retro games look like 16-bit titles or newer, nobody wants to play pre-NES games that couldn't even paint the whole screen with stick figures each frame. I do have a very specific appreciation for Quake 1's aesthetic, though that mostly comes from seeing screenshots of fanmade levels and playing games like Devil Daggers and...well, probably just Devil Daggers so far, because I've never played past the shareware levels of Q1. Otherwise, most early 3D shooters were just aiming for as close to "realistic graphics" as they could achieve and yeah, it was a tech limitation. Even Half Life, one of my absolute favourites and one of the early FPS games I played, well, I don't really want to play something that looks like Half Life, I want to play something with a well-made, varied, interesting campaign.
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Nov 29, 2018 05:48
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Many 3D games of that era look(ed) ugly as sin but imo Quake is the only one that stood out in any meaningful way because it's supposed to feel rusty and rough around the edges and doesn't pretend to look any better than that. I still think the game looks great and any source port (including the original GLquake) that attempts to "improve upon" the original software rendering look is missing the point. Call the cops on me for my bad opinions I don't give a gently caress 
Mak0rz fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Nov 29, 2018 |
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Nov 29, 2018 05:53
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Dewgy posted:In all honesty, the N64 was basically pulling off the exact same "style" as the Dreamcast or PS2 due to being an early example of a real GPU, but with significantly shittier resources behind it. This doesn't really make sense. N64 could do a lot of stuff significantly better than the PS1 could, and often did. The blurriness and the small texture cache issues could also be worked around and were in some of the better games. A lot of people who aim for a "PS1" look are going to err more on the side of what the N64 could and did do in what they make. For example, most people aren't going to remember to make their PS1 game have the full swimming texture/vertex jiggle look. And when you straight up copy PS1-grade models and such into a modernish game engine you'll end up with blocky stuff that has mostly accurate textures and stable vertices - basically N64 stuff.
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Nov 29, 2018 05:53
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Gotta preface this by admitting i havent played games on either actual physical console in at least a decade but the major difference i remember is that ps1 games often would go for more detailed looks but they were aliased af compared to 64 games
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Nov 29, 2018 06:01
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haveblue posted:I dunno, it's hard to argue that early 3D is a unique art form like sprites are. It's so clearly constrained by technology in ways that artists weren't really able to work around, it's hard to imagine anyone feeling nostalgic not for a specific game but for the idea of blurry fields of color, shimmering affine textures, the inability to draw anything curved, etc. Like how most retro games look like 16-bit titles or newer, nobody wants to play pre-NES games that couldn't even paint the whole screen with stick figures each frame. I'm not arguing for whether it's good or not, but just stating that a trend of harkening back to early 3D is a thing that's happening and it undeniably is. I think trying to define whether one form of graphics is an art form and another isn't is a whole can of worms and not a terribly useful one at that. People liking the aesthetic of rough, even ugly stuff that comes from old constraints is definitely not a new thing.
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Nov 29, 2018 06:12
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The Kins posted:Meanwhile, the Quake mapping community continues to be unfuckwithable: Well said. 
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Nov 29, 2018 06:14
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site posted:Gotta preface this by admitting i havent played games on either actual physical console in at least a decade but the major difference i remember is that ps1 games often would go for more detailed looks but they were aliased af compared to 64 games But yeah, PS1 had no anti-aliasing whatsoever while N64 forced anti-aliasing on every frame (unless the game explicitly turned it off, as Quake 64 could do, or you force it with a GameShark code, which can even sometimes boost performance by one single frame per second!). PS1 had no texture filtering at all, while N64 forced a unique three-point filter (which sorta looked like bilinear filtering but wasn't). PS1 had no perspective-correct texturing or subpixel vertex placement, resulting in warping textures and wobbly models, but N64 has both of those things, so its graphics basically just look as stable as modern graphics are, but super-low-end. N64 even had a RAM expansion slot to let developers store more texture data (considering the amount of VRAM they had to work with otherwise was pretty measly), though its use was somewhat limited; the PS1 got nothing (a shame, since even the Saturn benefited from RAM expansion carts - if mostly for 2D games - so it just makes one question what could have been). Given all that, it's no wonder N64 holds up better graphically... but PS1 had CDs and was a lot less draconian on printing of games, so it got the goods that the N64 didn't. Incidentally you can turn off anti-aliasing and texture filtering in some games pretty easily, and there are Unity shaders out there to emulate the lack of perspective-correct texturing and subpixel vertex placement, so you can go for a somewhat-authentic PS1 look. I think this one horror game that was shooting for a Silent Hill-ish aesthetic did just that, even (Back in 1995, though the game has serious problems beyond graphics that kinda make it not worth playing - certainly not at $10). It's just that going for the low-poly look without those inconveniences is generally a lot more pleasing all-around.
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Nov 29, 2018 06:18
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The RAM expansion for the N64 wasn't really about texture memory. The GPU in the N64 is set up so that there's only 4 kilobytes available for the texture cache, which means you mostly have to use small textures in order to not have to do some very headache-inducing custom programming to handle swapping around stuff from the cartridge and main RAM storage fast enough to ensure you have both high res textures and enough of them for the whole game. Also Nintendo essentially refused to provide documentation or tools for how to do said custom programming for a long time, so very few games could really work around it. You had to have clever devs like Factor 5 come up with some seriously crazy stuff to really beat that limit down and basically unlock the potential that the rest of the 3d hardware could let you do. Most of their games that really went crazy with that did happen to require RAM expansion to handle all the other stuff they were doing at the same time of course. Funnily enough the PlayStation 1 texture cache was actually half the size of the N64's, but the rest of the system's architecture happened to mean that was less of an issue for having relatively quality textures on stuff (something like the way the different types of RAM had latency between the two systems meant it was much more of a hassle to be sure you can stream textures to the GPU's cache in time to keep up your framerate on the N64?). And the Saturn's setup was something altogether different. But really given the rest of the architecture Nintendo was already going for, they should have provided for much more texture cache space.
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Nov 29, 2018 06:50
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Shadow Hog posted:This entire thing is good advice, though I feel like the bolded is much less true for Perfect Dark than it is Goldeneye; PD has a few instant-fail stealth conditions that tripped me up, whereas GE's punishment for failing stealth was just throwing infinitely-spawning guards your way, though you could still fight through that and win without having to repeat the entire level afterward. Ok, fair enough, but for the Datadyne HQ, on easy, you can get by with shooting everything and everyone, and you're ok. Goon I was advising was stuck on the first level. When they get to Chicago, well.... that's a whole other n-grenade.
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Nov 29, 2018 15:41
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:Ok, fair enough, but for the Datadyne HQ, on easy, you can get by with shooting everything and everyone, and you're ok. Goon I was advising was stuck on the first level. When they get to Chicago, well.... that's a whole other n-grenade. If you're playing on easy you can just jump off the roof at the start and fall into the exit elevator, easiest level ever.
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Nov 29, 2018 16:09
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Wait what
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Nov 29, 2018 16:43
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Yeah, what the hell?
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Nov 29, 2018 16:54
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