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I don't know what an Oracle is but the answer is Big Freedia.
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Nov 30, 2018 06:46
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:I don't know what an Oracle is but the answer is Big Freedia. as an IRL Silver Ladder I can confirm this is what awakening as an Obrimos looks like for Mastigos it's more like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn-6fiVkAcA
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Nov 30, 2018 06:54
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Which splat awakens like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMUDVMiITOU
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Nov 30, 2018 06:57
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Loomer posted:Which splat awakens like this? that's 100% Thyrsus more seriously I'm definitely gonna ask my players to represent their Mystery Play by picking a music video if I ever actually get to run Mage
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Nov 30, 2018 07:01
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Moros: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOOi9y-1c0g
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Nov 30, 2018 07:15
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joining the free council: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acT_PSAZ7BQ
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Nov 30, 2018 07:50
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I dig this game. I propose this for an Acanthus that is immediately snapped up by the Free Council. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gaEhK2C0tQ
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Nov 30, 2018 08:16
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Luarien posted:I dig this game. For comparison, Acanthus snapped up by the Mysterium most likely - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmZexg8sxyk
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Nov 30, 2018 08:22
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Moros Arrow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSxuO36XXDQ
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Nov 30, 2018 10:57
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An Oracle is a theoretical being responsible for the one of the Supernal Watchtowers. The Watchtowers are the symbols of the five mage Paths, that include new mages into themselves to Awaken them, and pretty much define magic. There's some evidence (the nature of which is pretty esoteric even for MageChat standards - just take my word for it ooc and the word of mages who've spent lifetimes teasing this poo poo out ic) that they are in some way like Ochemata - they seem to be autonomous, maybe even sapient, extensions of something else. That something else is called an Oracle. No one's ever met one, and no summoned Supernal entity has known what mages are talking about when asked about then, but to some of the Orders (the Ladder especially) the Oracles are the missing "good guy Exarchs", who Ascended but *don't* want to rule the universe, and created the Watchtowers to make new mages for the rebellion. Dave Brookshaw fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Nov 30, 2018 |
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Nov 30, 2018 11:23
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Dave Brookshaw posted:An Oracle is a theoretical being responsible for the one of the Supernal Watchtowers. The Watchtowers are the symbols of the five mage Paths, that include new mages into themselves to Awaken them, and pretty much define magic. There's some evidence (the nature of which is pretty esoteric even for MageChat standards - just take my word for it ooc and the word of mages who've spent lifetimes teasing this poo poo out ic) that they are in some way like Ochemata - they seem to be autonomous, maybe even sapient, extensions of something else. So, would you say they don't mean to be rude?
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Nov 30, 2018 11:42
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Dave Brookshaw posted:That something else is called an Oracle. No one's ever met one, and no summoned Supernal entity has known what mages are talking about when asked about then, but to some of the Orders (the Ladder especially) the Oracles are the missing "good guy Exarchs", who Ascended but *don't* want to rule the universe, and created the Watchtowers to make new mages for the rebellion. If the Oracles didn't exist, mages would have to invent them?
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Nov 30, 2018 14:02
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Side note, the Oracles are themselves kind of amazing, because we're taking what is already the World of Platonic Forms and then going 'okay, so, what if, stay with me here, these bits here are the shadows cast upon the wall of the cave by something bigger and greater that we can't see?' It's loving Platonic caveception here.
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Nov 30, 2018 14:47
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The Allegory of the Cavia
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Nov 30, 2018 14:58
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Honestly, for all the effort at finding some way that would make it look better to me, I dislike nMage-as-written more with every thing I learn about it. It's like all the worst things about early oMage antagonists combined with everything that was obnoxious and frustrating about early oVampire protagonist roles. The antagonists are 1st edition Technocracy style villainous caricatures of The Man Hating You For Your Freedom, while your own society is at the same time every bit as calcified and intrinsically hostile to any attempt at changing it for the better as any Camarilla neonates' Elysium interactions with the city's elders were. Winning at anything is a pipe dream because both sides are, at the highest levels, run by ancient, super-powerful monsters who are actually all playing the same game by mutual gentlemen's agreement and have done so for centuries or even millennia. I can plainly see that a lot of people really like that new setting a lot, in many cases even a lot more than they ever liked the old Mage, but when I sum up the "one step forward, two steps back" impressions I keep getting from it like this, I just can't really imagine why. Getting rid of that exact kind of thing was basically the entire motivation for reducing the scale of Requiem to a far more low-powered local level: a setting where you can actually make a difference, because even if the cards are stacked against you, they're at least not stacked with a thousand-years-old global supernatural society's worth of inertia, coming squarely down on you like a sack of bricks for even trying.
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Nov 30, 2018 15:05
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Moros that had an Abyssal awakening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ827lkktYs
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Nov 30, 2018 15:09
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Cardiovorax posted:Honestly, for all the effort at finding some way that would make it look better to me, I dislike nMage-as-written more with every thing I learn about it. It's like all the worst things about early oMage antagonists combined with everything that was obnoxious and frustrating about early oVampire protagonist roles. The antagonists are 1st edition Technocracy style villainous caricatures of The Man Hating You For Your Freedom, while your own society is at the same time every bit as calcified and intrinsically hostile to any attempt at changing it for the better as any Camarilla neonates' Elysium interactions with the city's elders were. Winning at anything is a pipe dream because both sides are, at the highest levels, run by ancient, super-powerful monsters who are actually all playing the same game by mutual gentlemen's agreement and have done so for centuries or even millennia. please actually read the 2e core
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Nov 30, 2018 15:14
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It's just that I've been going through the thread backwards and seeing people say things like "pax arcana" and "yeah, even your own group's leadership will come after you if you actually try to shake things up too much" really makes me wonder who thought that was a good idea, or at least a better idea than the old setting conflict.
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Nov 30, 2018 15:24
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Cardiovorax posted:Honestly, for all the effort at finding some way that would make it look better to me, I dislike nMage-as-written more with every thing I learn about it. which books-as-written did you read I mean, I sympathize with you, because folks are piling on you pretty far past the point where you acknowledged they've got something cool and you just have your own subjective preference. But the number two causes of misapprehension about what nWoD games are like seem to be "skimmed the 1e core, stopped there, still assume game is frozen at that point" and "body of secondhand information taken from what people said in internet arguments." Only one person in this conversation has actually written anything for Mage: the Awakening to my knowledge, and he's pretty careful to separate what he says as line developer and what he says as a dude with opinions and preferences. You're not morally obligated to buy and read a book for a game you don't plan to run, of course, but continuing a conversation is optional.
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Nov 30, 2018 15:24
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Mors Rattus posted:Side note, the Oracles are themselves kind of amazing, because we're taking what is already the World of Platonic Forms and then going 'okay, so, what if, stay with me here, these bits here are the shadows cast upon the wall of the cave by something bigger and greater that we can't see?' It's loving Platonic caveception here. It's caves all the way up.
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Nov 30, 2018 15:28
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Cardiovorax posted:It's just that I've been going through the thread backwards and seeing people say things like "pax arcana" and "yeah, even your own group's leadership will come after you if you actually try to shake things up too much" really makes me wonder who thought that was a good idea, or at least a better idea than the old setting conflict. I think it should probably be clear with the variety of perspectives you've had people arguing at you from that going through this thread to get an idea of a Mage setting isn't going to actually give you the clearest idea of what's going on. Of course it's also becoming clear that you might just not like it!
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Nov 30, 2018 15:28
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Cardiovorax posted:It's just that I've been going through the thread backwards and seeing people say things like "pax arcana" and "yeah, even your own group's leadership will come after you if you actually try to shake things up too much" really makes me wonder who thought that was a good idea, or at least a better idea than the old setting conflict. Yeah no both of those things are wrong and dumb. The Pax Arcana is just 'this is why archmasters don't do stupid poo poo and become background elements to your game.' It is the way to slide elder-type characters offscreen. It doesn't even apply to any PCs. As for your group's leadership coming after you: no. Not at all. The Silver Ladder and the Free Council want to shake things up, and the Guardians, the PC group most invested in keeping poo poo locked down and not making waves, are also the darkest of the PC groups. The main reason you don't want to do magic in front of people is not that you have to keep the secret or maintain the status quo, it's that it is wrong to cause massive aneurysms and mental problems in random civilians. Which is the fault of the Lie and your enemies. Awaken all people, free magic from tyranny. Every man is a god, every man is free.
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Nov 30, 2018 15:28
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I Am Just a Box posted:You're not morally obligated to buy and read a book for a game you don't plan to run, of course, but continuing a conversation is optional. Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Nov 30, 2018 |
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Nov 30, 2018 15:29
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We all have those days, try to slow yourself down when you can and take care of yourself. After all, the stress of labor, too, is the work of the Ex(body checked, punched in face)
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Nov 30, 2018 16:15
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I'll do that, thanks for being so reasonable about it instead of picking a fight right back. With the kind of day I've had, that would've ended up being just plain embarrassing.
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Nov 30, 2018 16:20
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Finally decided to shell out an arm and a leg for Changeling 2nd, and then the page for preorders on backerkit was taken down  Great service, OP..
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Nov 30, 2018 16:21
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I Am Just a Box posted:We all have those days, try to slow yourself down when you can and take care of yourself. (Smothers with a pillow that is also a tool of the lie) I have to say I do appreciate this conversation, as I actually sort of understand mage now rather than it being an impenetrable gray wall of latin-ish keywords.
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Nov 30, 2018 16:29
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So, anyway, about them there mage splats. One thing I really like is how the different supernal origins are a lot like Avatar Essences from oMage, but more fleshed-out and set up in a way that lets you use them to define how your character personally relates to his magic and journey of enlightenment on a day-to-day level rather than only during Arete questings. It's more integral than the Traditions were, as a character-defining choice, but doesn't feel too constraining in terms of how it allows you to act in practice. What do people here think about how well the Pentacle factions work for doing the same thing, though? The impression I'm getting from both the core book and the way some posters talk about them is that they're less ideological movements and more actual caste-system style roles the character is supposed to fulfil in mage society - someone called the Adamantine Arrow the "combat splat," in so many words. Is that how they're supposed to work? It would seem needlessly limiting to me, when compared to the more generalized "what I personally care about and how I think society should work" indicator role that Requiem covenants play. "Everything is struggle" is a great core attitude for a wide range of possible character concepts that you could do a lot more with than that.
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Nov 30, 2018 16:42
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The Arrow absolutely does more than brute physical combat. There was a whole thing when the 2e core was coming out about Adamantine lawyers. I think maybe just reading the core book is the best next step here.
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Nov 30, 2018 16:46
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Yeah, I think I'll really have to do that at some point. Right now I just want to nerd out about elfgames for a bit, let me have my fun.  quote:The Arrow absolutely does more than brute physical combat. There was a whole thing when the 2e core was coming out about Adamantine lawyers. Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Nov 30, 2018 |
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Nov 30, 2018 16:49
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The four orders in the diamond, the arrow, the ladder, the myaterium, and the guardians do consider themselves to make up an idealized society, they don't exactly agree on how that sounds work but they all fundamentally agree it includes the other three and there is a place for them. It's important to remember though today these four factions have not actually existed since the Fall, and there may not be any truth to the idea of them being the inheritors of a past society. The Free Council is essentially a separate allied society off on the side.
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Nov 30, 2018 16:50
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Cardiovorax posted:So, anyway, about them there mage splats. One thing I really like is how the different supernal origins are a lot like Avatar Essences from oMage, but more fleshed-out and set up in a way that lets you use them to define how your character personally relates to his magic and journey of enlightenment on a day-to-day level rather than only during Arete questings. It's more integral than the Traditions were, as a character-defining choice, but doesn't feel too constraining in terms of how it allows you to act in practice. The Arrow are "the combat splat" in the sense that their personal philosophy involves the necessity of knowing how to fight because conflict is morally required. The basic premises: The Silver Ladder seek to enlighten all and bring all to Awakening. They believe they are most appropriate to lead, as first among equals, and are equal parts intense arrogance and intense compassion, and that can be trouble. They even have a history of working with the Seers on some stuff, because the Ladder are dead certain they know best. The Adamantine Arrow believe that existence is sharpened by conflict and that their purpose is to serve as the blade of the Awakened society, and are firm believers in being honorable servants rather than leaders; they have had to confront a lot of ugly truths about themselves following the World Wars and their realization that their moral commitment to fighting for greater causes had issues if they weren't better about policing themselves and what causes they fought for. The Mysterium believe that magic is a living creature, that every spell is a part of its life, and that it therefore must be preserved and worshipped as a god and its greatest self hidden from the unworthy...which has led them to be the most racist against Sleepers, who cannot perceive what they imagine to be God. (Also they hide away dangerous magic to prevent its use from influencing the mind of the God-Magic.) The Guardians of the Veil believe that the Abyss is the most dangerous thing in the world, and that mortals must be kept from realizing the truth of magic until the Lie is defeated, because their doing so strengthens the Abyss due to the way the Lie works. They also, secretly, believe themselves to be damned and evil, the monsters who keep the world alive until Wizard Jesus comes to save everyone but them - and so they are both selfless and willing to commit terrible sins because that is their role. The Free Council believe that human activity and the world produce rather than reflect magic, and that this world matters, and that democracy matters. They contain within them a vast number of traditions of varying belief, and their problem is that they often value civility and loyalty to the org over moral considerations like 'these people steal and wield human souls as weapons.' Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Nov 30, 2018 |
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Nov 30, 2018 16:51
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Mors Rattus posted:The Free Council believe that human activity and the world produce rather than reflect magic, and that this world matters, and that democracy matters. They contain within them a vast number of traditions of varying belief, and their problem is that they often value civility and loyalty to the org over moral considerations like 'these people steal and wield human souls as weapons.' Is this where the Beast NPC lady who eats souls and gets bloody soul shits as a result came from?
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Nov 30, 2018 16:58
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Kurieg posted:Is this where the Beast NPC lady who eats souls and gets bloody soul shits as a result came from? I don't think so? It's me specifically referencing the Bokor, a tradition within the Free Council of wizards who coopted Voudoun terms to hide the fact that they literally steal human souls and enslave them (and dead people). They are a founding sect in the Council and deeply respected within it, and most Diamond mages find them horrifying but the Council refuses to get rid of them because they're loyal Councillors.
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Nov 30, 2018 17:02
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Mors Rattus posted:The Arrow are "the combat splat" in the sense that their personal philosophy involves the necessity of knowing how to fight because conflict is morally required.
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Nov 30, 2018 17:08
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Cardiovorax posted:There are plenty of ways to define "conflict," though, and I was kind of wondering how far the flexibility there really goes. The Traditions were more like overaching themes than character classes, which I really prefer as a general thing. A given Euthanatos might be a particularly morbid professional gambler or an actual for reals-serial killer running around "freeing the souls" of coma patients, and it would still fit the theme of "being about the importance of endings and random chance." You are correct. Most Arrows do pick up some combat skills as an outstretching of their philosophy, but it's not 100% required. The main thing is the moral ethos of service to a greater cause, the belief that total pacifism is moral cowardice even if you are willing to die for it, and the belief that conflict improves the soul and understanding of truth. None of which requires you to be good at punching people. The Orders are essentially broad philosophical and moral viewpoints on the proper role of magic and your relationship with it. (E: and also, like, organizations of mutual support and research. ...and sometimes religions, if you get to the inner parts.) Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Nov 30, 2018 |
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Nov 30, 2018 17:11
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Cardiovorax posted:What do people here think about how well the Pentacle factions work for doing the same thing, though? The impression I'm getting from both the core book and the way some posters talk about them is that they're less ideological movements and more actual caste-system style roles the character is supposed to fulfil in mage society - someone called the Adamantine Arrow the "combat splat," in so many words. Is that how they're supposed to work? It would seem needlessly limiting to me, when compared to the more generalized "what I personally care about and how I think society should work" indicator role that Requiem covenants play. "Everything is struggle" is a great core attitude for a wide range of possible character concepts that you could do a lot more with than that. In the original 1e core, they are presented as caste-system style roles, right down to implications that the Free Council is an echo of an eternal role of questioner/rebel. This is one of the many bad things about the 1e core. Their order book supplements, whose presentations get neatly folded into the 2e corebook splashes of each order, move them more towards ideologies, to the point where they become outright mystery cults with secret initiations and deeper doctrines guarded from dabblers. The Chronicler's Guide even introduced pithy three-word summaries of each ideology. The Arrows believe that service is magical. They focus on their own spiritual evolution through suborning themselves to the assistance of others and testing themselves against strife. They believe chasing conflict sharpens their understanding of themselves and thus the universe. The Guardians believe that magic is fragile. They are the greatest skeptics of Awakened society, always questioning whether a mage's power or knowledge gives them the moral authority to do what they do. Ironically, this means they're quickest to take the role of sin-eaters, choosing to do the dirty work and make the hard choices because they believe that if anyone else did it, they would do it harsher and less carefully. Their secret teachings, not shared with the rest of the Pentacle, anticipate a sorcerous messiah figure who will be able to teach them true wisdom and how to escape the grasp of the Abyss. The Mysterium believe that magic is alive. They seek out the supernal signs in mysteries across the world and appoint themselves as caretakers, to procure elements of power, take care of them, and keep them from the unenlightened and unworthy. They believe that supernal forms constitute a living, transcendent consciousness, a pantheistic godhead beyond the Old Gods and the Exarchs, and that gathering this secret knowledge puts them in closer contact with the life of the universe. The Ladder believe that magic is humanity's birthright. They think that every living being has the right to unobscured freedom, self-enlightenment and empowerment, and the road to Ascension is a collective struggle to break oppression and progress together, all peoples united as one nation. They also implicitly believe that each being has a natural station which they can reach on their own; even freed, not everyone will reach total enlightenment, and so it is the responsibility of the less enlightened to follow and aid the wiser, and the responsibility of the wiser to shepherd and care for the less wise and less powerful. This tends to populate the Ladder with the most idealistic and selfless of the Diamond mages, and also with the Diamond's most self-serving, arrogant tyrants. The Councillors believe that humanity is magical. They're the Ladder's equal and opposite. They violently oppose oppression and the holding back of humanity's potential, but they don't believe in the special privilege of supernal enlightenment, as they believe supernal truth courses through and is expressed in mundane human culture as much as it is secret runes and spontaneous grimoires. They embed themselves with mortal teachers to extract what greater truths can be revealed, and check the power of the mighty with the collective will of the masses, both in human society and in mage society. The Seers believe that magic is payment. The will of the Exarchs holds in thrall, but it will stay its hand for those sorcerers who submit their power to their graces. They accept servitude in exchange for luxury and power, preferring to rise to the station of wardens of the prison that is the Lie rather than risk the furious punishment courted by plotting to escape.
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Nov 30, 2018 17:16
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Alright then, thanks for clearing that question up. I don't really like the idea of being pidgeonholed into performing a particular function in the group, and the way that any WoD character can mechanically end up doing basically anything, no matter what the fluff says their particular group is about, is one of the big draws that I think the system has over the more D&D-ish systems. It has a lot of mechanical weaknesses, but it makes up for it by being really, really flexible in letting you do what you want. It's wasted if a splat is always supposed to just do one particular thing anyway, though.
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Nov 30, 2018 17:16
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Cardiovorax posted:Alright then, thanks for clearing that question up. I don't really like the idea of being pidgeonholed into performing a particular function in the group, and the way that any WoD character can mechanically end up doing basically anything, no matter what the fluff says their particular group is about, is one of the big draws that I think the system has over the more D&D-ish systems. It has a lot of mechanical weaknesses, but it makes up for it by being really, really flexible in letting you do what you want. It's wasted if a splat is always supposed to just do one particular thing anyway, though. Mechanically, the focus of the Orders is primarily found in the symbolism you can draw on to boost your magic, and the skills they are best at using for rotes, which each one has a selection of choice from and which isn't a huge deal even if you ignore them.
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Nov 30, 2018 17:22
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The Paths, IMO, are closer to the oMage Traditions. A Moros can fit either of the Euthanatos archetypes you mentioned. Your Path in nMage defines some of your overriding magical obsessions, your way of doing magic, and your way of seeing magic. Orders are more political. They can also affect your magic, especially your overriding magical obsessions, because they have political philosophies that are important to them. If Paths are about how you do magic, Orders are about why you do magic. The caste structure thing is a tiny bit true, in that the Pentacle thinks it's building new (or old! time shenanigans) Atlantis and the various Orders will have different political roles in their ideal utopian everyone-is-a-mage society. But again the 1E corebook, IMO, overdid it with the Atlantis stuff - it seemed to imply the Orders were actual castes from actual Atlantis that survived to this day. The various Order books, as mentioned, made it clear that they are historically created human societies that came together and decided they had enough beliefs in common to be (usually) able to work together. Kind of like, I dunno, the Council of Nicaea taking a whole bunch of groups of people who liked that Jesus fella and turning them into a church.
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Nov 30, 2018 17:24
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