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thetruegentleman posted:One of interesting questions is if there was one Ritual of Mensis, two, or perhaps even more: its entirely possible the scholars did their own ritual in the past, and those that followed after did it again just recently. Multiple rituals would make sense given that the Mensis scholars seem to have three distinct fates: Spiders, Skeleton Puppets, and the ones we'll see in the last part of the nightmare. It's kind of hard to reconcile all of them unless it scales with, uh, proximity? The scholars closest to ground zero went one way, the ones furthest away turned into spiders, or something.
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Nov 27, 2018 21:00
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He's praying to Ebrietas, whose name was Kos in an earlier stage of development. He's using Ebrietas' power to fight you (the Augur and A Call Beyond [which was previously called The Anger of Kos]), and it's probably through Ebrietas or her blood that the scholars of Byrgenwerth made Rom into a Great One. Ebrietas is the daughter of the Cosmos, which Micolash also mentions in his ramblings. Philippe fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Nov 27, 2018 |
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Nov 27, 2018 21:10
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Cardiovorax posted:I think the Nightmare of Mensis is a different place from the Hunter's Nightmare. Possible, but unlikely: you can see ship masts from the Nightmare, so it's probably the same place. It's even possible that this is all happening in the same realm, with the Hunters Dream below Yharnam, which is below the Hunter's Nightmare, which is below the Nightmare of Mensis. bony tony posted:He's praying to Ebrietas, whose name was Kos in an earlier stage of development. He's using Ebrietas' power to fight you (the Augur and A Call Beyond [which was previously called The Anger of Kos]), and it's probably through Ebrietas or her blood that the scholars of Byrgenwerth made Rom into a Great One. 1. The Augur means nothing: you can use it even after stabbing Ebrietas a bunch of times and then robbing her "corpse." She has no control over her own powers. 2. Ebrietas was helping the choir, who are rivals (and maybe outright enemies) to Mensis, she's probably connected with Rom (who paused the Mensis ritual,) since their both Kin, and she failed to ascend besides, so she's a poor choice of worship for people seeking to make or control dream realms. 3. If they changed the name, then they probably changed the story too: Kos is something we see in game, so his use of her name is almost certainly deliberate. If it weren't, the body on the beach would be named something else.
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Nov 28, 2018 01:12
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quote:Possible, but unlikely: you can see ship masts from the Nightmare, so it's probably the same place.
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Nov 28, 2018 02:06
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It is the same place. The Nightmare plane works in layers. Bottom layer (that we know of): Hunter's Nightmare First layer: Research Hall, Yharnam is visible from here Second layer: Fishing Hamlet, Yharnam is underwater and ship masts are visible from here Third layer: Nightmare Frontier, ship masts are visible through the fog Fourth layer: Nightmare of Mensis, ship masts juuuust barely peek up through the fog and you can see the Nightmare Frontier's rock structures edit: It's daytime in the Nightmare Frontier. The Nightmare of Mensis is nighttime for plot reasons, I think it's safe to say that the moon up there in the sky isn't just a moon. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Nov 28, 2018 |
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Nov 28, 2018 03:25
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ive been going w the idea that nightmares are separate places but also can be considered to coexist in whatever you want to call their medium and can physically interact (see snail from the sky)
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Nov 28, 2018 03:48
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I thought what you could see poking up through the fog was the spires from Yharnam? Anyway considering that it is an eldritch realm I think whatever beings that rule over the realm can do whatever they please to determine how they look.
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Nov 28, 2018 04:38
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I think it could go either way and not much would be different, really. The core principle is the same, that new planes of reality can be generated from thoughts and ideas and given physical form by the power of Great Ones, whether they end up smushed together like a layer cake or not.
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Nov 28, 2018 04:50
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It's been a while since I read it, but isn't that pretty much how Lovecraft's Dreamlands worked as well? Things were coterminous but not always coexistant.
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Nov 28, 2018 05:38
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I'm pretty sure Yharnam itself isn't in the Nightmare at all, or is only just being dragged in. The Yharnam visible from Fishing Hamlet is the Hunter's Nightmare Yharnam. Also we know of at least one unique Dreamscape which is the Lake where we fight Rom.
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Nov 28, 2018 06:22
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CJacobs posted:It is the same place. The Nightmare plane works in layers. But you're right that it doesn't really matter all that much. It might work like the infinite layers of the abyss for all I know. The important thing to take away is that the Great Ones can basically make these quasi-dimensions at will, and under the right circumstances, so can other powers. I'm fairly certain the Tomb of the Gods is another one of these, although it also physically exists as a real place under the surface of the earth. Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Nov 28, 2018 |
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Nov 28, 2018 14:39
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Another important factor is that the higher powers don't seem to be able to get rid of these worlds once they've been made. Or at least, we haven't met anything with the power to do so- if such a thing does exist in the Bloodborne world, I don't think it'd show its face anyway. Even with Micolash vanquished in both the real world AND the nightmare world, even though he was the host whose mind originally contained the place before it became reality, the Nightmare of Mensis still persists. It's just a completely empty void now.
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Nov 28, 2018 15:52
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This is really just my own conjecture, but I'm actually not sure the various dreams and nightmares are supposed to be in anyone's minds. I mean, not literally, anyway. The games calls them dreams, but fundamentally, they're supernatural expressions of eldritch knowledge. If that isn't the definition of "putting words to concepts mortal men were never meant to understand," then I don't know what is. Micolash may just be the host of the nightmare in that he somehow ended up being the focus of the ritual and what shaped the final result. My take on it so far has been more that it's supposed to signify that those places are ephemeral, shaped by thoughts and ideas and not quite entirely solid, that kind of thing, you know? They sort of exist alongside the world and are held together by someone or something, but they aren't really part of it. Like islands around a continent, maybe. I've read somewhere that it's said the Great Ones left the real world behind to live entirely in their own dreams and nightmares. I don't know if that's actually taken from the game or just someone's guess, but in a lot of ways, the definition of a Great One seems to be that to them, "dreams" and the "real world" are basically no different from each other anymore.
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Nov 28, 2018 17:02
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one could argue the difference between these dreams and the world simply lies in the power, inscrutability, and obscurity of the great one responsible for the world of yharnam
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Nov 28, 2018 22:21
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I believe that's a popular fan theory, yes. 
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Nov 28, 2018 22:35
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im not surprised but didnt know it was a whole thing actually :v
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Nov 28, 2018 22:36
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One issue I have with the DLC in the Soulsborne games is that the bosses are always so much harder and more complex than the vanilla endgame bosses. It is particularly stark in Bloodborne because the DLC here I think has the best and hardest bosses of any Soulsborne game. Then you go back and usually you've just got the final three vanilla ones who all put up about as much fight as a wet paper towel. I feel like they need an option to transition to the dlc after the vanilla game.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:18
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bike tory posted:One issue I have with the DLC in the Soulsborne games is that the bosses are always so much harder and more complex than the vanilla endgame bosses. It is particularly stark in Bloodborne because the DLC here I think has the best and hardest bosses of any Soulsborne game. Then you go back and usually you've just got the final three vanilla ones who all put up about as much fight as a wet paper towel. I feel like they need an option to transition to the dlc after the vanilla game. In DS3 you can stick around after completing the game, which is a good way to handle it imo. I haven't actually finished the DLC, I should go back to my hypothetically-all-achievements character.
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Nov 29, 2018 02:13
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GreyjoyBastard posted:In DS3 you can stick around after completing the game, which is a good way to handle it imo. Can you? I thought it was the same as DS1 where both kindling the flame or walking away ended the game. I really liked the second DS3 DLC but it doesn't quite top Bloodborne's in terms of lore/challenge/fairness.
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Nov 29, 2018 02:23
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I'm guessing they're developed on the assumption that by the time they're released, anyone who is likely to buy them has probably already played and finished the game at least once and is actively looking for something more challenging - which, in all fairness, is probably pretty close to the truth. To most players, they're optional postgame content whether or not you actually do them after the playthrough proper.
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Nov 29, 2018 02:31
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bike tory posted:One issue I have with the DLC in the Soulsborne games is that the bosses are always so much harder and more complex than the vanilla endgame bosses. It is particularly stark in Bloodborne because the DLC here I think has the best and hardest bosses of any Soulsborne game. Then you go back and usually you've just got the final three vanilla ones who all put up about as much fight as a wet paper towel. I feel like they need an option to transition to the dlc after the vanilla game. I think this is more a problem with specific final bosses in this game, because at least one of them stands up to the level of the DLC bosses.
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Nov 29, 2018 02:53
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Lord_Magmar posted:I think this is more a problem with specific final bosses in this game, because at least one of them stands up to the level of the DLC bosses. Really? Because my first play through I died like 15+ times on Ludwig and Orphan, but then came out and one-shot all the vanilla end game bosses. I guess Gehrman stands up kinda?
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Nov 29, 2018 02:57
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They're also the single two hardest bosses in the entirely Soulsborne series, in my opinion, so that may not be the most fair of examples to pick. In Dark Souls, I'd personally say that Gwyn measures up to the level of the DLC bosses just fine in terms of difficulty and is probably the closest equivalent to Artorias that you can get in any of the base games.
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Nov 29, 2018 03:03
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Bloodborne's DLC specifically is ball-bustingly hard whether you play it in NG or NG+, but personally I think the DLCs are generally harder for the reason Lord_Magmar suggests. They're 'meant' to be played on NG+, where the gap between player health/enemy damage and enemy health/player damage will be much more narrow due to your fully upgraded weapons and high physical defense (due to your character level). The idea being that by the time the DLC(s) come out, you will probably still have your completed save game from its initial release still lying around. Bloodborne's DLC is accessible very early on in the game, especially in NG+ because you can freely circumvent Old Yharnam. In NG if you go there as soon as possible you'll get stomped into the ground, but in NG+ you're already prepared for it because you can't really get much more higher level than you are. That says to me that it's meant more for returning players, people who already have the game at its hardest difficulty (NG+) and are ready to take it further. edit: Overall though I really do think they pushed the enemy damage way too far in the name of making the game harder. Getting killed in 1 hit by anything when you are an appropriate character level at an appropriate VIT with appropriate physical defense is just crappy. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Nov 29, 2018 |
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Nov 29, 2018 06:17
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Cardiovorax posted:They're also the single two hardest bosses in the entirely Soulsborne series, in my opinion, so that may not be the most fair of examples to pick. In Dark Souls, I'd personally say that Gwyn measures up to the level of the DLC bosses just fine in terms of difficulty and is probably the closest equivalent to Artorias that you can get in any of the base games. I also struggled more with Maria and Lawrence than I did with anything in the vanilla. Like I said, on my first playthrough of Bloodborne I came out of the DLC battered by bosses who are super aggressive, with openings and pauses that are mercilessly short to the point of being vindictive, who have boatloads of health and can kill you in a few hits. Then I went through the vanilla end bosses and one shot them because they're all easy to dodge, leave nice long openings, won't charge you as soon as you back off, and have like 1/2 the health of the DLC bosses. I feel like Gehrman is actually harder if you try to parry him so maybe that worked in my favour because I'm terrible at parries in Bloodborne. In DS1, Gwyn is only hard if you don't parry him or exploit the geography, but maybe if you compare him without doing that then yeah he's pretty equivalent to Artorias. I find Manus harder than either tbh. DS2's vanilla end boss was a joke so there's no comparison. DS3's second DLC bosses (aside from that weird PVP one) were all significantly harder than the vanilla end boss. voiceless anal fricative fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Nov 29, 2018 |
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Nov 29, 2018 13:05
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quote:personally I think the DLCs are generally harder for the reason Lord_Magmar suggests. bike tory posted:In DS1, Gwyn is only hard if you don't parry him or exploit the geography, but maybe if you compare him without doing that then yeah he's pretty equivalent to Artorias. Basically all the Soulsborne DLC content is harder mechanically because, again, I'd say they're intentionally designed as postgame content and the enemy statistics reflect that, but in terms of being a pure skill challenge, I think only the last two Old Hunters bosses are actually significantly tougher than what you could find anywhere in their respective base games.
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Nov 29, 2018 13:40
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Oops, I misread a couple of posts because I was tired. Well I guess I owe credit to Cardiovorax then! CJacobs fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Nov 29, 2018 |
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Nov 29, 2018 13:43
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What exactly can you exploit about Manus, Artorias or Kalameet? I can't think of an "easy mode" option in any of those fights, you've got to just learn and exploit the openings in their attacks where you can. It's also not as though Gwyn is even hard to parry, like Orphan is in Bloodborne. The majority of his attacks are really heavily telegraphed and I think all but one(?) can be parried. voiceless anal fricative fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Nov 29, 2018 |
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Nov 29, 2018 14:36
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Not every boss has an easy mode exploit like that, but when they do, it's typically due to a developer oversight and not how difficult the fight was meant to be. I can't really put it any other way except to say that Manus fights like a video game boss while Artorias and Gwyn fight like people: aggressive, fast, in your face and without any recurring patterns or gimmick items like Manus' Amulet Of Protection Against Magic Missile. Gwyn's weakness being that he's easy to parry doesn't matter much if you the player aren't personally good at parrying stuff successfully, which I'm very much not. Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Nov 29, 2018 |
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Nov 29, 2018 14:49
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Orpha is hilarious easy to backstab though, although it requires you to either be playing Arcane and touch him with the tentacle or using the Threaded Cane, which is the fastest charge attack in the game. Parrying the Orphan can be awkward but in both phases he tends to rampage in one direction so if you line it up right you can really lay into his rear end. Also the spoilered boss is the one I was thinking of yeah, given that boss is pretty much the baseline version of both Maria and the Orphan for pretty cool reasons.
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Nov 29, 2018 15:21
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imo parrying gwyn is meant as more of a bonus for the skilled and inquisitive than a one neat trick also capra demon is a great fight (for ds1) you just gotta figure out how to kill the dogs real fast
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Nov 29, 2018 16:24
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It is, but its reputation for being a total bitch to fight is also pretty deserved. It's pretty much custom tailored to take away as many of your equalizing factors or player advantages as possible, without actually making the boss do anything more special than walking up and hitting you with a sword.
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Nov 29, 2018 16:30
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Lord_Magmar posted:Orpha is hilarious easy to backstab though, although it requires you to either be playing Arcane and touch him with the tentacle or using the Threaded Cane, which is the fastest charge attack in the game. Parrying the Orphan can be awkward but in both phases he tends to rampage in one direction so if you line it up right you can really lay into his rear end. The video contains content not shown yet in this LP. Anyway, about Dark Souls bosses. Most of them don't require a special technique to be made easy, they just require good armor. A lot of the bosses are not designed to handle characters with high poise and defense. For example, on my first playtrough, I meet the Capra demon with only light armor and lost badly. Then I returned with Havel's ring, Wolf Ring and Elite Knight armor set and he became a complete joke. Other bosses can better deal with poise and defense. However, Artorias and Gwyn can not. This can not be done in this game though since Bloodborne has neither poise nor good armor, at least not for the player.
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Nov 30, 2018 18:39
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I do wish this game had some kind of poise system, even if its effect was very minor for balance reasons. Being stumbled on every hit pretty much no matter what is super brutal, it makes getting stun locked a much greater possibility.
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Nov 30, 2018 21:25
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CJacobs posted:I do wish this game had some kind of poise system, even if its effect was very minor for balance reasons. Being stumbled on every hit pretty much no matter what is super brutal, it makes getting stun locked a much greater possibility. You could really tell the issue with poise when they basically carried out the combat system into Dark Souls III.
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Nov 30, 2018 21:33
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Jesus that Orphan fight in the above video is nuts. I love HeyZeusHeresToast, that guy is great.
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Nov 30, 2018 22:15
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CJacobs posted:I do wish this game had some kind of poise system, even if its effect was very minor for balance reasons. Being stumbled on every hit pretty much no matter what is super brutal, it makes getting stun locked a much greater possibility. Personally the only times I’ve been stunlocked involve the Yahar’gul Hunter Trio. Who I personally believe to be the worst hunter fight in the game anyway. Not to say it isn’t a problem with the game just not one I faced very often. Most of the time I was stunlocking NPC Hunters instead, and if poise was in and made them even harder to cheese out with the Cane or the BoM I would probably hate them even more. Also yeah you don’t need the cane it’s just the second fastest backstab in the game, so it’s the easiest weapon for that method. The fastest being the noodly appendage of Ebrietas. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Nov 30, 2018 |
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Nov 30, 2018 23:14
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CJacobs posted:Jesus that Orphan fight in the above video is nuts. I love HeyZeusHeresToast, that guy is great. If you haven't Before, check out some of LobosJr's Bloodborne challenge runs, such as : Bowblade ranged only Beast claw/rune (ng+6? Can't remember) Broccoli Man ng+ ng+7 fists only. He's quite good and is even entertaining. Doesn't talk as much lore in newer runs because he's talked a lot of lore, but its good stuff. Honestly my second favorite BB player, right behind ENB (because how not) and the eponymous CJacobs
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Dec 1, 2018 06:00
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I kinda like that armour in Bloodborne doesn't make a huge deal of difference. I guess it gives you more build variety which is nice, but the fact that most of your defense comes from levelling up not from armour kinda defeats the purpose ultimately.
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Dec 1, 2018 07:13
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Wasn't the poise stat in Dark Souls effectively broken due to a bug in the formula and didn't actually work at all? I don't think it could've made that much of a difference to anyone, taking that into account. Personally, I think people really overestimate how well heavy armor works. I did a light-armor dodgy sorcerer run, and a heavy-armor big shield smackdudes run in Dark Souls 3. They worked out effectively equally well, although the sorcerer was minimally more skill based and easier to kill when I wasn't paying attention. Unless you actively build a character around negating the specific weaknesses of their type of armor, i.e. lasting power or lack of mobility, they do have pretty well-defined strengths and weaknesses. But doing that costs you a very noticeable fraction of your potential offensive strength, so it's not like that comes for free, either. Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Dec 1, 2018 |
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Dec 1, 2018 09:43
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