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SlothfulCobra posted:Is there a good writeup on how 17th century plantations calculated the best rate at which to kill their slaves in order to maximize profitability? Didn't you just ask that here or was it maybe in another thread? e: found it, it was another thread I read and I am not having a stroke. Milo and POTUS fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Dec 6, 2018 |
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Dec 6, 2018 04:30
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18th century but https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3785167&perpage=40&pagenumber=339#post470128422
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Dec 6, 2018 05:04
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bewbies posted:I think I've asked this before but at what point could I have had a conversation with a historical English speaker? I mean, you can right now if you want. But if you're wondering the earliest that you, speaking the English you speak right now and they, speaking the English they speak, can have a conversation? You can probably have a written one in the 16th-17th century. You can read Shakespeare and the King James Bible right now, without a problem, after all, I assume. Spoken conversation, you're probably still going to run into dialect and accent issues, but it can be done. Earlier than that, maybe. But, here's an example. Here's the beginning of the biblical book of Mark from the King James Bible (1611) quote:The beginning of the Gospel of Iesus Christ, the Sonne of God, Some of the spelling might give you some problems, but not really, right? Here's the same from the Tyndale Bible (1526) quote:The beginnynge of the Gospell of Iesu Christ the sonne of God as yt is wrytten in the Prophetes: beholde I sende my messenger before thy face which shall prepared thy waye before ye. The voyce of a cryer in the wildernes: prepare ye the waye of the Lorde make his paches streyght. Iohn dyd baptise in the wyldernes and preche the baptyme of repentauce for the remission of synnes. And all the londe of Iurie and they of Ierusalem went out vnto him and were all baptised of him in the ryver Iordan confessynge their synnes. Iohn was clothed with cammylles heer and with a gerdyll of a skyn a bout hys loynes. And he dyd eate locustes and wylde hony and preached sayinge: a stronger then I commeth after me whose shue latchet I am not worthy to stoupe doune and vnlose. I have baptised you with water: but he shall baptise you with the holy goost. So you see the changes in just like 90 years. Here's Wycliffe's bible, same part, in 1395 quote:The bigynnyng of the gospel of Jhesu Crist, the sone of God. As it is writun in Ysaie, the prophete, Lo! Y sende myn aungel bifor thi face, that schal make thi weie redi bifor thee. The vois of a crier in desert, Make ye redi the weie of the Lord, make ye hise paththis riyt. Joon was in desert baptisynge, and prechynge the baptym of penaunce, in to remissioun of synnes. And al the cuntre of Judee wente out to hym, and alle men of Jerusalem; and thei weren baptisid of hym in the flom Jordan, `and knoulechiden her synnes. And Joon was clothid with heeris of camels, and a girdil of skyn was about hise leendis; and he ete hony soukis, and wilde hony, and prechide, and seide, A stronger than Y schal come aftir me, and Y am not worthi to knele doun, and vnlace his schoone. Y haue baptisid you in watir; but he schal baptise you in the Hooli Goost. Epicurius fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Dec 6, 2018 |
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Dec 6, 2018 05:28
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BalloonFish posted:ThisIsJohnWayne has already come up with what would be my first suggestion, although oldmachinepress details engines that are unusual/experimental in some way. Many of them never even took to the air, let alone reached production but they're interesting to read about. I already mined oldmachinepress for anything I found interesting so I'll check out your other suggestions. The AEHS links are exactly what I'm looking for so far, it's exactly the kind of technical and internal politics thing in interested in.
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Dec 6, 2018 06:20
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Epicurius posted:I mean, you can right now if you want. But if you're wondering the earliest that you, speaking the English you speak right now and they, speaking the English they speak, can have a conversation? You can probably have a written one in the 16th-17th century. You can read Shakespeare and the King James Bible right now, without a problem, after all, I assume. Spoken conversation, you're probably still going to run into dialect and accent issues, but it can be done. I feel like the late 14th century is the earliest I could go back and communicate successfully, though it would require a lot of gesticulation and repeating things. I can just barely read Chaucer without a translation, though even that takes a bit of practice and lots of notes are very helpful. Going back even to the early 14th century though and Middle English just becomes completely unintelligible. Like look at this quote from the Auchinleeck manuscript, produced around 1340: quote:Ŝerl him graunted his wille, ywis, This is apparently about Pope Gregory, but I can't make heads or tails of it. Maybe if I heard it pronounced out loud it would make sense, but I doubt it, I can make out a few phrases in their but can't string any of it together.
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Dec 6, 2018 06:29
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presumably the location in England you're having this conversation matters a lot, as well as the time. a lecture on tape once told me a presumably real story from sometime before the great vowel shift, can't remember when, of some London merchants getting shipwrecked in Kent and they can't even ask basic questions to the locals, it's way beyond a few comedic misunderstandings I don't know which areas' dialects made it into the language we're using right now, but some would, I think, be easier for us to understand than others
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Dec 6, 2018 06:41
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oystertoadfish posted:presumably the location in England you're having this conversation matters a lot, as well as the time. a lecture on tape once told me a presumably real story from sometime before the great vowel shift, can't remember when, of some London merchants getting shipwrecked in Kent and they can't even ask basic questions to the locals, it's way beyond a few comedic misunderstandings Yeah, the introduction to my edition of Canterbury Tales said all of his comedic characters had various absurd regional accents, all played up for effect like Apu from the Simpsons or something. All interpreted through Chaucer's own weird local dialect of course. Of course I couldn't notice it at all which is a pretty good indication of just how shaky my grasp of his language really is.
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Dec 6, 2018 07:18
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I just found out that France didn't get around to banning dueling until after WW2 , because the French dueling tradition preferred swords and people weren't dying often enough to make it into a public scandal, like with the rifled pistol duels of the UK and southern US. Apparently the last confirmed French duel was in 1967 , between two French politicians , after one of them talked poo poo and got hit, and someone filmed it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e68nuAcSuWQ "Defferre was a participant in the last duel in France that took place in 1967 when Defferre insulted René Ribière at the French parliament and was subsequently challenged to a duel fought with swords. René Ribière lost the duel, having been wounded twice." " Later, when Mitterrand became President, Defferre served as Mitterrand's Interior Minister from 1981 to 1984. He was the architect of the 1982 decentralization reforms. Town and Country Planning Minister until 1986, he died in office as Mayor of Marseille. "
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Dec 6, 2018 08:18
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It's  's Independence Day  To that end, does anyone have a good overview of the Hakkapeliitta in the 30yw? My recollection of the primary school lesson on them is basically "they existed".
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Dec 6, 2018 10:51
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Epicurius posted:I mean, you can right now if you want. But if you're wondering the earliest that you, speaking the English you speak right now and they, speaking the English they speak, can have a conversation? You can probably have a written one in the 16th-17th century. You can read Shakespeare and the King James Bible right now, without a problem, after all, I assume. Spoken conversation, you're probably still going to run into dialect and accent issues, but it can be done. I dunno I feel like everyone hates studying Shakespeare in highschool because it is hard to read as a modern english reader. Funnily enough I found the 1526 passage easier because my brain stopped trying to "correct" the differences in the first one and just went with the weird flow. the 1395 one was cool, because now I know what people mean when they talk about how they can "sort of" understand a language when they speak a similar one (I only speak english so I haven't experienced this except for random words in swedish films). I was kind of following what its saying even if I missed a few words in each sentence. Language is bizarre.
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Dec 6, 2018 11:43
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Ghetto Prince posted:the rifled pistol duels of the UK
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Dec 6, 2018 11:54
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Interestingly enough, I found it orders of magnitude easier to get the Pope Gregory one than any Shakespeare I've ever read. It reads like half english, half old-swedish. You can literally see old norse in there. Yep I'm  Seriously, I think 10% of the people in the milhist threads are swedish-ish Vi äro tusenden...
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Dec 6, 2018 11:56
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Falukorv posted:Been twice to Saxony, underrated place for sure (Sächsische Schweiz <3). But why does hey gal keep mentioning that they suck at war? I dont doubt it, but is it all from their 30 year war record or do they have a longer history of military failures? Only other Saxon war I can recall is during the northern war against my country where they got whooped as far as I remember. did you go to dresden neustadt? that's where i live when i'm in saxony HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 12:23 on Dec 6, 2018 |
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Dec 6, 2018 12:09
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i could totally understand the gregory one but i'm not going to tell any of you what it said 
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Dec 6, 2018 12:13
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Cythereal posted:As far as I understand it, Nazi Germany didn't emphasize artillery that much in their combat doctrine. They were big on combined arms with tanks, infantry, and close air support Basically, German 'artillery' in 1940 was a Stuka.
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Dec 6, 2018 12:26
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Just found this badass picture: Arthur Szyk, 1939.
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Dec 6, 2018 12:55
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Well I just want to show off now. By the way, it gets easier if you know the context of the fragment, which I found here: https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_461953_en.pdf Full text is here: https://auchinleck.nls.uk/mss/gregory.html Basically it's about a guy who wants to bang his sister (and she him). Ŝerl* followed those commands, certainly, That the knight had told to him. The rich barons Were called before him. Off all of his subjects, Before all, young and old He made his sister the chief and highest (who had given manyh sighs for him). And bitauȝt** her was the knight, Who was true in tongue and tale, To keep the lady well, In happiness and good health, The was ferly*** sorrow and sighing When they should go apart. Ŝerl would not dyen vpriȝt**** To nobody could he tell his cares. * I think this means "The Earl, but it could be his name. I've never come across it either as a name or a title, and google isn't helping. ** I have no idea what this word means *** I don't know what this word means, but from context maybe something like "truly" **** I would guess this means "deem it correct", but it's only a guess.
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Dec 6, 2018 13:01
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Ghetto Prince posted:Apparently the last confirmed French duel was in 1967 , between two French politicians , after one of them talked poo poo and got hit, and someone filmed it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e68nuAcSuWQ 
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Dec 6, 2018 13:21
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Mr Enderby posted:* I think this means "The Earl, but it could be his name. I've never come across it either as a name or a title, and google isn't helping. 1. Name that became a title, like Ceasar? 2. Without, old spelling. 3. Fairly, old spelling. 4. Right, old spelling. Without, as in missing her, and she's not there Fairly, in the meaning of truly kind of, I agree. Dying right, as in any of the various ideas that you can die with honour if you die in the rigth maner. He'd need her to hear his dying words.
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Dec 6, 2018 13:24
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Ardent Communist posted:Haha, I think number one rule of warfare for pretty much its entire history is have the war on the other guys territory. For plenty of good reasons. The Vietnamese had good allies, and a willingness to suffer for their goals. You can make a whole lot of omelets with those ingredients. i think those reasons break down when fighting an asymmetrical war against a global hegemonic power to some degree beholden to public opinion
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Dec 6, 2018 13:32
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Ardent Communist posted:Could go back to talking about the wagon forts, but that's more of a 15th century discussion. What's your favourite (to talk or learn about) war in the 17th century that isn't the 30 year war? eventually-poland-disintegrates level of huge
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Dec 6, 2018 13:34
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https://twitter.com/Suetonius_/status/1070496422670127104
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Dec 6, 2018 13:34
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HEY GUNS posted:they kept losing 30yw battles and frederick the great kicked their asses 100 years later, but i also just like to make fun of them Oh I see. Neustadt is where I lodged (and went out to drink). Charming borough, felt more like a regular place to live compared to the grand structures and shopping streets of the Altstadt. Took a few bicycle trips to the countryside, talking to Saxons with my rusty high school is somewhat of a challenge. Definitely easier in Rostock and Berlin. Sadly the fortress was temporarily closed during my visit.
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Dec 6, 2018 13:50
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SlothfulCobra posted:Is there a good writeup on how 17th century plantations calculated the best rate at which to kill their slaves in order to maximize profitability? You may want Accounting for Slavery. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DGJPVLL/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
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Dec 6, 2018 13:56
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Falukorv posted:Oh I see. Neustadt is where I lodged (and went out to drink). Charming borough, felt more like a regular place to live compared to the grand structures and shopping streets of the Altstadt. the only problem is whenever the elbe floods, festung dresden is the first to get it and yeah, saxon is a difficult (and entertaining) dialect
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Dec 6, 2018 13:57
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:the vietnamese learning is: I read Bernard B. Fall's "Street Without Joy" a while back and one of his conclusions was that having a "safe haven" was a huge part in the success of the various anti-colonial uprisings across post-war Asia - the North Vietnamese could always withdraw into Chinese borders, the North Koreans could always withdraw into Chinese borders, the Malayan insurgents could always withdraw into Thailand, the Viet Cong could always withdraw into North Vietnamese borders (and the US never really invaded the North to begin with), and this created a situation where even if the colonialist managed to occupy most (or all) of the "enemy territory", the revolutionaries could always rest, recuperate, train, and rebuild just across the border in relative safety.
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Dec 6, 2018 14:12
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Loezi posted:It's There is a reference to them in a series of books written in England at the time (printed i the 1630) called "The Swedish Intelligencer" that can be found somewhere online. I will post more when I have the time.
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Dec 6, 2018 15:22
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SlothfulCobra posted:Is there a good writeup on how 17th century plantations calculated the best rate at which to kill their slaves in order to maximize profitability? "Time on the Cross" is the seminal work on the subject; I'm honestly not sure what if any worthwhile scholarship has been done since then (I'm sure it has but I'm not familiar with it). It is focused almost entirely on the antebellum American south and not earlier periods so I'm not sure if this would even meet your needs. Spoiler: slavery was hugely profitable, and slaves had an incredibly high ROI. An advanced warning: "Time on the Cross" was written by economists, not historians, and is very...math-centric and will definitely read to the modern reader as pretty callous towards the ethics of slavery. Interestingly enough the authors wrote the book with the intent of dispelling the various mythologies (that widely persist even today) that blacks were stupid and lazy and promiscuous. bewbies fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Dec 6, 2018 |
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Dec 6, 2018 15:23
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Loezi posted:It's More later, but the short version of it is that the native Finnish cavalrymen serving under Torsten Stålhandske were called "hakkapeliitta", "haccapell" or something similar by him, this is mentioned by English officers who served with him at the time. Wether this name was used by anyone else or of any other units is not clear.
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Dec 6, 2018 15:28
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Speaking of the Battlefield Nazi singleplayer, I just played it and it's... actually not horrible? The story goes something like this (spoilers, obviously): The story centers around the crew of the eponymous "Last Tiger", who are a pretty cliched bunch: The highly decorated stoic veteran commander (the player character), the world-weary and irreverent driver, the traumatized and frightened loader, and finally the young gunner who is an ardent Nazi who reveres the commander. They're sent to fight a defensive action in a city on the Rhine (possibly Cologne, but not explicitly named) against the advancing US forces. In the course of that fighting they get separated from their Loader, only to later find him having been hanged by the SS for supposed desertion. It's also shown that those executions are going on while there's heavy fighting going on like three blocks over. In the end it becomes obvious that they are hopelessly outnumbered, and they attempt to retreat back across the Rhine. Just as they reach the bridge, it is blown up by the Germans in an attempt to halt the US advance, stranding them on the wrong side of the river. The explosion also collapsed the street they'd been driving on, causing the Tiger throw a track and become stuck fast. Once the dust settles, the commander spots the driver leaving the tank and walking away, presumably to surrender to the Americans. The commander pleads with him not to leave, but the driver tells him that they're all done, that it's all broken and there's no point left in fighting. He turns to leave, but is suddenly shot in the back by the gunner, who calls him a deserter and a coward. Some Americans arrive, drawing the gunner into a firefight while the commander ponders over the corpse of the driver. Finally, the commander discards the iron cross he'd been wearing, and rises to surrender to the Americans. The gunner, part horrified and part furious, turns around and shoots him dead. The end. So in terms of story, it actually didn't seem half bad (consider watching the cinematics on youtube, they're fairly short and decently well-done). But of course it severely suffers from the problem of trying to hammer a story-shaped peg into a shootmans-game-shaped hole. So between the cutscenes showing the complete futility of their fight, you have gameplay sequences that involve you blowing up dozens of Shermans left and right. To its credit, those sequences are never cast in a particularly positive or triumphant light, but they're still by their very nature kind of gratuitous. Still, on the whole it turned out not nearly as bad as it might have. 
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Dec 6, 2018 17:08
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It's very paint by the numbers both game play and story wise and nothing offends or sadly does anything new. The game play elements that force violence and spectacle undo the whole trying to send a vague message from the start. Video games etc. Stalingrad 1993 still does the collapse of a tight knit group of German soldiers who question and eventually get consumed by both the system and the war itself much better.
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Dec 6, 2018 17:12
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SeanBeansShako posted:It's very paint by the numbers both game play and story wise and nothing offends or sadly does anything new. The game play elements that force violence and spectacle undo the whole trying to send a vague message from the start. Video games etc. This but also Cross of Iron I think it's important for there to be stories from the German side, otherwise they get dehumanized and that makes us (allows us to) forget how evil creeps in on little cat's feet.  E: See also I was Nineteen (although that's a Soviet of German descent in the Red Army in April of 1945, similar themes though? Schadenboner fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Dec 6, 2018 |
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Dec 6, 2018 17:15
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I feel though if you are going to do that it's best to pick from units or vehicles that have this weird post war mythology that right wingers and nazi fanboys adore attached to them. The story could have easily been told with just a regular tank crew, or a group of called up or forced to the front Hitler Youth.
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Dec 6, 2018 17:19
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SeanBeansShako posted:It's very paint by the numbers both game play and story wise and nothing offends or sadly does anything new. The game play elements that force violence and spectacle undo the whole trying to send a vague message from the start. Video games etc. A low key crucially important scene in Stalingrad that makes the portrayal of the Germans so good is when they execute a group of civilians, including a boy that theyve come to like, by firing squad. They dont really want to do it but they follow orders because well, thats what they do. So while the movie works to humanize those German soldiers through their personalities, comraddery, and adversity , it also makes clear to the viewer that theyre also war criminals.
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Dec 6, 2018 17:26
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Meanwhile in Last Tiger sadly there are squads of harmless GI's running about you don't need to machine gun down but can and nobody says anything in your crew about it.
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Dec 6, 2018 17:29
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SeanBeansShako posted:I feel though if you are going to do that it's best to pick from units or vehicles that have this weird post war mythology that right wingers and nazi fanboys adore attached to them. The story could have easily been told with just a regular tank crew, or a group of called up or forced to the front Hitler Youth. The problem is that Wheraboos have constructed this Lost Cause-like mythology around almost all mechanical products of the Nazis*. It's difficult to find one that isn't widely thought to be ZOMG TEH BEST (whatever) EVAR!, for example the StG 44: by all reports it's not great and I've heard gun nerds say that the way it works is a complete evolutionary dead-end that no one uses because it's wrong and bad. But try to find a video game featuring Nazis that doesn't have it as the be-all-end-all gun. *: I think a lot of this mythologization ties into the West's new-found Cold War need to surreptitiously adopt a lot of the "faceless semi-Asiatic hordes" anti-Soviet memes of Nazi propaganda, as well as the wide audience that German memorists had in the West (which Glantz talks about).
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Dec 6, 2018 17:33
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Schadenboner posted:
This is true and Cold War calculations to paint the Soviets as our new enemy were a key reason for our early understanding of the Eastern Front but it didnt help that the Soviets buried just about absolutely everything they could about their own history of the war aside from the best propaganda elements of it. So all the West really had to go on was the German side.
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Dec 6, 2018 17:37
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The weirdest thing about The Last Tiger is it doesn't make sense chronologically to the rest of the game, as it comes with a content update rooted in early Blitzkrieg/Fall of France of the games content time line. I still think a story based on Dunkirk or a British light tank crew fighting a retreat with the French would have fit a lot more? Anyway, enough about that. I am now curious how Putin's Russia effects the attempts to address the issues buried by the Cold War?
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Dec 6, 2018 17:52
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SeanBeansShako posted:I am now curious how Putin's Russia effects the attempts to address the issues buried by the Cold War? That's a complicated question, owing to how the current leadership in America likes Putin for being an authoritarian kleptocracy hostile to liberalism.
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Dec 6, 2018 17:58
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Schadenboner posted:The problem is that Wheraboos have constructed this Lost Cause-like mythology around almost all mechanical products of the Nazis*. It's difficult to find one that isn't widely thought to be ZOMG TEH BEST (whatever) EVAR!, for example the StG 44: by all reports it's not great and I've heard gun nerds say that the way it works is a complete evolutionary dead-end that no one uses because it's wrong and bad. But try to find a video game featuring Nazis that doesn't have it as the be-all-end-all gun. The StG 44 isn't a great gun, but that's mostly in the context of what came a few years after it. I've fired one and it's heavy, uncomfortable, has surprisingly harsh recoil for an assault rifle, and is a little difficult to make hits with in full auto. But semi-auto and bolt-action rifles in large calibers like .30-06 and 7.92x57mm have these flaws worse. The StG 44 was a legitimate game changer for a soldier who got one in basically everything except pinpoint long range accuracy, prone shooting, and weight. In a video game, none of the flaws of the real rifle except recoil are going to be present so you're basically using a weapon a decade or two more advanced than the rest. The reason the StG 44 was an evolutionary dead end is because everyone quickly realized that you could do what it did in a simpler way for less money. The StG is overcomplicated and was designed in an extremely German manner rather than the ideal way to design an assault rifle, so while it was awesome up until 1945 it was almost immediately made obsolete by the AK-47 doing just about everything better for cheaper. There was no real way to make the StG 44 cheaper or better while still maintaining the characteristics and design that made it an StG 44, so it was discarded shortly after the war for better weapons and only really used by people who had no other alternative (like the Viet Cong or East German guards).
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Dec 6, 2018 18:07
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