|
Every time I've tried to look into oChangeling my end prognosis is "Banality is a really dumb mechanic and idea" and I've yet to see much to turn me away from this. It honestly seems to just boil down to "we the creatives are better because..." Like yes if Banality were literally capitalism that'd be great but it's not. It's smug 90's horseshit. If oChangeling were printed in the early-mid 2000's, it'd have a bit on how Apple is secretly supporting and helping the Changelings.
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 19:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 23:48 |
|
|
The combinations of each Path are fundamentally tied to the message of that Path, basically. Acanthus learn to see the world in terms of the narrative of fate and history - and in the understanding that they are outside both and can manipulate them. Fate and Time. Obrimos know that all existence is power and energy, magical or otherwise, and that it is their right and duty to command that existence. Forces and Prime. Mastigos know that selfhood is an act of will against a world of merged consciousness and being, and that all boundaries are illusions save those imposed by the self or others, so they must master their will to set those boundaries. Space and Mind. Moros know that all existence is temporary, and that all things will pass - and that every existence is a thing, that life being special is merely an illusion and arrogance, and that they can transform it with will. Death and Matter. Thyrsus know that everything is alive and striving, constantly, in a battle against each other and the world, and that they are the apex, existing as the ultimate space on the great chain of being. Life and Spirit.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 20:15
|
|
|
While I broadly agree, I think the actual Watchtowers are a little bit less intensely hubristic than those depictions; the Watchtower revelations are empowering, but they also speak to a holistic understanding, even a Wisdom beyond Fallen Wisdom, which the Fallen World disrupts and undermines. Like, Thyrsus understand the universal battle of life, but also the Thyrsus Awakening doesn't necessarily involve becoming an apex predator. The Awakening itself is about seeing the shape of the world. I can't imagine most Thyrsoi declaring a human being, even an Awakened one, 'the ultimate space on the Great Chain of Being' unless they're specifically Silver Ladder.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 20:23
|
|
|
It's not impossible that MMOs could be much more banal in the WoD, given they're probably made by Tellus Enterprises and even if not they're most likely soulless cash grabs riddled with micro-transactions where you grind for weeks for a tiny percentage increase to a single attack and you need to pay real money to actually level up. Like the worst aspects of EA and the shovelware phone games rolled into one. THEN you can have some enterprising group of nockers or whatever running an indie game studio as your counterpoint.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 20:40
|
|
|
Joe Slowboat posted:While I broadly agree, I think the actual Watchtowers are a little bit less intensely hubristic than those depictions; the Watchtower revelations are empowering, but they also speak to a holistic understanding, even a Wisdom beyond Fallen Wisdom, which the Fallen World disrupts and undermines. Okay, true. (Acanthoi totally do stand outside of fate and time and manipulate them as their basic thing, tho.)
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 20:47
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:Okay, true. (Acanthoi totally do stand outside of fate and time and manipulate them as their basic thing, tho.) Oh absolutely - the Acanthus model is Merlin or the Norns, witches and wizards who remove themselves from the core heroic narrative so as to be able to influence it, acting indirectly.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 20:50
|
|
|
Digital Osmosis posted:it might just be that I'm missing something. Would you mind expanding on the thematics you saw, Ferrinus? People have talked about this a lot, even recently, but it's the general idea that each Path represents a single cosmic principle that manifests in both an obviously measurable and an abstractly metaphysical way, such that the very fact that a given Supernal World exists actually teaches you something about the setting. So, for instance, Time is an obvious fact - things happen one after another, and what happened before affects what happens after, and while we can concretely determine what happened before we can only guess at what's coming. But, there's a leap of gnostic apprehension you can make here - all of those things spring from/allow for a conception of Fate, the idea that there's a coherent narrative at play behind all these sequential happenings that gives them meaning and guides their arc. So Arcadia is the realm of stories - in fact, it's the realm that allows there to be stories, period. If Fate were tied to Space or Life or something it wouldn't necessarily be nonsensical or dull, but it would imply a different underlying order to the universe. As well, we can learn from the inferior Arcana. Forces is weak in Arcadia precisely because in Arcadia it's not how many Newtons you can bring to bear that decides whether you can lift a castle gate, it's your heroic destiny. Crude physical analysis is inapplicable or at least of least importance there. There could be other inferior Arcana for Arcadia, but that one works well and lets us draw cool conclusions. ProfessorCirno posted:Every time I've tried to look into oChangeling my end prognosis is "Banality is a really dumb mechanic and idea" and I've yet to see much to turn me away from this. It honestly seems to just boil down to "we the creatives are better because..." This is what I've always believed, but now that we've made the connection between banality and capitalism we are suddenly equipped to perform a redemptive reading of Changeling: the Dreaming. We can run and play it better than its actual writers ever could! What gave me the flash of realization about this was the talk of whether being an IT guy is banal a page or two ago. Why is it banal? Isn't programming cool? Aren't you sort of solving puzzles? Isn't it an expression of deliberately cultivated skill, which- ohhhh it's because you're doing it for a wage.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 20:59
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:Every time I've tried to look into oChangeling my end prognosis is "Banality is a really dumb mechanic and idea" and I've yet to see much to turn me away from this. It honestly seems to just boil down to "we the creatives are better because..." When conversations like this happen it's very apparent to me why C:TD never really caught on.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 21:01
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:What gave me the flash of realization about this was the talk of whether being an IT guy is banal a page or two ago. Why is it banal? Isn't programming cool? Aren't you sort of solving puzzles? Isn't it an expression of deliberately cultivated skill, which- ohhhh it's because you're doing it for a wage. Speaking as an IT guy, it's banal because you spend 80% of your time dealing with tiny roadblocks caused by the fact that other people decline to have even a basic understanding of the machines that run literally our entire society and which they use all the time, and half of the rest of the time dealing with problems that are legitimately very difficult to solve.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 21:08
|
|
|
Changling Chat > Mage Chat Over the past day, I've smashed together a bunch of concepts for my Frosty's Revenge game. I created 20 character stereotypes giving each one 12 attribute points and 10 skill points along with special power. poo poo isn't balanced in the least, but it's fun. Characters are divided into 10 pairs and players will roll 2d10. The first gives them the 1-10 pairing, and the second is even or odd to finalize the selection. Take a look and realize why I am not a game designer. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yhL2XHOFrW2lYmFfEc6jfM2WG4eA-9JW
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 21:17
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:Speaking as an IT guy, it's banal because you spend 80% of your time dealing with tiny roadblocks caused by the fact that other people decline to have even a basic understanding of the machines that run literally our entire society and which they use all the time, and half of the rest of the time dealing with problems that are legitimately very difficult to solve. The remaining 20%, however, is you breaking through those roadblocks and feeling like the most amazing haxxorman coder ever.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 21:23
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:Speaking as an IT guy, it's banal because you spend 80% of your time dealing with tiny roadblocks caused by the fact that other people decline to have even a basic understanding of the machines that run literally our entire society and which they use all the time, and half of the rest of the time dealing with problems that are legitimately very difficult to solve. Customer Service, regardless of if you're tech support or not, is banal. I fortunately have an IT job where I don't have to do any tech support beyond explaining how my latest project works to other people just as competent and invested as I am, so IT isn't always going to be banal
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 21:27
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:The remaining 20%, however, is you breaking through those roadblocks and feeling like the most amazing haxxorman coder ever. Depends on your job. For a lot of programmers like 19% of the remaining time is actually substandard rush jobs crammed into an infinite crunch time that ensures a terrible product release. Maybe 1% is anything you can feel happy about. Maybe. Coding is one of the most soul crushing jobs out there, because nobody gives a gently caress about coders and you people never had a strong union culture to start with.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 21:46
|
|
|
PHIZ KALIFA posted:As the players were reoccupying the abandoned chantry I mentioned as to how an outbuilding had a chemistry lab "on par with what you'd see in a 1970s high school" implying that 1) they should Upgrade that Equipment and B) the supply closet is full of Explosions Waiting To Happen. No one ever thought to really take advantage of it, and I'm kind of bummed honestly! I was hoping someone would do something inadvisable with the rolls and rolls of magnesium ribbon. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 21:57
|
|
|
Yawgmoth posted:That is a drat shame because I bet if anyone went looking for them there'd be a box of mercury switches just hanging out in a closet, waiting to be used.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 22:18
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:People have talked about this a lot, even recently, but it's the general idea that each Path represents a single cosmic principle that manifests in both an obviously measurable and an abstractly metaphysical way, such that the very fact that a given Supernal World exists actually teaches you something about the setting. So, for instance, Time is an obvious fact - things happen one after another, and what happened before affects what happens after, and while we can concretely determine what happened before we can only guess at what's coming. But, there's a leap of gnostic apprehension you can make here - all of those things spring from/allow for a conception of Fate, the idea that there's a coherent narrative at play behind all these sequential happenings that gives them meaning and guides their arc. So Arcadia is the realm of stories - in fact, it's the realm that allows there to be stories, period. If Fate were tied to Space or Life or something it wouldn't necessarily be nonsensical or dull, but it would imply a different underlying order to the universe. I find building PCs to be a super fun and exciting hobby, both assembling them with my own two hands, the craftsmanship of it, and finding all the innumerable potential component combinations and how they can make almost every individual build unique to be really interesting. An ochangeling writer would probably think it was a horrible stressful soulless grind. It really does just come down to personal preference when it comes to banality, doesn't it? Which makes it fairly worthless, just like it always has been.
|
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2018 23:47
|
|
|
Kaza42 posted:Customer Service, regardless of if you're tech support or not, is banal. I fortunately have an IT job where I don't have to do any tech support beyond explaining how my latest project works to other people just as competent and invested as I am, so IT isn't always going to be banal The idea that Glamour is a habit of mind as much as it is some great cosmic force makes a lot of sense. Hell, it shouldn't even be (completely) a metaphor for wealth being hoarded by the Sidhe Percent. There is abundance and all you have to do is learn how to dip your hands and drink your fill.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 00:01
|
|
|
There are some 33,000 unaccounted for Cainite Vampires c. 2002. We have an approximate figure of 40,000 in existence at that time and factoring in bulk entries some 7,000 are known. But where this breaks down is that whoever wrote the 40k entry also states that there have only been some 40k that have died over the entire span of human history to that point. In itself, not a big deal, right? Until you remember that the Cappadocians (admittedly the most overpopulated clan at the time) had some 12,000 members imprisoned at Kaymakli (anywhere from half to two-thirds of the entire clan) at some point after the rise of Christianity (so we'll say c. 300AD). The rest of the clan has also died (almost totally, so for practical effects we'll assume it's 100% death rate among Cappadocians), putting Cappadocian totals alone at anywhere from (if they stopped reproducing (they didn't) after the feast of folly) 18-24,000. In that case a single clan would make up over half the entire death toll of all Cainite history and a quarter of all Cainites to have ever existed and there's no indication that the Cappadocians were ever that large a majority. There have been multiple mass die off events in Cainite history as well - the majority/'most' of Cainites active in 1350 (several thousand at a minimum) died off by 1500, for instance. This is why giving concrete numbers to nerds is a bad idea.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 07:01
|
|
|
Didn't a lot of the Ivory Kindred die off post colonization?
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 07:08
|
|
|
I just wanted to make a Fate/Forces pool shark, who, when he can't get by on luck, gives the balls an imperceptible nudge to make 'em do what he wants.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 07:12
|
|
|
nofather posted:Didn't a lot of the Ivory Kindred die off post colonization? Oddly enough, no. The majority of Africa's kindred are still Laibon outside of South Africa. There was a rise in lethality rate but also embrace rate to compensate, so while they individually died off the Laibon remained viable. This, of course, isn't quite born out in the actual representation stats because as far as White Wolf was concerned writing books set in Africa was Dumb until around 2000, with Hunter Survival Guide's Africa section, and then 2003. Asia's so much kewler, right? EDIT: Christ almighty the wraith part of the compiled world is a huge hassle. We're moving out of tens of thousands into literally millions. It's insanity. Loomer fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Dec 6, 2018 |
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 07:13
|
|
|
Loomer posted:Oddly enough, no. The majority of Africa's kindred are still Laibon outside of South Africa. There was a rise in lethality rate but also embrace rate to compensate, so while they individually died off the Laibon remained viable. This, of course, isn't quite born out in the actual representation stats because as far as White Wolf was concerned writing books set in Africa was Dumb until around 2000, with Hunter Survival Guide's Africa section, and then 2003. Asia's so much kewler, right? To be fair, do you really want to see what WW would have done with Year of the Dark Continent, or something equally cringey? I have 12 players in my one shot, and I randomly assigned character sheets today. I'm a bit disappointed that some of the sillier concepts like Anime Weeb or Internet Furry didn't go out, but we have a good cross section of skills and special powers, I think they might actually survive Frosty's revenge.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 08:03
|
|
|
I think I mentioned at the time that due to an off hand reference in Shoah to there being a certain number of Shoah necropoli I sat down and read the entire history of the holocaust, the pogroms, the massacres during WW2, and used established population ratios from the book for a selection of the worst and most notorious of those events. It was a really, really dark week and it's distasteful in the extreme to the point that I feel shame plugging the results into the combined ratio sheet. It's in the same spirit as the book itself, but still.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 09:02
|
|
|
PHIZ KALIFA posted:B) the supply closet is full of Explosions Waiting To Happen. i mean, this is still a true thing, waiting for you to exploit
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 09:18
|
|
|
Soonmot posted:I have 12 players in my one shot, and I randomly assigned character sheets today. I'm a bit disappointed that some of the sillier concepts like For the sake of everyone else NOT playing that character, I think that one's probably for the best.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 09:35
|
|
|
Another good example of where that 40,000 total dead figure breaks down. 1999's Sabbat Crusade cost at least 2,500 Sabbat 'lives', which would be six percent of all Cainite casualties in history and 3% of all the Cainites to have ever existed.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 09:45
|
|
|
well, when your population doesnt die of natural causes...
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 10:33
|
|
|
Loomer posted:Another good example of where that 40,000 total dead figure breaks down. 1999's Sabbat Crusade cost at least 2,500 Sabbat 'lives', which would be six percent of all Cainite casualties in history and 3% of all the Cainites to have ever existed. Is that mostly shovelheads?
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 13:46
|
|
|
Dawgstar posted:Is that mostly shovelheads? Yep, which is the core problem. 1994 also had over a thousand Sabbat deaths. The idea there have only ever been 80,000 cainites in existence really isn't made out unless mortality rates skyrocketed in the 90s (which to be fair, they did - just not to that extent) and it also proposes a stratospheric population explosion between 1999 and 2002 to compensate. The concrete death toll of the 1990s alone is in the 6300-6600 range, and while the 90s is a calamitous time for the kindred there's nothing presented in the setting to say it's 1/12th of the entire population in history dying off. Since vampires don't die of age and can in theory exist forever, it's the human equivalent of 8,560,000,000 dying. That's 8.56 billion. If there were around 35,000 (40,000 is presented as the peak of Cainite populations, IIRC) then it's 18% of the total population alive - the equivalent of over a billion people dying violently in the course of a single decade. Now in fairness, they are the Final Nights and it's the mass deaths that summon the Antediluvians. But what we don't see in the setting is the kind of existential terror and total panic that you'd get with that kind of devastation. Instead we see the primary concern being overpopulation, rather than the fact that 20% of the entire population just died off, and nearly a tenth of all vampires to have ever existed. EDIT: Actually, rechecking, even worse. Said Sabbat in 1999 were on a Path, which you don't get with shovelheads. These were vamps who'd been at it for at least a couple of years - not guys who didn't make it past their first night. Another 2,000 of the dead in 99 were Ravnos meat shields against the Kuei-jin, and while the war had heated up at that point there's no reason to believe that other years only saw a tiny fraction. If each year saw just 200 meatshields in India we'd be looking at another 2,000 - another 2% of the total Cainite population ever to have existed. Loomer fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Dec 6, 2018 |
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 14:21
|
|
|
I wonder if it might make the numbers make more sense to assume that any Cainite population total does not consider newly made vampires to count within it until a certain period after they're turned. (And then are counted in death tolls even before that.)
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 14:24
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:I wonder if it might make the numbers make more sense to assume that any Cainite population total does not consider newly made vampires to count within it until a certain period after they're turned. (And then are counted in death tolls even before that.) It'd fit with the observed fact that 15% of vamps with known embrace and death dates didn't make it to their first year.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 14:31
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:I wonder if it might make the numbers make more sense to assume that any Cainite population total does not consider newly made vampires to count within it until a certain period after they're turned. (And then are counted in death tolls even before that.) Yeah. I don't think the Sabbat bothers counting anybody who isn't post-Creation Rites.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 14:33
|
|
|
The core problem in applying that standard to the 40-40 figure is that it's an 'out of universe' one from a sidebar rather than an in-universe accounting, so it probably does still count the unlucky shovelhead who dies on night 2.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 15:49
|
|
|
Son of a Vondruke! posted:For the sake of everyone else NOT playing that character, I think that one's probably for the best. Internet Furry was the computer expert. Anime weeb was actually the best combatant because I gave them a katana.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 19:40
|
|
|
still waiting for my chance to make a weeb vampire from some bloodline that has a unique discipline so he can "use my bloodline technique"
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 19:49
|
|
|
Xinder posted:still waiting for my chance to make a weeb vampire from some bloodline that has a unique discipline so he can "use my bloodline technique" The Players and their Devotion that makes people think they're rad and impressive at martial arts / fine cuisine / sword katas. It doesn't actually make them good at any of those things, it just makes witnesses think they looked good.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 20:06
|
|
|
I Am Just a Box posted:The Players and their Devotion that makes people think they're rad and impressive at martial arts / fine cuisine / sword katas. It doesn't actually make them good at any of those things, it just makes witnesses think they looked good.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 20:22
|
|
|
I Am Just a Box posted:The Players and their Devotion that makes people think they're rad and impressive at martial arts / fine cuisine / sword katas. It doesn't actually make them good at any of those things, it just makes witnesses think they looked good. now i don't have to spend time going through all the bloodlines, because nothing is going to fit this stupid concept better than that. thank you. e: this is absolutely the kind of character who carries a katana, wears a trenchcoat, and has colored contacts with sharingans Xinder fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Dec 6, 2018 |
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 22:02
|
|
|
Xinder posted:now i don't have to spend time going through all the bloodlines, because nothing is going to fit this stupid concept better than that. thank you. The best part: they're Mekhet. They don't actually get any of the physical boosters in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 22:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 23:48 |
|
|
If I ever replay Masquerade, my next concept is a Malkavian who believes the antedeluvians were actually ancient aliens and that vampirism is actually a bioweapon.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2018 22:16
|
|
