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Commander Keene posted:He's talking to a kid who had a problem with the concept of, "I don't have any legs, can you walk a bit slower? The hat knows that gunkle was trying to ditch him and is taking it out passive aggressively. 
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Dec 8, 2018 05:13
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Ciaphas posted:after playing BotW through only once I feel this way about like 75% of Zelda-series items. Doesn't really bother me much, though i mean yeah, there's that. a lot of items in the games are just given a couple token little interactions beyond the glaringly obvious USE THIS HERE puzzles, so the ones that have a lot of cute little interactions like the cane of pacci are always welcome even if ultimately they're just another fancy key for a fancy lock.
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Dec 8, 2018 05:58
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The Cane of Pacci is definitely in that space of weird gimmicky items (I think TP's Spinner is generally the poster child for them) that aren't very useful outside the specific scenarios they're designed for. This one bothers me a bit less than others, mainly because they at least vary up the situations and what it's doing in them (they give you a decent variety of objects to flip, plus there's the bouncing out of holes, destroying pots at a distance, and that's just what we saw in this video although in fairness I don't think there's too much more). It does also have some minor niche combat uses - it's better at flipping the spiked guys than a shield is, for instance, and you can also remove Stalfos' heads with it. These aren't terribly useful functions, to be fair, but at least it does something. I can't remember if any other enemies have a reaction to it. Also, I think this boss' name is Gleerock. Like a Gleeok, but with rocks, you know? (If that's not the right name, it should be, but I'm pretty sure that's the official name.)
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Dec 8, 2018 06:02
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Johnny Joestar posted:i'd consider it more useful than the cane of somaria from oracle of ages, which purely did just exist for relatively boring puzzles and didn't have anything interesting going for it At least the Cane of Somaria in LttP had offensive uses as well, if you were willing to waste your magic for such a comparatively weak item.
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Dec 8, 2018 08:13
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Ciaphas posted:after playing BotW through only once I feel this way about like 75% of Zelda-series items. Doesn't really bother me much, though BotW's bombs are more useful than most Zelda-series games' entire inventories. You could easily make an entire game just about the bombs.
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Dec 8, 2018 10:02
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Torrannor posted:At least the Cane of Somaria in LttP had offensive uses as well, if you were willing to waste your magic for such a comparatively weak item. The Cane shots/throw a block at an enemy do decent damage to what they can hurt, it's just that's a bit limited. You can ruin Blind with it for example, but that's mostly a randomizer thing. I think Pacci's cane is the only key item I like in this game honestly. It's just so satisfying to flip things.
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Dec 8, 2018 14:13
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I like to imagine the Cane is just something Pacci whipped up after realizing that they were not very good at flipping food in the skillet in any of the old-fashioned ways, but damned if they weren't determined to make that grilled cheese sandwich no matter the cost
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Dec 8, 2018 14:28
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Torrannor posted:At least the Cane of Somaria in LttP had offensive uses as well, if you were willing to waste your magic for such a comparatively weak item. It's actually really handy against some enemy formations in the Ganon's Tower ascent, most of them Wizzrobes. It'll only hit 3 of the 4 but that's still three Wizzrobes down.
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Dec 8, 2018 19:49
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SatansOnion posted:I like to imagine the Cane is just something Pacci whipped up after realizing that they were not very good at flipping food in the skillet in any of the old-fashioned ways, but damned if they weren't determined to make that grilled cheese sandwich no matter the cost i love the story conceit of wizards using their Phenomenal Cosmic Powers to do really trite, trivial poo poo (or really powerful, dangerous poo poo for dumb reasons; see that kc green comic about wizards, shotguns, and morals) so this is now my headcanon
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Dec 8, 2018 20:42
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I'm late on this, but I want to comment on the mineral water from video 4. I think it's kinda bullshit; it's just a repeat of the usual "water plant, use it to climb" gimmick, but oh noes, this one (and only this one) requires special water. If they'd reused it 3, 4 times maybe, perhaps hidden some neat items or something behind it, sure. But using it once or (optionally) twice through the entire game? That feels to me like padding; wasting the player's time with an annoying fetch quest in the interest of adding a couple of minutes of playtime. And reading over that paragraph, it feels like pointless nitpicking after the fact. I'm half-tempted to delete it, but I think I am going to post it anyway just to stimulate discussion.
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Dec 9, 2018 00:11
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KieranWalker posted:I'm late on this, but I want to comment on the mineral water from video 4. I think it's kinda bullshit; it's just a repeat of the usual "water plant, use it to climb" gimmick, but oh noes, this one (and only this one) requires special water. If they'd reused it 3, 4 times maybe, perhaps hidden some neat items or something behind it, sure. But using it once or (optionally) twice through the entire game? That feels to me like padding; wasting the player's time with an annoying fetch quest in the interest of adding a couple of minutes of playtime. However, I tried replaying it a fourth and fifth time and both of those just fizzled out, the latest in Mt. Krenel, and I know exactly why. A lot of Minish Cap is almost needless busywork. The game play so smoothly that you don't notice it at first, but there is a LOT of backtracking, block pushing, floating, shrinking, growing and so on to be done that is just not that fun. Many, many "puzzles" in Minish Cap are almost painfully obvious, far more so than in the other games we've seen in this thread, and that means you know exactly what to do - you just...gotta do it. And that's often simply not as fun. Push something, shrink, activate another thing, go back, grow, go through the unlocked route - that's the template for so many things you do. The thing is, it's often quite clever in that there's a vast array of different things to push and activate and fiddle with, so much work put into making unique sprites, but after you've done it once the sheen is off severely. And you start noticing, or at least I do, that you're gonna spend the next three minutes not "solving" a puzzle but rather just "working" on getting through a room. And that's not fun! The game does have a lot of great moments. In fact, I think everything they want you to use the Cane of Pacci for in the dungeon is amazing, and some of the timing puzzles with the floating platforms are pretty challenging, require good timing, thinking on your feet, and are therefore fun. I enjoy all the uses the Gust Jar gets. I don't even mind Kinstone Fusion. Overall, though, I don't want to replay Minish Cap anymore, and I am this very moment replaying Oracle of Ages because that's always fun to me. There is a difference, and I think it really is down to how trivial Minish Cap often is and how much time you nevertheless have to spend to get that trivial poo poo out of the way.
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Dec 9, 2018 00:31
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I'm surprised Pacci's stick is getting so much grief. This is Zelda, a series all about filling your inventory with stuff to solve puzzles and maybe you'll use it for something else once or twice. They're not all going to be the hookshot or the seed shooter, most of them will be the blue candle. In this game, frankly, I think the Cane of Pacci is better than the gust jar. The jar feels more useful because they go out of their way to throw situations at you where you need it, but does throwing multiple rooms full of dirt at you really make the jar any better than the cane?
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Dec 9, 2018 08:15
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Ciaphas posted:i love the story conceit of wizards using their Phenomenal Cosmic Powers to do really trite, trivial poo poo (or really powerful, dangerous poo poo for dumb reasons; see that kc green comic about wizards, shotguns, and morals) so this is now my headcanon My favourite world concept is one which is so high-magic that business wizards would sell their name-brand flip-wands in supermarkets ("Magus Pacci's Patented Inversion Wand, now with 50% more charges!") and all cities are walled fortresses against the untamed and forgotten wilds because public-use portals/teleport magic is so commonplace that there's no reason to have inter-city roads.
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Dec 9, 2018 14:49
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MarquiseMindfang posted:My favourite world concept is one which is so high-magic that business wizards would sell their name-brand flip-wands in supermarkets ("Magus Pacci's Patented Inversion Wand, now with 50% more charges!") and all cities are walled fortresses against the untamed and forgotten wilds because public-use portals/teleport magic is so commonplace that there's no reason to have inter-city roads. Have you read the Hyperion series? It's scifi, not magic or stuff. They're good novels with an interesting plot. Basically, humans have colonized the galaxy and the "core worlds" are all easily reachable while you need lengthy spaceship trips for the outer colony worlds. The ships go near-lightspeed, meaning that for people on the ship it doesn't take all that long, but when they get out the universe will be 100 years older or whatever. Anyway, for the core worlds, there's this network of interplanetary instant portals, and most people need to use the public ones. They're like airport terminals where you just scan your ticket and a portal to your intended world will open and you step through. But they did everything imaginable with those portals. Like, there's a shopping street that goes through 10 worlds or whatever, every couple blocks there's a street-sized portal. And the very rich have houses with always-open portals in them, so that every room in their house is actually on a different world. They can watch the sunrise in one room, then walk to the next room and watch the purple sunset on another world 5 minutes later.
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Dec 9, 2018 15:49
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Truthkeeper posted:I'm surprised Pacci's stick is getting so much grief. This is Zelda, a series all about filling your inventory with stuff to solve puzzles and maybe you'll use it for something else once or twice. They're not all going to be the hookshot or the seed shooter, most of them will be the blue candle. I think Minish Cap's item problem can't be understood in a vacuum. Other games have had items that are a pretty blatant "this is the red key that opens the red lock" (the level 2 glove and mirror shield in LA are obvious examples). The issue is that those games had puzzle design outside of that, while in Minish Cap "use the red key on the red lock" is all there is to the puzzle and Ezlo will helpfully ask you "have you tried using the RED KEY on the RED LOCK?" as soon as you enter the room. A good question to ask is whether you have to think about how to use an item to solve a puzzle. Compare bombs in Minish Cap to bombs in Breath of the Wild: in Minish Cap bombs are almost always a key used to open a clearly marked door type (with the occasional "find the door from context clues" puzzle) while in Breath of the Wild bombs are almost always a puzzle element (what and when do you break? how do you get the bomb to it? do you need to hit a switch? in what order?). Minish Cap feels like an attempt to input a mix of old and new items into an increasingly rounded off and less understood "Zelda formula" without thinking about what makes the games appealing (combat, puzzles, exploration). Fortunately it seems like they realized this recently and we've had things like "what if we played with the formula" (Link Between Worlds) and "what if we threw out the formula" (Breath of the Wild).
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Dec 9, 2018 16:43
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Carbon dioxide posted:Have you read the Hyperion series? It's scifi, not magic or stuff. They're good novels with an interesting plot.
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Dec 9, 2018 18:04
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 Let's say there's, perhaps, too many.
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Dec 11, 2018 19:42
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The figurines are by far my least favourite mechanic in this game. There are things I like about them (e.g. there's a lot of charm in the character names and text, they clearly put a lot of effort in there), but there are so many little irritating aspects to them that combine into something incredibly frustrating overall. I'm sure savestates mitigate a fair amount of it, but not enough; it's utter hell to complete on the actual console. I think it's mainly a numbers issue. We started to see in this video the huge numbers of shells the game tends to hand out in treasure chests and the like (it's not at all uncommon to see 50, 100, or 200; I don't remember if there are smaller amounts off the top of my head), and you have a maximum capacity of 999. That sounds like a lot, but it fills up really fast, and if you're not keeping on top of it and making sure you're going back to town to use them, a lot of those chests will go to waste (and shells are probably the game's favourite minor reward to throw at you). To add insult to injury, if you wanted to use them efficiently, you'd save your shells until late in the game; the more figurines available to you, the higher base % you get and the fewer shells it costs to increase, and new figurines get added to the pool as you progress in the game (to make matters worse, there are several that don't unlock until postgame). But, of course, you can't do this. YMMV, but for me this made it so that using shells was always a feel-bad moment. And the actual process of using them is just so goddamn tedious, even disregarding you have to trade off gambling with RNG and spending more time mashing through text boxes, versus grinding for more shells because even with how many the game throws at you, it's never enough. It'd probably be fine if they were separate from other collectibles (like they were in Wind Waker), but one of the rewards for 100% figurines is a heart piece. That's just a baffling design decision to me. At least (I think) it lets you get that one without the postgame ones, so you can have it for the final boss, unlike another bizarre upgrade in this game.
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Dec 11, 2018 20:59
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I have to agree with one thing you guys said, there is so much stuff to explore in the town. It's amazing. I love the little parallel society the city minish erected here. The town has a lot of atmosphere, it really feels alive.
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Dec 11, 2018 21:35
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The figurines are one of the big hurdles for 100% speedruns of this game since, as mentioned, you get a heart piece for collecting all the figurines. And you need all of those heart pieces to get the Mirror Shield from Big Goron which is your reward for 100% the game (which is a too little too late reward if you ask me). At least until a certain runner (I want to say Toadswoot) figured out how to manipulate it. The RNG in this game is incredibly heavily procedural and based off of player actions. So he got an emulator and figured out how to get to the figurine shop with a specific RNG, and then knowing that RNG value he would swing his sword to progress the RNG to the next value to guarantee he'd get a new figurine each time. So instead of an utter nightmare that made the idea of 100% runs a joke, he ended up with 20 minutes of pull lever-pull lever-pull lever-swing sword-pull lever-swing sword-swing sword etc. at the end of a run.
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Dec 11, 2018 23:11
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I think that just requires beating the game, not getting 100%, because I know I've had it and I've never even come close to getting the heart piece from the Cucco-catching game.
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Dec 12, 2018 01:58
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 So much about this must be Ezlo's fault.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:20
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While I'm enjoying the game and it looks like fun on the whole, the kinstones thing looks frankly awful. A billion characters to fuse with, with 99% of them giving meaningless rewards, does not look like fun to me.
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Dec 14, 2018 22:31
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Serifina posted:While I'm enjoying the game and it looks like fun on the whole, the kinstones thing looks frankly awful. A billion characters to fuse with, with 99% of them giving meaningless rewards, does not look like fun to me. I can totally imagine it being turned into some kind of street-pass type mechanic if this was on DS, which would have made it even more annoying.
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Dec 14, 2018 22:44
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I'll give Ezlo a pass on reading the inscription in the sanctuary, because it's old and he may have needed to translate it. And what better use for a Lilliputian duck hat wizard than translating ancient text? As for the sentience of the duplicates created by the Picori Sword, well... 
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Dec 15, 2018 02:58
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Am I the only one who thinks of the Dumple because of the name Gunkle?
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Dec 15, 2018 04:15
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I'm pretty sure that's intended, actually.
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Dec 15, 2018 04:32
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This is obviously the dumple origin story.. 
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Dec 15, 2018 04:59
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I forget, was Dumple Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword? I remember PizzaJoe being Majora's Mask (and later Wind Waker HD). I guess I need to go back and re-watch the old SHN LPs. Still waiting on TP HD, Thorn! 
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Dec 15, 2018 05:17
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I don't know if you've played it but the gag with Ezlo not knowing what to wear to the castle reminds me of the incredibly cute and charming Fantasy Life on the 3ds - your companion is a small butterfly who isn't allowed into the castle to see the king because no one will take them seriously, and your character cannot enter because he's not dressed appropriately - to solve both problems, the butterfly lands on your collar and flares it's wings, looking just like a bow tie so you can both get in. 
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Dec 15, 2018 05:42
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Commander Keene posted:I forget, was Dumple Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword? I remember PizzaJoe being Majora's Mask (and later Wind Waker HD). I guess I need to go back and re-watch the old SHN LPs. Still waiting on TP HD, Thorn! Hey Hey was Twilight Princess. So will we be getting BurgerJim for TP HD, Thorn? 
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Dec 15, 2018 05:46
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Commander Keene posted:I forget, was Dumple Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword? I remember PizzaJoe being Majora's Mask (and later Wind Waker HD). I guess I need to go back and re-watch the old SHN LPs. Still waiting on TP HD, Thorn! Hey Hey was Twilight Princess, Dumple was Skyward Sword. gunkle's name actually just comes from the word "gunk", but the Linkle version. TP HD will happen, just not sure about the co-commentary situation.
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Dec 15, 2018 05:49
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ThornBrain posted:Hey Hey was Twilight Princess, Dumple was Skyward Sword. gunkle's name actually just comes from the word "gunk", but the Linkle version. And Hey Hey was obviously inspired by Malon's horse in this game saying something that sounds like hey-hey.
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Dec 15, 2018 10:16
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Why does Malon have a little chime every time you talk to her?
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Dec 15, 2018 15:50
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GunnerJ posted:Why does Malon have a little chime every time you talk to her?
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Dec 15, 2018 16:11
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Serifina posted:While I'm enjoying the game and it looks like fun on the whole, the kinstones thing looks frankly awful. A billion characters to fuse with, with 99% of them giving meaningless rewards, does not look like fun to me. Excluding a couple kinstone fusions needed to progress the plot but require specific kinstone pieces you get through normal progression, it's all entirely optional. It's been forever since I played Minish Cap, but I remember just ignoring the system entirely after a while because it did nothing for my game experience. I can accept a time-padding mechanic so long as I can just not do it if I don't want to.
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Dec 15, 2018 16:32
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Commander Keene posted:It's the first three notes of Epona's Song. And her idle animation is pretty much just her constantly singing it. She's got some serious lung control. Nowhere near 'gunkle spamming his sword button' though.
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Dec 15, 2018 23:03
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 Well isn't that a slap of thread-relevant nostalgia.
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Dec 18, 2018 18:03
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"You get nothing for saving him from possession now" - gets 100 mysterious seashells Have to agree that the Minish existing to serve humans is strange and off-putting. But I love the amount of work the devs spent on making all those Minish towns and communities. It feels like said Minish towns have more rooms in total than all houses in LttP, Link's Awakening and the Oracle games together. And those rooms are more varied than the houses in said game as well.
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Dec 18, 2018 18:40
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Torrannor posted:"You get nothing for saving him from possession now" - gets 100 mysterious seashells
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Dec 18, 2018 19:23
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