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TOOT BOOT posted:Judas betraying Jesus seems weird to us perhaps but so do any number of incidents in the Bible where people were confronted with the supernatural and still made bad decisions. Judas can get in line with Pharaoh, yeah. 'Surely he's just about out of plagues.'
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Dec 14, 2018 02:27
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Cythereal posted:I'm wondering if it wasn't a sin, though, and was merely recorded that way because the people who wrote the Gospels didn't talk to Judas - or perhaps did and didn't believe him. Well, I mean, sure, any of that's theoretically possible, but at that point we're just getting into "wouldn't it be neat if?" speculation, right? Like, we have these four documents which purport to be truthfully presenting an actual series of events, and which were accepted as truthful accounts of recent events by people who knew people who knew the authors, or at least people who knew people who said they knew the authors, and on the basis of that, well, maybe he was greedy, maybe he was not in control of his actions at all because he was possessed by a demon, maybe he wanted to bring about the overthrow of the Romans because Jesus seemed to be dawdling, or maybe we have no idea because the people who wrote the Gospels couldn't talk to Judas since he was, at that point, dead. (Or at that point he had run away and let everyone believe he was dead, which for purposes of getting his side of the story is the same.) So if we suggest that what happened is that Jesus told Judas to do it, and we just don't know that because Jesus never said so to the apostles and Judas let everyone believe he'd committed suicide, we're still looking at Jesus telling Judas to sin, because: Judas went secretly to the authorities and arranged to be paid for leading soldiers to Jesus; Judas actually did lead soldiers to Jesus; Judas then vanishes from the account. If I ask someone to kill me, or for that matter even to maim me, that's a sin, because I'm asking someone else to sin (murder and maiming both being wrong). If they agree, that's a sin (it's wrong to agree to do a wrong thing), and if they follow through, that's wrong (it's wrong to do a bad thing), even if they fail. I guess I just don't see how "leading soldiers to arrest someone in secret in the middle of the night, when that person is innocent" isn't a bad thing to do?
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Dec 14, 2018 02:34
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TOOT BOOT posted:Judas betraying Jesus seems weird to us perhaps but so do any number of incidents in the Bible where people were confronted with the supernatural and still made bad decisions. Oof. Good point, and on into present day I believe the God the Father Almighty, maker of space and time and nebulas and poo poo, but I’d still rather ignore all of Proverbs/Ecclesiastes, drown myself in hedonism, and ignore the Expert (creator) on humanity. 
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Dec 14, 2018 02:35
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zonohedron posted:Well, I mean, sure, any of that's theoretically possible, but at that point we're just getting into "wouldn't it be neat if?" speculation, right? Like, we have these four documents which purport to be truthfully presenting an actual series of events, and which were accepted as truthful accounts of recent events by people who knew people who knew the authors, or at least people who knew people who said they knew the authors, and on the basis of that, well, maybe he was greedy, maybe he was not in control of his actions at all because he was possessed by a demon, maybe he wanted to bring about the overthrow of the Romans because Jesus seemed to be dawdling, or maybe we have no idea because the people who wrote the Gospels couldn't talk to Judas since he was, at that point, dead. (Or at that point he had run away and let everyone believe he was dead, which for purposes of getting his side of the story is the same.) Like I said, I wonder. Strange as it might sound for a Christian to say, I'm fond of this saying: Believe those who say they seek the truth. Doubt those who say they've found it. 
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Dec 14, 2018 02:38
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Cythereal posted:Like I said, I wonder. Strange as it might sound for a Christian to say, I'm fond of this saying: Believe those who say they seek the truth. Doubt those who say they've found it. I'm not going to doubt someone who says they're certain that JFK died from suffering a gunshot wound to the head, just because they're certain. I'm not going to believe someone who says they're seeking the truth about vaccines and autism, even if I have no doubt that they're sincerely seeking the truth. I don't think history classes need to teach that there's serious disagreement over whether or not humans ever landed on the Moon. The only reason to treat a discussion of things that happened to people mentioned in the Gospels as different is if those accounts aren't to be accepted as at least trying to present an accurate account of actual events. (I would ordinarily say "true story" but there are people who think the Gospels can "be true" without an actual historical person named Jesus actually living in Judea and actually being executed by crucifixion.) Did Judas really betray Jesus to the authorities? The Gospels say he did, and you and I seem to agree that this is actually a thing that happened. Why did he do it? The Gospels don't say for sure, but suggesting that Jesus instructed him to do so certainly seems like suggesting that Jesus not only would but did tell someone to sin.
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Dec 14, 2018 03:01
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zonohedron posted:I'm not going to doubt someone who says they're certain that JFK died from suffering a gunshot wound to the head, just because they're certain. I'm not going to believe someone who says they're seeking the truth about vaccines and autism, even if I have no doubt that they're sincerely seeking the truth. I don't think history classes need to teach that there's serious disagreement over whether or not humans ever landed on the Moon. You're still badly missing my point, so let's just drop it. 
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Dec 14, 2018 03:03
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Rainbow Pharaoh posted:Hail Mary, full of grace, punch the devil in the face. 
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Dec 14, 2018 03:53
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Cythereal posted:Personally, I've always wondered if Judas didn't do what he did because Jesus asked him to, that what happened was necessary and Jesus knew it. I've heard that Coptics hold Pilate as a saint for the same reason, that Pilate had to condemn an innocent man to death because it was God's plan, and I wonder if the same holds true for Judas. How terribly that must have hurt, to seemingly betray Jesus Christ to his death because that is part of Jesus' plan. I've always found that philosophically Judas and Pilate hit me strangely when predestination is considered, but then predestination vs free will is always a rough point for me.
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Dec 14, 2018 06:36
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if you're embezzling and you don't want your boss to find out...you could just have him killed?
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Dec 14, 2018 07:38
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HEY GUNS posted:if you're embezzling and you don't want your boss to find out...you could just have him killed? Do you know of any cases where this happened with your mercs?
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Dec 14, 2018 07:47
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Do you know of any cases where this happened with your mercs? no but i did see one officer hire an assassin to whack another officer, i do not remember why
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Dec 14, 2018 08:00
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Cythereal posted:Not to mention how many times the Bible's been translated over the years. I don't know how it is in English, exactly, but I suppose it might be even better than in Finnish, which means the above strengthens the Bible's authority considerably. The Bible is not translated from translations but from the earliest possible texts, using the best current understanding, which is way better than it used to be in the past two millenia, except for those earliest accounts.
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Dec 14, 2018 12:24
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I heard one of the people who've been translating the Bible into Norwegian recently speak on this. She said that while they're careful to look at the older manuscripts and make sure there's nothing downright wrong, they also take tradition into consideration. And it really is hard because many concepts in Greek or Hebrew are hard to find equivalents for that make sense and are known to us. She picked one example which was the Persian kings' palace, where translators had used a word that made you think about an estate or impressive farm rather than the enormous palace complex that archaeology has shown that the real thing was. They also cooperated with poets for the old testament. With the new testament it's trickier since it isn't really that poetic, the writers were very proficient in Greek but not first language speakers, and I suppose they were were going for mass appeal as well. After their translation one guy was unhappy and made his own more literal translation.
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Dec 14, 2018 13:16
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translating in general is a goddamn nightmare, especially if there are words with an emotional "flavor" that the words you're translating them into don't have
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Dec 14, 2018 13:20
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pidan fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Dec 14, 2018 13:31
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HEY GUNS posted:translating in general is a goddamn nightmare, especially if there are words with an emotional "flavor" that the words you're translating them into don't have
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Dec 14, 2018 16:05
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I first really felt the problem of translation when I read translations of the Pange Lingua that just... didn't seem right compared to Edward Caswall's translation from the 1800s. On the night of that last supper, seated with his chosen band He, the paschal victim eating, first fulfills the law's command Then as food to his disciples, gives himself with his own hand vs At the last great supper lying, circled by his brethren's band Meekly with the law complying, first he finished the command Then, immortal food supplying, gave himself with his own hand (If nothing else, I like Caswall's translation because you can hear it as "Jesus, eating the Paschal lamb, fulfills the law's command" or "Jesus, the Paschal Victim, by eating fulfills the law's command", even though that wordplay isn't present in the Latin and the translation that Magnificat uses in its missals is more faithful to the Latin.)
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Dec 14, 2018 16:41
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smdh that you all didn't learn Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew before becoming Christians
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Dec 14, 2018 18:30
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Elaborating a little more on the method and mode of my spiritual beliefs that lead me to make those comments: I came to faith in large part by constantly questioning myself, what I believe, and what I understand of the world. To me, the day I stop asking questions is the day I die - either a physical death, or my soul dies the death of the spirit, passing into stagnation. To me, the search for truth is the fundamental reason for existence. I do happen to believe in Christianity, so I believe that God created us one and all with the desire to seek Him, and I think that by God's design the spiritual impulse is built into the human schematic. For me, it would be intellectually dishonest to say I'm absolutely certain of my beliefs, even in the most essential aspects of Christianity. I believe it's intellectual honest and integrity to admit that I may be wrong. The truth about God may well be Orthodox belief, or Coptic belief, or even Islamic or Judaic. The truth might not be Christian at all, perhaps the Buddhists or Hindus or one of the pagan groups has the right of it. Maybe it was a group gone and forgotten long ago. Maybe it's a group that won't arise for centuries yet. Perhaps the atheists or deists are right and the whole question is moot anyway. I believe what I believe because I find the evidence convincing and the emotional appeal persuasive. That is ultimately a subjective statement, and individual to me. I do not claim to know what the truth is, if there even is a singular truth. But I do not think any of this makes my faith weak. Acknowledging all of these arguments and possibilities, I believe nevertheless. 
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Dec 14, 2018 18:35
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Pellisworth posted:smdh that you all didn't learn Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew before becoming Christians I tried really hard to learn Greek and failed, same as I failed to learn Russian, and that made me realize I had to get off the Biblical Scholar track and head for Theology because I can at least learn languages that have the same alphabet I'm used to. The extra visual step is very hard on me.
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Dec 14, 2018 18:41
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Night10194 posted:I tried really hard to learn Greek and failed, same as I failed to learn Russian, and that made me realize I had to get off the Biblical Scholar track and head for Theology because I can at least learn languages that have the same alphabet I'm used to. The extra visual step is very hard on me. I'm pretty good with languages, I honestly should try and teach myself one of the Biblical languages at some point. I just never found time, so I'm stuck with English and broken Spanish 
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Dec 14, 2018 18:54
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Pellisworth posted:I'm pretty good with languages, I honestly should try and teach myself one of the Biblical languages at some point. I just never found time, so I'm stuck with English and broken Spanish If I could snap my fingers and know ancient greek I would be so happy.
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Dec 14, 2018 23:34
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Anyone have recommendations for 'international' (meaning non-US) Christmas themed food (for a potluck)?
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Dec 15, 2018 00:44
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StashAugustine posted:Anyone have recommendations for 'international' (meaning non-US) Christmas themed food (for a potluck)? Do you guys have pigs in blankets? Little tiny sausages wrapped in bacon? They're big here.
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Dec 15, 2018 00:54
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Liquid Communism posted:I've always found that philosophically Judas and Pilate hit me strangely when predestination is considered, but then predestination vs free will is always a rough point for me. It is kind of interesting to wonder what would have happened if Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus. Would Jesus have looked for some other way to get arrested?
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Dec 15, 2018 01:02
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Samuel Clemens posted:It is kind of interesting to wonder what would have happened if Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus. Would Jesus have looked for some other way to get arrested? I don't think he had to try very hard. He had, according to the synoptic gospels, attacked people in the Temple less than a week before.
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Dec 15, 2018 02:42
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HopperUK posted:Do you guys have pigs in blankets? Little tiny sausages wrapped in bacon? They're big here.  Where I'm from "pigs in a blanket" refers to sausages or hot dogs wrapped in bread dough and baked. Which, for Christmas... StashAugustine posted:Anyone have recommendations for 'international' (meaning non-US) Christmas themed food (for a potluck)? Make tamales, they're a very common food for Christmas-time in Mexico, Central America, and the Southwest US. They're also not so exotic or spicy that you'll offend people with boring palates. HEY GUNS might point you towards some recipes, he's from the Southwest originally. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Dec 15, 2018 |
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Dec 15, 2018 02:59
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Get some KFC. Apparently it's huge in Japan.
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Dec 15, 2018 03:07
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Pellisworth posted:
Sounds delicious for breakfast.  quote:Make tamales, they're a very common food for Christmas-time in Mexico, Central America, and the Southwest US. They're also not so exotic or spicy that you'll offend people with boring palates. HEY GUNS might point you towards some recipes, he's from the Southwest originally. My family was infiltrated by Scandinavian cuisine (ironically, not from the side of my family that actually is Scandinavian), so we traditionally do a smorgastarta for Christmas. Put one of those things on the table in the morning and it's usually gone by dinnertime. https://i.imgur.com/mfGe83J.mp4
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Dec 15, 2018 03:08
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[quote="Pellisworth" post=""490729219"] Make tamales, they're a very common food for Christmas-time in Mexico, Central America, and the Southwest US. They're also not so exotic or spicy that you'll offend people with boring palates. HEY GUNS might point you towards some recipes, he's from the Southwest originally. [/quote] Cool, tamales are good and I didn't realize they were a Christmas thing. Thanks!
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Dec 15, 2018 03:13
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StashAugustine posted:Cool, tamales are good and I didn't realize they were a Christmas thing. Thanks! Well they're a year-round food but also a Christmas thing, yeah. Make a few different types and serve with a couple salsas and I'm sure it'll be a hit!
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Dec 15, 2018 03:16
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If you need a side dish, a swede casserole is one of my favourite parts of Christmas.
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Dec 15, 2018 11:04
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StashAugustine posted:Anyone have recommendations for 'international' (meaning non-US) Christmas themed food (for a potluck)? When I was growing up, after we came home from Midnight Mass my family always had this: slice of orange, slice of hardboiled egg, slice of the best sausage you can buy, layered one on top of the other. Eat with Spumante. You could also try Strufoli, but they're difficult to make and the one year my mom tried it ended with honey all over the kitchen. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Dec 15, 2018 |
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Dec 15, 2018 12:13
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HopperUK posted:Do you guys have pigs in blankets? Little tiny sausages wrapped in bacon? They're big here.
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Dec 15, 2018 12:16
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I'm excited for Christmas. For some reason Christmas mass especially almost always makes me feel like the world is going to be okay.
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Dec 15, 2018 13:59
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Night10194 posted:I'm excited for Christmas. For some reason Christmas mass especially almost always makes me feel like the world is going to be okay. Spoilers: it will be, eventually
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Dec 15, 2018 15:56
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HEY GUNS posted:Our pigs in blankets are hot dogs wrapped in bread dough and baked, and they are a traditional dish for children. Honestly I'm surprised the British missed out on a chance to wrap meat in dough
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Dec 15, 2018 17:44
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Skipping posts to request prayers for the health of my mom in breast cancer matters. Also, pray for me to not be a poo poo son in this.
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Dec 15, 2018 17:54
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It's more of s snack/dessert, but I've always liked making candied orange peels around the holiday season.
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Dec 15, 2018 17:54
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Also, I've watched that gif way too many times. It's mesmerizing.
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Dec 15, 2018 17:58
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