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peer
Jan 17, 2004

this is not what I wanted
I think the goon consensus on attila is that it's better or at least more interesting than Rome 2 in terms of gameplay (unless you really like phalanxes) but poorly optimised and runs/looks like poo poo. If you're interested in the period and/or enjoy watching crowds of filthy, hairy men hack at each other then go for it

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John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
Yeah, that's basically it. It's a cool game! I wish it didn't run like dogshit so that I could actually stand to play more of it.

Chortles
Dec 29, 2008

Hentai Jihadist posted:

Hordes are the funnest factions by far. Nothing but non stop battles and loot
Mind you the horde aspect may not last long; besides regular conquering Liu Bei can spend some of the Unity gauge/meter to claim Han Empire-held territory, and if you helped out Tao Qian against Cao Cao's Xu province campaign then "When Tao Qian dies (he is a rather old man already at the start of the game), his followers will offer to join Liu Bei, which will effectively confederate Tao Qian with Liu Bei."

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo
Also hordes blow chunks in Warhammer

Frog Act
Feb 10, 2012



I really wanted to get into Attila but found its citybuilding mechanics a little bit more obtuse and frustrating than I enjoyed, especially in the Charlemagne campaign. I'm glad they brought back some interesting stuff from Medieval II and new stuff like Church lands but its all hard to navigate and poorly conveyed to the player. I finally have a computer that can run it now and that was a huge part of the problem for me so maybe its worth giving another try.

Azran
Sep 3, 2012

And what should one do to be remembered?

Chortles posted:

Poorly afaik relative to the other four classes; I think I saw Jia Xu manage to get killed in an Ambush of Sun Ren video when the player charged Sun Ren and her shock cavalry at Jia Xu's flank (he was with a pair of Archer Militia in/behind the treeline) only for the AI to plunge Jia Xu towards/into the roadside melee where Sun Quan had already thwarted his infantry charge.

Oh yes, I remember now. Man, I loved Sun Ren's shouts in that battle.

underage at the vape shop
May 11, 2011

by Cyrano4747
I see Attila has bought back the shogun 2 feature of letting you make a coffee and lunch in a loading screen

Mr Luxury Yacht
Apr 16, 2012


underage at the vape shop posted:

I see Attila has bought back the shogun 2 feature of letting you make a coffee and lunch in a loading screen

Do you have it on an SSD?

All the total war games since Shogun 2 have loaded in like 10 seconds on an SSD vs. five minutes per battle on an older drive.

Communist Thoughts
Jan 7, 2008

Our war against free speech cannot end until we silence this bronze beast!


Edgar Allen Ho posted:

Also hordes blow chunks in Warhammer

Nah theyr the best factions in warhammer. Everyone else has to spend 30 turns building infrastructure while hordes go on vacation and don't worry about upkeep.

By which I mean beastmen. Beastmen are the best faction. Chaos kinda suck but that's cause they have bad horde mechanics.

Beastmen are pretty much the only faction in Warhammer that can get around the extreme skittishness of AI by ambushing on attack and being invisible when encamped. So you get to just play with your army and can pick your fights moreso than anyone else. Turn one building too so you don't have to wait around.
Roster is a bit boring but the campaign mechanics are top notch imo.

Honourable mention to vampire pirates as a roaming fleet.

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
This is more of a general history question, but Rome is one of the few armies in history that did not use spears as its primary weapons, right? Obviously they still had them but the gladius is their signature weapon carried by their mainline infantry. Are there any other nations in antiquity that passed on spears as their infantry standby?

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo

Arcsquad12 posted:

This is more of a general history question, but Rome is one of the few armies in history that did not use spears as its primary weapons, right? Obviously they still had them but the gladius is their signature weapon carried by their mainline infantry. Are there any other nations in antiquity that passed on spears as their infantry standby?

The gladius itself is an adoption from the celtiberians in carthaginian service, so they used them at least, right?

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you
Whole lotta clubs and axes showing up in the Americas' archaeological records too

Class Warcraft
Apr 27, 2006


Arcsquad12 posted:

This is more of a general history question, but Rome is one of the few armies in history that did not use spears as its primary weapons, right? Obviously they still had them but the gladius is their signature weapon carried by their mainline infantry. Are there any other nations in antiquity that passed on spears as their infantry standby?

The assegai the Zulus used, although technically a spear, has an interesting history. Originally the various tribes of that region primarily used what we would consider a conventional long spear (five feet long with a metal tip) and battles pretty much consisted of some ineffectual spear-throwing and then a tame version of a spear phalanx battle with one side usually losing their nerve and quitting the field after a few casualties. Shaka revolutionized their whole military system by developing a shortened spear, called the assegai with a foot-long metal blade at the end. This spear was well-suited for short quick thrusts, and he trained his soldiers to get in close, use their shields to batter their enemies, and thrust their spears into the openings - almost exactly like how roman legionaries would fight. There was an acute shortage of workable metal in the area, so short spears were far more practical than swords, and the shields were made of tanned cowhide rather than metal, but the idea was the same and was likewise extremely disconcerting to his opponents. Aside from this, he also drilled his soldiers extensively so they were highly disciplined and able to perform relatively complex battlefield maneuvers, allowing him to outflank and surround enemy forces in order to crush them decisively.

It's fascinating to me that a culture a thousand years removed from the Romans and with no outside influences would also basically develop the hoplite phalanx then also have that technique get discarded by a guy who invents the South African version of the Roman maniple.

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010

The last warlord is Gongsun Zan, meaning Dong Zhuo isn't playable.

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-three-kingdoms-warlord-legends-gongsun-zan

shalcar
Oct 21, 2009

At my signal, DEAL WITH IT.
Taco Defender
The new Steel and Statecraft patch for Thrones of Britannia is out:

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/the-steel-statecraft-update-patch-notes

Patch notes for those on mobile or at work:


quote:

The top highlights of the update were revealed in a blog post last week but, just in case you missed it, we’ve repeated that information below along with many additional tweaks, fixes and improvements.
Important Notes

“No save games were harmed in the making of this patch!”

Feel free to start a new campaign or pick up one of your saved games, it won’t break with the patch. However, please make sure you don’t have any mods enabled, otherwise compatibility cannot be guaranteed.

(However, if you do wish to continue using the current version of the game for your mods, you can do so by right clicking Thrones of Britannia in your Steam library, selecting Properties and then Betas and choosing the allegiance_patch option in the drop-down menu)
Mac and Linux

The Steel and Statecraft Update has been deployed today for PC. The update is also being developed by Feral Interactive for the Mac and Linux versions of the game. We’ll update you on the deployment date for that as soon as it’s confirmed.
Estates Overhaul

The purpose of Estates was to add challenges in managing a kingdom where each noble is playing the game of intrigue, looking to grab more power and land for themselves. However, the system didn’t have as much impact as we’d have liked, which is why Estates have received a rework to better represent a king granting land to his more important lords, thus ensuring their devotion to the crown. With the power of land ownership comes a responsibility for the owner to properly tend to his holdings – each Estate will offer a positive effect if given to the proper lord, or a negative one if the noble is not suited to presiding over such lands.

The nobles in turn do not sit idly, hoping for deeds to fall in their lap. The Estate Desire traits, which characters previously gained, have been replaced with requests, directed towards the crown in the form of missions. Every so often a lord in your faction will ask to be granted Estates, offering a reward in return. But if you deem the noble ineligible or sense malicious intent, and you ignore their request, their loyalty will start to waiver.

We’ve added more weight to managing your Estates, and to help with that we’ve reorganized the Estates interface. Each lord will list the effects that they provide from Estates they own. Moving Estates around has been made easier – clicking on an Estate will grant it to the selected character on the left. Beware, however, of dealing with Estates that are not in the king’s possession – nobles are quite attached to their lands and will rarely part with them without repercussions.
Traits

Traits depict the story of each character; their upbringing, their personality and the events that have occurred in their lifetime. Sifting through each character’s history can be cumbersome, which is why we’ve stacked traits into groups. Each trait group is now represented by a banner, with all effects of the traits within listed underneath. Clicking on a banner will list all traits within that group, giving a detailed account of the noble’s qualities.

As mentioned previously, each trait group will list how it affects a character’s Estates. The group with the most traits will be marked with a large yellow icon, showing the lord’s dominant characteristics and what effects they grant to the noble’s land ownership.
Recruitment Revamp

Recruitment in Thrones of Britannia is chance based, similar to the way in which mercenaries worked in previous titles. While it’s an interesting challenge to build armies with imperfect composition and size, it has downsides too, such as elite units appearing scarcely, and losing your painstakingly assembled army can be a devastating blow to your campaign.

We’ve replaced this chance-based system with cooldowns. When a unit type is recruited, there’s now a set number of turns before another becomes available. This retains the sense of choice limitation, but rewards planning and removes the random punishment of not having enough units simply because they didn’t appear in the recruitment pool.

The time it takes to build a full army can be lengthy, so recruitment events have been added, granting a quick supply of units to help with defending territories, or adding a helpful push to your conquering.

Buildings, technologies and faction mechanics have all received new effects to improve the recruitment times of units. We’ve also eased the unlock requirements of military technologies, to make meaningful choices in army management more accessible.
General patch notes
Politics
Political Difficulty Slider

For more challenge or to avoid meddling in politics too much, players now have the option to adjust the political difficulty of the game (separately from Campaign and Battle difficulty).

Secure Loyalty Tweaks

We’ve rebalanced the existing secure loyalty dilemmas and added a few new ones.
The system will now take into account the political power (Influence and Loyalty) of the target character and give the player an appropriate set of choices.
‘Torture’ is no longer the go-to way to express appreciation to highly loyal, long-time battle-brethren!

Buildings
Alternative Building Paths

Players now have the option to specialise their villages in one of two directions.
All village buildings have been updated to branch out right at the beginning (level 2) rather than at their last level. The old building paths have been left unchanged (save for some balance tweaks), to make it easier for existing players.
New building icons have been added to represent buildings with dual sources of income (e.g. CHURCH/COMMERCE).

Balance Changes

The effects of certain buildings have been tweaked to make each building a viable choice.
Church Crafts building now grant a bonus to income from LEAD villages.
Church Crafts now grants income (CHURCH), instead of modifying it.
Round Tower has been buffed to have half the maintenance cost and twice the buff to income (CHURCH).
Bullaun’s public order buff has been doubled.

Book of Traits (Trait Browser)

With the added importance of character traits, we believe there is more purpose to managing your characters, seeking their best development. All traits present in the game are now listed in the Book of Traits along with the condition of their acquisition.
The details of a trait will be locked until the player acquires that trait for the first time. (We still want players to experiment and discover traits on their own, but unlocked trait information will now be readily available)
The Book of Traits is persistent between campaigns, allowing players to hunt for a specific trait in a later playthrough.

Environment
New Major Settlement Maps

Map 1 – based on Bebbanburg Castle (used in-game for Bebbanburg and Eidenburg)
Map 2 – based on Rock of Cashel (used in-game for Caisil and Grianán Aileach)

New Viking and Anglo-Saxon Buildings

All settlement maps (both major ones and villages) have been updated to include new buildings.
Viking Gatehouse
Viking Long Hall
Viking Turf-roof Hall
Viking Drinking Hall
Viking House 1
Viking House 2
Viking House 3
Viking House 4
Anglo-Saxon Chieftains House
Anglo-Saxon Great Hall (under construction)

Texture Updates

Old roman fortifications now have unique textures that properly represents the building materials and techniques used for their construction and repairs.

Battle
General Attributes in Custom Battles

Players can now increase the attributes of their general (Command and Zeal) in custom battles. This costs army funds, not unlike experience upgrades of units.
The general’s ability is now chosen from a drop-down menu.
This addresses the issue of bodyguard units being too small in size and weak (in Thrones of Britannia bodyguard unit-size scales with Command).

Battle AI Improvements

Defending AI in sieges improved to respond better to attackers.
Improved unit selection and prioritization on walls to favour missile units when fortified position is not under threat.
Improved unit allocation to threatened sections of walls and breaches to favour heavy infantry.
Updated siege equipment and wall gap pathfinding.

Performance Optimization

Improved the general performance in battles, especially during sieges
Unit ‘stutter’ decreased significantly.

Visual Enhancements

Added ocean shader foam and edge
Added (optional) vignette and film grain post processing effects
Added (optional) god ray effects

UI Improvements
Governors and Estates

This window has been redesigned to make it easier to use. Simply select a character and then the Estate/province you want them to have.

Notifications

The notification system UI has been redesigned to improve its readability and ease of use.
The notifications are now located at the bottom right corner and can be ‘snoozed’, hiding them completely until they are needed again.

Miscellaneous

There’s now a large faction emblem present on the screen which opens the ‘Faction’ window. (similar to how it works in Rome 2). The old Faction button now simply redirects to the ‘Family Tree’ tab.
All missions now have a ‘Zoom to location’ functionality, giving players a more detailed information about the target.
The art element used for armies on the campaign map has been tweaked slightly to make armies a bit easier to distinguish from settlements.
Players can now choose to minimize the window with an overlay option that appears when the Space key is pressed, so it doesn’t block their view on the battlefield.
During battles, there’s now an alert when the model count of the general’s bodyguard unit falls below 40% (which makes the general himself vulnerable).
Shield Castle now properly articulates that units in this stance tire at reduced rate.

Mod Support

The Recruitment window can now accommodate any number of custom units (with a scroll-bar).
Retail pack files now contain exported binaries for all basic UI components, in addition to the already existing composite templates.

Other Changes
Inactive Achievements

Fixed certain achievements that become unobtainable with the Allegiance Update.

Stone of Destiny Missions

Rewards increased significantly.

Other Fixes

The unit cards of Northumbrian Mailed Thegns and Northumbrian Thegns have been swapped around.
Fixed an UI issue where the game didn’t properly display the name of the selected map in the custom battle lobby.
Fixed various UI issues with window priority which resulted in soft lock.
Adjustments have been made to the scripted declarations of war from the AI. We’ve balanced the weight of the different factors that lead to a war, so that it is more contextual and relevant to the current state of the campaign.
Fixed Hadrian wall ‘holes’ in some of the wall components.
Fixed several issues with misalignment of houses, fences, and gates in battle maps.
All missions now properly specify their target.
Fixed a UI issue with the Food bar not displaying its effect properly.
Fixed issues with Decrees not applying their effects properly.
Fixed an issue where the adoption of faction leaders caused their family tree to merge with the player’s.
Fixed an issue with the main menu disappearing after leaving a multiplayer lobby.
Fixed a crash related to the disbanding of armies and replacing a general.

Another nice little bit of polish for ToB. The choice for each village building is nice and are interesting, while the recruitment changes look like they make what was already an excellent system into an even better one.

SkySteak
Sep 9, 2010
I appreciate that this may be quite a well worn topic but I was curious about Rome II in regards to DEI. This is bound to be an opinion based matter but is it really as good as people claim it to be; given you cannot mention Rome II without it being constantly mentioned? The supply system looks good in theory but given how much like a frightening mess it looks like UI wise, I wonder if it actually plays well. Additionally population looks really neat but I heard the AI doesn't actually use that (or supply)?

The other option mentioned was Radius but I heard that its Total Warhammer counterparts are a tad bland.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo

SkySteak posted:

I appreciate that this may be quite a well worn topic but I was curious about Rome II in regards to DEI. This is bound to be an opinion based matter but is it really as good as people claim it to be; given you cannot mention Rome II without it being constantly mentioned? The supply system looks good in theory but given how much like a frightening mess it looks like UI wise, I wonder if it actually plays well. Additionally population looks really neat but I heard the AI doesn't actually use that (or supply)?

The other option mentioned was Radius but I heard that its Total Warhammer counterparts are a tad bland.

I like it, and the UI is solid for being totally 3rd party. Tooltips and interfaces are good.

As far as the AI using pop/supply: dunno if it does, but don’t care. You have to ask: do you want an AI that’s fun to play against or one that is “fair” and also sucks soooo hard?

Fuligin
Oct 27, 2010

wait what the fuck??

That Thrones patch is huge as hell


e; just played it for a bit, and I actually had a really fun time, which is new for me and ToB. Estates and characters finally feel like they have a reason to exist, without being ignorable or too irritating to deal with. The UI changes help a lot

Fuligin fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Dec 19, 2018

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo
New Thrones seems fun and has my favourite tw bug: riderless horses can capture gates from the outside.

Lucky for me the AI didn’t send any troops to exploit spec ops horse’s sabotage.

Fuligin
Oct 27, 2010

wait what the fuck??

so that's what that was.

ye on the whole it's a pretty big improvement. help that performance feels zippier, like they finally cleaned off the attila stickiness. I'd love to see these engine enhancements backported.

Chortles
Dec 29, 2008
Some clarification/confirmation from CA about the Total War: Three Kingdoms base game hero classes:

quote:

Champion: Duelists. These guys excel at taking out enemy heroes.

Vanguard: These are your unit killers, they're great at cutting their way through tons of normal soldiers.

Strategist: Not great in combat but can debuff enemies and provide extra formations for your troops. They also provide a bonus to ranged units.

Commander: Your more 'classic' general, they can fight competently (though not as well as Champions,Vanguards and Sentinels) and are great for buffing your own troops.

Sentinel: These guys are your best bet when it comes to tying down enemies, they can last for ages in combat with either regular troops, or heroes.
Also managed to find this useful reference:

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010

They also released all the 3K trailer music for download if you have an account on their website. Check day 5 of the Christmas stuff.

hemale in pain
Jun 5, 2010




I still can't be bothered with thrones. Just something about it is really dull I get bored after a hour.

ArgaWarga
Apr 8, 2005

dare to fail gloriously

I've never played a total war game and was thinking of picking one up when they're on sale, setting isn't super important to me, I'm leaning towards warhammer 1 but shogun 2/fots seems highly recommended, I dig economic games so I'd like a robust strategic level but I'm looking for something to scratch the RTS itch, am I on the right path?

Plan Z
May 6, 2012

hemale in pain posted:

I still can't be bothered with thrones. Just something about it is really dull I get bored after a hour.

It feels like there's always a patch of time about an hour in where you just go ages without a battle.

Communist Thoughts
Jan 7, 2008

Our war against free speech cannot end until we silence this bronze beast!


ArgaWarga posted:

I've never played a total war game and was thinking of picking one up when they're on sale, setting isn't super important to me, I'm leaning towards warhammer 1 but shogun 2/fots seems highly recommended, I dig economic games so I'd like a robust strategic level but I'm looking for something to scratch the RTS itch, am I on the right path?

Warham1 is probably the best out of the two and more beginner friendly on the campaign layer.

Shogun 2 FotS etc is good too though and runs very well. Possibly simpler to get the hang of cause all the teams are very similar and units work like rock paper scissors. Otoh warhams has 5 base factions (Inc. Bretonnia freeLC) that are very different in and out of battles.

E: neither are very complex economically sadly.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo

ArgaWarga posted:

I've never played a total war game and was thinking of picking one up when they're on sale, setting isn't super important to me, I'm leaning towards warhammer 1 but shogun 2/fots seems highly recommended, I dig economic games so I'd like a robust strategic level but I'm looking for something to scratch the RTS itch, am I on the right path?

Warhammer’s strategic layer is fun but it isn’t as complex as Rome 2 or Thrones. Otoh it’s battles are easily the best. If you pick Warhammer I’d definitely get 1 first. It’s cheaper and the changes in 2 are things you mostly don’t miss until you’ve experiences them. Plus if you like the game you’ll eventually want both since they combine.

Communist Thoughts
Jan 7, 2008

Our war against free speech cannot end until we silence this bronze beast!


Even modded I don't think any total war game is economically complex or engaging. Rome 2 with divide et impera mod is probably as complex as Iv played it and that mostly boils down to learning the optimal buildings for your provinces.
(stadiums and fountains for civilised folks, shitters and urinals for barbarians)

Chortles
Dec 29, 2008
There's also speculation about the depth of the Three Kingdoms strategic layer, especially when combined with the emphasis on characters.

Panama Red
Jul 30, 2003

Only in America could you find a way to earn a healthy buck and still keep your attitude on self destruct
I got Total War: Shogun 2 for Christmas and love it, but I have one question: Is there any way to prevent great clans from being destroyed so early in a game? The Tokugawa and the Oda in particular seem to always get destroyed early. This seems to be a common issue, but I could only find one mod that seemed to address the issue, but it's very old and dependent on downloading a complete overhaul mod as well.

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008

War is an uncaring mistress. Those caught up in her fire will burn, regardless of their standing or importance.

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.
Take up the mantle of either and bring them their divine justice.

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
Play as the Mori and slaughter them with Wako pirates or play as the Oda and poke everyone to death with long pointed sticks.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo
If you think about it TW is basically an rpg as the patron divinity of [faction.]

Mars vs Baal
God vs God
St George vs Liberty

underage at the vape shop
May 11, 2011

by Cyrano4747
Why did they think total war would be fun if the AI can just poo poo out units for free. Hard is too easy, very hard is just putting up with bullshit.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo

underage at the vape shop posted:

Why did they think total war would be fun if the AI can just poo poo out units for free. Hard is too easy, very hard is just putting up with bullshit.

I think it's more that making competent AI is really difficult.

underage at the vape shop
May 11, 2011

by Cyrano4747
I got rise of the republic on sale and the veii are just making GBS threads out hoplites while I struggle with latin spearmen and it feels like it's unwinnable. I've tried being aggressive, I've tried letting them invade me, I've tried moving my army around the border and none of it works. When I let them invade me I sacrificed the small coastal town so I could come wipe their damaged army out with my army, and I managed to do a tonne of damage with the garrison. Next turn rolls around and they've not only healed their entire army to full but managed to add more men. If I move my army to counter their movements on the border they just raid my territory and they have such a good army that I can't possibly beat it, balance of power is at 10% for me and the very best I can do is a costly enemy victory. It's just unfair and that is really lame :(

Agean90
Jun 28, 2008


Who are you playing as?

Also, use mercenaries.

underage at the vape shop
May 11, 2011

by Cyrano4747
Rome. I am using mercenaries. Whatever balance patches they've done have made it way too hard, the Veii are just way too strong. I've tried following lionhearts letsplay too, just then, doing the exact same things as he does, and my balance of power sits around 15% in the first fight and his is at 70%. This is ridiculous, not to mention how dumb RNG faction traits are, really rewarding when 1 campaign you roll both familes having excellent traits and the next is triple red on both. What a dumb game.

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Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
Playing Napoleon with DarthMod. Apart from Princess Leia being my advisor, I'm quite enjoying having actual volley fire troops again. It's still tricky coming back to the older UI, though. Napoleon's UI isn't bad, but the campaign map makes it unnecessarily frustrating trying to find important stuff like your income for next turn. Having that be up top and immediately visible is really important, but it's buried in a menu and the text is hard to read.

Also, naval battles still suck and are either 1v1 duels where your opponent always gets the weather gauge and rakes you constantly, or fleet action clusterfucks. At least the land combat is fun.

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