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ToastyPotato posted:Those games aren't making tons of money because of last hitting. They came out years ahead of HotS, like Toady mentioned. They struck while the DOTA iron was hot. Blizzard was super late to the party and released an unfinished, overpriced product while at the same time trying to sell it as easier than normal mobas. That was never going to work and that is pure basics. Personally I feel like people stick around with these games because they enjoy the gameplay of it. If they didn't enjoy the gameplay they wouldn't really stick around. I never really thought the gameplay in HOTS was just any good. Like I'm not sure who they were targeting, but they wanted the piece of the pie that was left behind by Dota/League because those games were either too complex or matches took too long or something. I saw someone say that they wanted to be the smash brothers of mobas, but even Smash has some crazy mechanics that keeps players engaged. I never really saw that in HOTS. I mean you are also right with Blizzard being so late to the party as well and just not really learning any of the lessons from Dota/League RE: price models, etc.
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Dec 14, 2018 18:44
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I think LoL and Dota are bigger more complicated games beyond just the last hitting. I think they offer a LOT in terms of gameplay differences beyond last hits. HotS getting rid of last hits was just one thing on a list of things they did to streamline the game, including smaller game area, shared exp, no gold, no items, etc. While the streamlining definitely kept the more serious MOBA players away, there is no way I can see that being the cause of its demise. I hate to keep harping on Fortnite, but I feel it is apt here. BR games were fairly complicated prior to Fortnite. PUBG inventory management is atrocious to watch. Fortnite was super streamlined in its approach, and it was cheaper to play than PUBG, so it killed PUBG, even though it came after it.
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Dec 14, 2018 18:51
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PUBG was also a catastrophically janky, buggy mess, whereas Fortnite was relatively polished. That matters.
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Dec 14, 2018 18:55
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Yeah I think how Blizzard managed this game had way more to do with this than the complexity. Coming late with an unpolished product did not help at all.
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Dec 14, 2018 18:57
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ToastyPotato posted:I think LoL and Dota are bigger more complicated games beyond just the last hitting. I think they offer a LOT in terms of gameplay differences beyond last hits. HotS getting rid of last hits was just one thing on a list of things they did to streamline the game, including smaller game area, shared exp, no gold, no items, etc. While the streamlining definitely kept the more serious MOBA players away, there is no way I can see that being the cause of its demise. I hate to keep harping on Fortnite, but I feel it is apt here. BR games were fairly complicated prior to Fortnite. PUBG inventory management is atrocious to watch. Fortnite was super streamlined in its approach, and it was cheaper to play than PUBG, so it killed PUBG, even though it came after it. Oh 100%. On your point with PUBG/Fortnite, PUBG was actually a simplied version of all of the previous BR games/mods that came before it. If you thought PUBG inventory was bad, then you never saw H1Z1 for example. Also PUBG isn't even dead, it seems that way with the incredible success Fortnite had this year but its still on the top 3 most played games on steam.
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Dec 14, 2018 18:57
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Cabbit posted:PUBG was also a catastrophically janky, buggy mess, whereas Fortnite was relatively polished. That matters. True, but it was still massively popular. And BRs in general were always janky and buggy mods. The REAL Goobusters posted:Oh 100%. On your point with PUBG/Fortnite, PUBG was actually a simplied version of all of the previous BR games/mods that came before it. If you thought PUBG inventory was bad, then you never saw H1Z1 for example. Yeah saying it was killed is hyperbole on my part. But generally, it was kind of dumpstered by Fortnite. But it was big enough that it was able to weather the storm. Of note is how almost no one else was able to fully crack the BR market since. I'd be interested in seeing what the CoD BR numbers look like. Funnily enough, CoD BR actually seems REALLY appealing to me, but once again, an Activision game just seems way too overpriced to be worth it. See also: Me quitting WoW. I actually barely remember pre-PUBG BR stuff. I remember watching ARMA 3 BR (Avidyazen on Youtube mostly) and thinking it was sorta cool back then and that is about it.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:02
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I think a good chunk of it had to do with using gimmick maps and sharing exp. The problem I have with this game is a lot of the map gimmicks are snowbally and since you share exp it’s kinda harder to drag your lovely teammates to the finish line if they don’t want to go.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:04
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I guess capitalism is even ruining videogames now. All this games as a service nonsense without actually providing the service
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Dec 14, 2018 19:05
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Invalid Validation posted:I think a good chunk of it had to do with using gimmick maps and sharing exp. The problem I have with this game is a lot of the map gimmicks are snowbally and since you share exp it’s kinda harder to drag your lovely teammates to the finish line if they don’t want to go. I'd argue that poor hero balance, poor matchmaking, and a game that doesn't really enforce or teach good habits in new players make the map objectives seem far worse than they are. Granted some maps have been worse than others, and were redesigned as a result, but in general, I would say all of those other things contributed more to bad matches than the maps themselves. Schneider Inside Her posted:I guess capitalism is even ruining videogames now. All this games as a service nonsense without actually providing the service Actually true. The "always be growing" nature of publicly traded corporations is unsustainable in general, and generally does not mesh well with gaming, especially online gaming. Every single publicly traded games company will eventually fall in the same way, because there simply is no way to continuously top yourself and not be predatory as gently caress. Games simply take too long and too much effort to make good. ToastyPotato fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Dec 14, 2018 |
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Dec 14, 2018 19:08
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Yea but think about the one map DOTA and league has and then look at the dozen or more maps HOTS has and every one of them have a burden of knowledge associated with them. For being the cool streamlined MOBA that was a big gently caress up.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:10
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Invalid Validation posted:Yea but think about the one map DOTA and league has and then look at the dozen or more maps HOTS has and every one of them have a burden of knowledge associated with them. For being the cool streamlined MOBA that was a big gently caress up. That is also true. I think this is made worse by every map having a totally different lay out. I can understand different tile sets and different gimmicks, but having some maps be two lane, some three lanes, but different sizes, with different camp lay outs, etc. I mean it just ends up with what we have where some maps end up being hated. You also end up wasting precious resources on all these maps instead of on things that actually make money. Whoopsy.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:13
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I can't help but think that fortnite is going to be a dead game in a year or so. It's a fad.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:14
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I think Epic understand that and is getting as much cash as they can and leveraging that into being a Steam competitor.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:15
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Dietrich posted:I can't help but think that fortnite is going to be a dead game in a year or so. It's a fad. Anytime anything gets popular people say that though. It's not really an opinion worth having. Also, these games, it is pretty rare for a game to be super popular beyond a couple of years anyway. DOTA and LoL are kind of hold overs from an older time. Fortnite BR also isn't really designed for longevity anyway. It was made to capitalize on the BR trend and ended up scoring big. But the odds that one of the most popular online games in the world will be an actual dead game in 12 months is pretty low outside of some new game coming out that actually pulls people away, or some kind of crazy drama that destroys the game's image. That it will deflate over time is a given. Radish posted:I think Epic understand that and is getting as much cash as they can and leveraging that into being a Steam competitor. This. If they believed Fortnite was a 10 year game, they wouldn't be throwing tons of money into competing with Steam, the thing that made Valve stop making games.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:18
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now that you guys have all this free time from not playing hots, would you like to hear about the tendency of the rate of profit to fall?
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Dec 14, 2018 19:22
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Schneider Inside Her posted:I guess capitalism is even ruining videogames now. All this games as a service nonsense without actually providing the service I can hear Jim Sterling now.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:35
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Like a few others have expressed- I'm not bothered by the end of competitive HOTS (and by extension, HOTS) because I felt the game has been moving in the wrong direction for a long time. Previously I played Diamond/Master and followed the meta- now I'm only logging in to one-trick Hammer or Kale.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:43
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pro overwatch is funny as it is but this game having a comp scene is something else. i guess that's the nature of multiplayer games now - doesn't matter how fit it is as a competitive game it's gonna be one for marketing purposes.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:51
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HotS was never competitive enough to find its place in the moba esport scene when it joined the party so late. I had fun with HotS even though I stopped playing months ago, but on the bright side genji will die with it  also lol that this thread, in its dying breath, still curses last hitting
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Dec 14, 2018 19:52
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Invalid Validation posted:Yea but think about the one map DOTA and league has and then look at the dozen or more maps HOTS has and every one of them have a burden of knowledge associated with them. For being the cool streamlined MOBA that was a big gently caress up. This!!!!!!! A lot of people online bitch about the 1 map in LoL/Dota (and now Fortnite as well) but having 1 map works.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:55
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Uh, so what does "cadence" mean in this context? Assuming the worst predictions don't come true and there's still some people playing, for say a year?
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Dec 14, 2018 19:57
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Dilkington posted:Like a few others have expressed- I'm not bothered by the end of competitive HOTS (and by extension, HOTS) because I felt the game has been moving in the wrong direction for a long time. Previously I played Diamond/Master and followed the meta- now I'm only logging in to one-trick Hammer or Kale. I do feel really, really bad for all of the players who had hung their hats on the game though. People with new apartment leases with the ink still wet that moved because of HGC, to find out with zero notice that they were unemployed. The Crucible winners who worked hard for a year, did something to be proud of, and were left in the wind. Streamers who built their livelihood on it will have no growth potential, because interest in competitive play is what sends people to youtube and streams. HotS stopped being fun for me a long time ago, but there's a community that grew which is getting the short, sharp end of a very mean stick here.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:59
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Don’t they still promote WoW arena? I can’t believe that would be anymore profitable than HoTS esports.
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Dec 14, 2018 20:02
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I've got some sympathy for the pros but that's what dedicating yourself to an unstable market is like. Professional gamblers got upended with the UIGEA, mortgage brokers got hosed in 2008. poo poo happens, if they wanted a stable job they would have become plumbers.
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Dec 14, 2018 20:05
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almost all of the streamers hate this game anyways it's not really too sad for them. The people who get hit the hardest are the pro gamers but this was always a temporary low-paying career anyways they're probably better off starting their new lives earlier. Like Fan graduated from UCal Berkeley, guy should have gotten out ages ago. Lol that the hotslogs guy managed to sell his websote before the game died.
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Dec 14, 2018 20:11
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Personally I feel like people stick around with these games because they enjoy the gameplay of it. If they didn't enjoy the gameplay they wouldn't really stick around. I never really thought the gameplay in HOTS was just any good. Like I'm not sure who they were targeting, but they wanted the piece of the pie that was left behind by Dota/League because those games were either too complex or matches took too long or something. I saw someone say that they wanted to be the smash brothers of mobas, but even Smash has some crazy mechanics that keeps players engaged. Part of the problem with HotS is I don't think Blizzard really knew who they were targeting. They were often torn between a large contingent of players who wanted something less complex and those who thought the skill-cap was too low. Having said that, I played LoL for many years at gold/plat/diamond level before coming to HotS and I think what attracted me most initially was short game times (20 min vs 40 min) as well as the simplicity of the design. I left League around Season 5 because it seemed like every change they introduced added unnecessary mechanical complexity. Every item was getting changed to have some kind of active ability or unique effect that takes paragraphs to explain. Every new skill they reworked or added had this "but wait there's more" syndrome of special interactions that you had to keep track of. It was really refreshing for me, coming from that environment, to play someone like Muradin and just have a skillshot stun be a skillshot stun with no gimmicks. The development team for HotS at that time seemed interested in keeping people like me (who don't enjoy a ton of mechanical complexity) happy by focusing on the basics. One place where HotS succeeded in doing some really unique stuff is with heroes like Cho'Gall, Vikings, Abathur, and Murky. I think a lot of people wish they had gone more in that direction and in an alternate timeline this could've been what drew people to the game over LoL and DotA.
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Dec 14, 2018 20:13
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In addition to some of those unique heroes: Towers of Doom, dynamic mercs instead of static camps, and some of the map objectives are truly interesting, and I bet a causal-ish MOBA could take that ball and run with it.
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Dec 14, 2018 20:21
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BattleHamster posted:Part of the problem with HotS is I don't think Blizzard really knew who they were targeting. They were often torn between a large contingent of players who wanted something less complex and those who thought the skill-cap was too low. I disagree--I think Blizzard has always known they were targeting Blizzard fans who wanted to play as Diablo and Thrall and buy skins and mounts. That's why the game was never that deep and why it never got much marketing. It's exactly what they called it in the announcement, a love letter to their other games, something that long-time Blizzard fans like Grubby could stream for a couple of hours without much investment (from Blizzard or players).
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Dec 14, 2018 20:23
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Nybble posted:In addition to some of those unique heroes: Towers of Doom, dynamic mercs instead of static camps, and some of the map objectives are truly interesting, and I bet a causal-ish MOBA could take that ball and run with it. The market would be pretty tough for any new entry to crack at this point. The only way someone would be able to make a dent would be to release a solid game with a ton of available content for people to buy (that they actually want to buy.) They would also need to market the absolute poo poo out of it just to establish what the point of even bothering with them would be. Basically the only companies who could probably afford it are either not interested, or in Blizzard's case, completely incapable.
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Dec 14, 2018 20:25
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quote:Production Director, Kaéo Milker on what's next for Heroes of the Storm. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/heroes/t/a-message-from-kaeo-milker/10022?linkId=100000004354760 quote:Yesterday, we announced a difficult decision—the HGC will not be returning in 2019 and we’ll be transitioning some Heroes of the Storm developers to our other game teams. While our extended Blizzard family working on World of Warcraft, Hearthstone, Overwatch, and our unannounced projects will be getting an influx of much-needed, extremely talented Heroes devs to help them achieve their goals, it also means that we’ll need to change the cadence of support for Heroes going forward. TLDR: What's next for Heroes of the Storm is uhh...  ?edit: this reply lol https://twitter.com/AthalWard88/status/1073661306840997893
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Dec 14, 2018 20:35
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purity of purpose
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Dec 14, 2018 20:36
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"And even new heroes" Jesus loving Christ
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Dec 14, 2018 20:39
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It's almost funny that Blizzard's go to response to them doing something terrible is always predictably "stay tuned, we might have something good for you!"
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Dec 14, 2018 20:39
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Honestly the bigger question I have is if they plan on making good mobile games or just cynically assuming the Chinese playerbase doesn't care about quality and just making GBS threads out the same generic gatcha games that have already flooded the market.
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Dec 14, 2018 20:46
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It sucks that their esports folks are having the rug pulled out from under them, but hopefully it will get more people to recognize that's not a viable career path since you'll have even fewer protections than the average US worker and will literally never be able to unionize.
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Dec 14, 2018 20:47
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I hope the new heroes are from Diablo Immortal
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Dec 14, 2018 20:53
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chumbler posted:It sucks that their esports folks are having the rug pulled out from under them, but hopefully it will get more people to recognize that's not a viable career path since you'll have even fewer protections than the average US worker and will literally never be able to unionize. https://twitter.com/Liam_HotS/status/1073371376260603904
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Dec 14, 2018 20:55
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Radish posted:Honestly the bigger question I have is if they plan on making good mobile games or just cynically assuming the Chinese playerbase doesn't care about quality and just making GBS threads out the same generic gatcha games that have already flooded the market. i think we all know the answer to this
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Dec 14, 2018 21:05
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The only reason the mobile market is so successful is because most of it is shovelware.
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Dec 14, 2018 21:19
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It's not even clear to me what a well-designed mobile game looks like. Hearthstone, I guess?
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Dec 14, 2018 21:20
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