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Vox Nihili posted:I don't think anyone actually believes prosecutors shouldn't be a thing. It's a question of the context under which they operate in the United States, specifically, and especially in certain states and locales. Just like how few people actually believe that there shouldn't be police; generally what people want is reform, not anarchy. Except... Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Yeah the evictions are just a joke. We pay people money to leave. I'm just a normal civil litigator building roads.
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Dec 16, 2018 00:08
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This is one of my favorite arguments, in a bad way, because literally every component of the issue that people can disagree on is inextricably linked to a separate component of another issue and people can literally hop from moving target to moving target for hours until both sides are so mad at each other they give up. And nobody really has the patience to methodically walk issue to issue, or the objectivity to discuss the entire issue from a 1000 mile-high viewpoint, so it ends up being kids fighting over specific balls in a ball pit.
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Dec 16, 2018 00:08
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When I get worried about the ethics of my job, I just think of my favorite Calvin & Hobbes cartoon about the aliens that take away all of earth's air and water.
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Dec 16, 2018 00:30
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Just to make sure I’m not delusional, I did a quick numbers check. Our county has one “high court” and a second court that handles our misdemeanor/infraction cases. Our Monday docket for both trial list and pretrials 1 attempted murder that’s pleading down to 2 assault 1 w deadly weapon 3 attempted murders 6 sex assault in the first (most w weapon) 1 motor vehicle theft 2 child sex assault 1 attempted child sex assault 1 felony murder/robbery 1 kidnap/risk of injury 4 armed robbery 2 VOP So... yeah. Unless you’re running a drug enterprise...we don’t care. And even then... only care because most of our murders are drug enterprise related. (And yes. I think legalizing a lot of narcotics would probably fix some of that) Drug cases go to low court. Overwhelming majority get programs or nolles. I get other areas do things differently. And don’t approve of how it’s done in a lot of places. See eg elected DAs. But I don’t think this is a topic where anyone can speak in absolutes. ActusRhesus fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Dec 16, 2018 |
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Dec 16, 2018 00:33
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homullus posted:By what percent would the prison population be reduced if those convicted of nonviolent offenses paid their debt to society in a way that wasn't prison? It sounds as though you think it's a small number. It's not a small number. It's not an order of magnitude, though. If you aggregate the state and federal systems and just drop out the nonviolent crimes (whether convicted or not), you would drop the prison total by a little more than half of the current total. 
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Dec 16, 2018 00:44
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"All non-violent crimes" as in, including burglary, car theft, etc? And if someone who steals a car doesn't have the money to pay the fine for stealing the car, then you throw them in ja--- no, thats also a non-violent crime. So, there's functionally no punishment for stealing a car, burning someone's house down, or embezzling and spending millions of dollars from a charity? If you just tossed out all drug crime, thats what, 8%? That would also include the guys selling meth to children, of course.
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Dec 16, 2018 00:52
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it apparently is just as easy as posting some guillotine cosplay poo poo like "uhhh... like, abolish all prisons??" to trigger a multi post response
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Dec 16, 2018 00:52
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Yeah the evictions are just a joke. We pay people money to leave. I'm just a normal civil litigator building roads. Also, I don't buy it, this whole, "The system should go, but I have no opinion about what should replace it." Of course you do - If I said, "ok, instead of jail, we will just guillotine everyone." you'd object. If I suggested we force all criminals to be lowered into a pit of sewage for a period of time commensurate with the severity of their crime, you'd object. By process of elimination, I could suggest every theoretical alternative to the current system until there was a suggestion you didn't object to, which would have been your position all along.
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Dec 16, 2018 00:58
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blarzgh posted:"All non-violent crimes" as in, including burglary, car theft, etc? Yes, per the graphic above. blarzgh posted:If you just tossed out all drug crime, thats what, 8%? That would also include the guys selling meth to children, of course. About 22% (tossing in DUI with drug crime). Still not going to move the needle.
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Dec 16, 2018 00:59
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Hot drat, a simultaneous "guillotine" reference in the law thread; the zeitgeist speaks
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Dec 16, 2018 00:59
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ulmont posted:About 22% (tossing in DUI with drug crime). Still not going to move the needle. I went to "LAW" school, not "MATH" school!
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Dec 16, 2018 01:01
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blarzgh posted:Hot drat, a simultaneous "guillotine" reference in the law thread; the zeitgeist speaks I can get behind this. More humane than years of torture in prison, right? And yes. “Non violent” is such a delightfully vague term.
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Dec 16, 2018 01:07
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Also... question on that graph. If someone is convicted on multiple counts, which one are they counted as for purposes of this study?
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Dec 16, 2018 01:16
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ActusRhesus posted:If someone is convicted on multiple counts, which one are they counted as for purposes of this study? Highest only. In descending order: homicide, rape/other sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, larceny/motor vehicle theft, fraud, drug trafficking, drug possession, weapons offense, driving under the influence, other public-order, and other.
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Dec 16, 2018 01:19
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ulmont posted:Highest only. In descending order: homicide, rape/other sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, larceny/motor vehicle theft, fraud, drug trafficking, drug possession, weapons offense, driving under the influence, other public-order, and other. So someone who is busted for drugs AND an illegal firearm is considered a non-violent drug offender in your statistics. Also. How much are we talking about when we say possession? Are dime bag of weed and kilo of cocaine grouped the same?
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Dec 16, 2018 01:22
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ActusRhesus posted:So someone who is busted for drugs AND an illegal firearm is considered a non-violent drug offender in your statistics. Which I think tracks the current Supreme Court "violent felony" residual clause interpretation clusterfuck. ActusRhesus posted:Also. How much are we talking about when we say possession? Are dime bag of weed and kilo of cocaine grouped the same? Depends on state law - these come from BJS stats reported by the states primarily.
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Dec 16, 2018 01:27
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You see the problem though, in taking someone doing years for being a felon in possession of a firearm, and claiming that sentence was for the “Oh and by the way he had some weed too” conviction, right?
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Dec 16, 2018 01:34
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ActusRhesus posted:You see the problem though, in taking someone doing years for being a felon in possession of a firearm, and claiming that sentence was for the “Oh and by the way he had some weed too” conviction, right? Take it up with the DOJ. https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p16.pdf
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Dec 16, 2018 01:38
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ActusRhesus posted:You see the problem though, in taking someone doing years for being a felon in possession of a firearm, and claiming that sentence was for the “Oh and by the way he had some weed too” conviction, right? Wait is “gun without permit” a violent crime now?
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Dec 16, 2018 04:04
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ActusRhesus posted:Nah. It’s really all about the BCBS. Lol Now there's the reeses bants I've come to expect
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Dec 16, 2018 04:11
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Our local prosecutors office seems to have three main qualifications for new hires, 1) Are you smug and self-righteous?, 2) Are you cool with kicking people while they're down?, 3) Do you believe the cure to homelessness is putting them in jail for minor poo poo 30 days at a time? Edit: The whole "What, you don't think rapists and murderers should go to prison?" argument is disingenuous. The reason prosecutors piss people off is incarcerating people for minor poo poo, or you know, the vast majority of stuff that aren't bad felonies. I know this because I have to fight this battle every loving day Tokelau All Star fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Dec 16, 2018 |
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Dec 16, 2018 05:34
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Quote is not edit Tokelau All Star fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Dec 16, 2018 |
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Dec 16, 2018 05:38
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The obvious solution to today’s prison conditions is cryoprisons. Just like fancy Taco Bell, Demolition Man was right.
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Dec 16, 2018 06:08
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Tokelau All Star posted:Our local prosecutors office seems to have three main qualifications for new hires, 1) Are you smug and self-righteous?, 2) Are you cool with kicking people while they're down?, 3) Do you believe the cure to homelessness is putting them in jail for minor poo poo 30 days at a time? true believer prosecutors (the smug, young type) are the absolute worst, it's true
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Dec 16, 2018 06:08
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Lol at using your free time on a Saturday to defend the American prison system
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Dec 16, 2018 06:22
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The obvious solution to today's prison conditions is blockchain. edit: I am totally down with diversion and treatment, but legalizing addictive substances isn't going to be a good solution. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Dec 16, 2018 |
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Dec 16, 2018 06:44
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All non-violent offenses should carry a year maximum with a requirement that every effort be made to prevent recidivism. AR works as a prosecutor and if I had my druthers she wouldn't have to. Let's make the poor a protected class and proceed from there. P.S. I only care about felons in possession in so far as I care about guns on the street. KIR wit the hammers folks
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Dec 16, 2018 07:12
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Felon in possession frequently = guns on street. Yeah. That’s the issue. And not to sound like an old... but has anyone else noticed a trend in smug douchiness from young lawyers in general? Kids these days... Smug bully prosecutors are assholes. Smug true believer defense attorneys are assholes. Smug prosecutors are a bigger problem because of the power they wield. Luckily that poo poo doesn’t fly here. Reading this thread depresses me. I don’t doubt you’re acurately describing what you see. But man. That is so different from how we operate. We have one guy in my office who is a dickwad. We can’t get rid of him because Union. But he’s basically hidden in a corner where he can’t do any damage until he retires. As for gun issue. I was very specific. Felon in possession. As for legalizing addictive substances... nicotine and alcohol are legal. It would come with a whole new set of issues, sure. But I do think it would end others. The really important thing though... is that a new Dragon Age is in the works. ActusRhesus fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Dec 16, 2018 |
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Dec 16, 2018 12:17
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ActusRhesus posted:Smug true believer defense attorneys are assholes. I hate these the most
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Dec 16, 2018 12:24
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sullat posted:When I get worried about the ethics of my job, I just think of my favorite Calvin & Hobbes cartoon about the aliens that take away all of earth's air and water. Lol So glad I had something to do on a Saturday night instead of arguing on this website. Just kidding I liked reading everything everyone said. But I do think the guillotine went out of fashion too soon and public/televised execution should be a thing again. But only for white collar criminals.
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Dec 16, 2018 13:31
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See, everyone rushes in to go "ah look a logical fallacy." Try to examine your belief systems. If you think the American retributive justice system is good, works, or is not based on the systemic injustice on which western society is built, then I cannot discuss this with you. And I again, I can critique a system without having to go "and here is my 473 page paper on how we reform this." Genocide is wrong. Murder is wrong. Torture is wrong. War is wrong. Prisons are wrong.
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Dec 16, 2018 13:51
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Phil Moscowitz posted:Lol I’m a woman. Science says I multitask better than you. I can multitask shitposting and binge watching supernatural.
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Dec 16, 2018 13:54
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Prisons are wrong. Ok. Again. Really trying to understand your point here. Is your claim that as it exists now the prison system needs reform, or that the concept of incarceration, in and of itself, is wrong?
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Dec 16, 2018 13:59
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All issues related to the criminal justice system stem from the singular issue of systemic inequality in the country. Big law is the most immoral legal profession and those ensared and entrapped in betraying the nation by high salaries should be face trial for their crimes against the people. Prosecutors are fine since they will be ultimately responsible for the Latham trials of 2020
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Dec 16, 2018 14:45
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Incarceration is wrong, but we don't currently have an alternative. In the interim, the prison system needs to be destroyed and rebuilt. Reform isn't strong enough.
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Dec 16, 2018 14:52
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So. Just so I understand you. Your position is that incarceration, in and of itself, regardless of method/conditions/etc is wrong.
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Dec 16, 2018 14:58
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ActusRhesus posted:So. Just so I understand you. Your position is that incarceration, in and of itself, regardless of method/conditions/etc is wrong. I would generally agree with this, with the caveat that after a certain point it’s a semantic argument. Like if someone’s in a diversion program there’s some amount of effort put into limiting the complete freedom of movement and action they had before. Is this incarceration? Any future system would absolutely have to do the same. At what point does it become incarceration? A person wearing and ankle monitor that won’t let them go to certain places isn’t really incarcerated. Is a person living in a halfway house incarcerated? But yeah, the idea that simply tossing someone in a box they can’t leave for a set period of time is a fitting punishment? That’s totally immoral.
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Dec 16, 2018 15:24
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Yes, but I don't know what you would do with the people who cause great harm to others. We aren't equipped to do something feasible yet (e.g. Literally altering the brain to make people no longer want to gently caress kids). Maybe there is some form of incarceration that isn't essentially torture; I don't know what that would be. I have a long-term goal for humanity, and it's a post scarcity world. I won't achieve it, but I'm an optimist.
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Dec 16, 2018 15:24
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Tokelau All Star posted:Edit: The whole "What, you don't think rapists and murderers should go to prison?" argument is disingenuous. The reason prosecutors piss people off is incarcerating people for minor poo poo, or you know, the vast majority of stuff that aren't bad felonies. I know this because I have to fight this battle every loving day It’s only disingenuous when people aren’t literally saying that even the abstract concept of incarceration is per se immoral. Which is what seems to be happening here. Your example of going after homeless for 30 day bids is garbage. Out of curiosity are your DAs elected or appointed? Edit: garbage as in “its garbage that someone would do that.” In case I wasn’t clear.
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Dec 16, 2018 15:47
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Incarceration is wrong, but we don't currently have an alternative. Are you saying any retributive action is wrong, or just the act of removing someone from society and constricting their movement is wrong, specifically? Also, did you suggest that lobotomizing criminals until they don't want to commit crimes anymore is a viable alternative?
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Dec 16, 2018 15:51
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