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You might want to look up the true ending conditions, while it's not hard it's also not something the game ever really pushes you towards.
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Dec 17, 2018 13:56
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Umineko Episode 8 What the gently caress I thought this was supposed to be a kinetic novel. Do these quiz decisions matter? edit: a canon 6-year-old Ange is smarter than I Dessel fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Dec 17, 2018 |
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Dec 17, 2018 19:19
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I'd reload if you get them wrong because the scenes they unlock are pure  Besides extra scenes, no.
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Dec 17, 2018 19:25
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I'll need to post more thoughts about it after finishing but in Umineko episode 8 argument about a murder having happened outside the island to define a culprit is a huge asspull the more I think about it. It probably violates the rule about establishing facts within the story itself or something.
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Dec 18, 2018 04:18
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That may have been exactly the point of the scene.
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Dec 18, 2018 04:28
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For anyone who's interested, Kindred Spirits on the Roof and House of Fata Morgana are both on sale on GOG right as part of a daily deal (ending in less than 10 hours). I had thought about buying Kindred Spirits, but after giving it a look, I decided not to. It looks cute, but I figured it wouldn't hold my interest. Fata Morgana looks like it has really nice art, but the story summary doesn't really grab me. Max Wilco fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Dec 18, 2018 |
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Dec 18, 2018 05:06
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Max Wilco posted:For anyone who's interested, Kindred Spirits on the Roof and House of Fata Morgana are both on sale on GOG right as part of a daily deal (ending in less than 10 hours). Fata Morgana is really good. It is in my top 5 VNs of all time. And it has my favorite VN OST of all time.
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Dec 18, 2018 05:23
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Don't skip Fata Morgana
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Dec 18, 2018 13:24
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Don't skip Kindred Spirits
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Dec 18, 2018 13:34
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MegaZeroX posted:Fata Morgana is really good. It is in my top 5 VNs of all time. And it has my favorite VN OST of all time. Hell yeah. Soundtrack is great Umineko and Fata Morgana are the top 2 VN's imo. The soundtrack was on spotify and was one of my most listened artist Sefal fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Dec 18, 2018 |
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Dec 18, 2018 14:04
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Talking of House of Fata Morgana's OST the soundtracks replace a few in-game songs with others. This is extremely egregious with the track called Desolation, and I nearly went insane trying to find it. (I don't see super obvious spoilers in the playlist right away but might want to be careful if you care) in-game track Soundtrack version I'm not a music buff at all but I especially like how the original version is recorded in a way that you can actually hear "mechanics of piano" in the song. Good listen with decent headphones or proper speakers in a quiet environment. The soundtrack version completely lacks the emotion the in-game one has. Dessel fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Dec 18, 2018 |
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Dec 18, 2018 18:10
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I finally finished Umineko last night. That was a ride. As a contrast to Fata Morgana which I found to be fairly well paced, I got way more emotional while reading Umineko. Like I was actually properly shedding tears. There's least three overall themes that the VN explores, though that could be just to my interpretation (death of the author and all), some of which are almost too topical for the 2007-2011 release dates. major Umineko spoilers Identity (of various types), mental illness and truth/facts. I do wonder if religion/faith could be considered one of the themes that the story is sneakily commenting on. I'm pretty sure the VN's point was that no one knows what happened on the island. I'm not sure if I'd be thinking that Beatrice/Sayo/Yasu or whatever did any actual murders if it wasn't for someone making that claim on this thread and the fact that Beatrice seems to be blaming herself for them during the magic ending while leaving the island. The supernatural events in the the story are too prominent and on the forefront for me being able to separate them into their neat own box and make the story make sense that way. If we at least consider the character's narrative somewhat reliable in terms of time perception that makes Ange's entire skyscraper scene untenable without a supernatural explanation. Conveniently the definition of magic in-universe makes it impossible for magic to visibly manifest itself to doubters in a non-isolated settings. I didn't really try to complete Episode 8's puzzle without hints, I think I was 3-5 steps "ahead" minimum. The biggest hints for me were the narrative text (exploring it thoroughly in that format was a pain in the rear end) which made Nanjo's statements reliable and the fact there had to be minimum amount of victims for x amount of culprits to make sense. Frankly I had some trouble with Jessica's corpse since it didn't seem to imply there was a corpse, only that it was observed/seen at a glimpse. Now that I think about it I was being dumb. It became pretty obvious for me really early on that there had to be a culprit hiding in the room where Jessica and Krauss were killed, and that the dinner hall had survivors. Overall I enjoyed that the game prompted you to at least think about this case. I could've sworn Bernkastel sounded more emotional/agreeable/empathetic during episode 8 in moments with Featherine. I'm still not sure what to make of the Tohya parts fully since it transitioned in such a weird way to Ange remembering herself and returning, it almost seemed to indicate it was Ange and not Battler, but that doesn't make sense, I guess. I had the strongest goose bumps on opening the book of any VN experience ever, even though I expected it to end with nothing much. Much of the episode 8 had me just thinking "Yeah it was probably some stupid gas explosion from a heater or something that caused the bombs below the island to go off". I'm still not sure 100% sure if I should consider the Ushimoriya family utterly sick and dysfunctional or not. The illusion by Battler really tried to throw shade on that and I don't know if I can trust any of Ange's "resurfaced" memories. Did the left and right have some further hidden meaning than is obvious in the ending? I actually rather liked the "trick" ending, but Erika was creepy during it - Did Ange retain herself during that ending? That <good> made me wonder. It was sadly short though. The magic ending seemed fairly "realistic" before the Fukuin house scene. Which was incredibly dumb but I still bawled my eyes out. I made the mistake of skimming on youtube comments while I was checking the OST out and it's funny how that part of the "fandom" is pushing whatever theory they have as canon like the goats in the narrative itself, almost missing the entire point of a good amount of the story and its spirit. That being said is there any decent analysis on the plot/themes/allusions that I'm likely missing? The OST in general is amazing (and long). I was looking for tracks that caused tension/hype moments but I noticed it is filled with absolutely fantastic slower pieces as well as I went through it. I'm glad that Nate pointed out the existence of the PS3 patches. The voice acting has some pretty good moments and I grew to like Beatrice's VA over the course of the game. Probably my top 3 VN I've read despite some serious pacing issues especially in the beginning. Dessel fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Dec 19, 2018 |
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Dec 19, 2018 20:19
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Glad you ended up enjoying it Dessel! Whole game spoilers: You might be interested in reading the Extra TIPS that were supplementary material outside of the game too: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/TIPS I think the thing about ripping into the guts of it and really puzzling out every little bit is fun for a lot of people and interesting... but I think one of the major themes is that sometimes there's something more important than just cold, contextless fact, and everything served to make that point in order to save Ange in the end Also the Rosatrice true believers are just ridiculously funny
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Dec 19, 2018 21:25
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Yeah the theory I saw was Rosatrice all right Also RIP my idea for a Higurashi playthrough with the patch for now, I have an outdated Mangagamer bundle version (came with questions/answers arcs) that I bought in 2013. 5 years and I haven't finished Higurashi  Steam and VNs weren't a thing back then.
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Dec 19, 2018 21:31
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Dessel posted:Yeah the theory I saw was Rosatrice all right I also bought that version back then and haven't finished! The Steam release does look a lot better
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Dec 19, 2018 21:34
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There are three central aspects of the Umineko story and ending that I've more or less compartmentalized as being the crux of the story: One is of course the "simple" story of Battler and how he relates to Yasu. This is in essence the whole point of the games as orchestrated by Beato herself, and why there is more or less a dividing line in the story after EP4. By EP5, the game is "over" as far as Beatrice is concerned because she got what she wanted in that Battler learned the truth and reconciled with her, even if it was in the metaverse. This is a very simplified way of looking at this part of the story since it also encompasses so much of the twists and turns, whole character arcs that come and go between Battler/Beato/others, the entirety of some of the later EPs, etc., but it really just boils down to these two individuals coming to terms with each other and is something that is finished by the near halfway point of the story and we the audience are just not privy to the details until later. The other side of this is of course Ange, who we are initially led to believe is a hero who will arrive to solve the mystery and "save" her family. She, someone who is alienated by and alienated towards all those who might be close to her emotionally, seeks salvation in doing so. And because of the way her life has been (and arguably because of Bernkastel's influence), she is biased towards believing in dark and sinister assumptions about the events on the island in no small part because of the messages in a bottle and Hachijo Tohya's story. The end result however is ultimately...it doesn't matter, because there is no one alive left to care or do anything about the island's events, and Ange herself is not going to be saved by digging into the incident. The salvation that Ange ultimately is rewarded by is being able to move on with her life. Arriving at this epiphany is the totality of Ange's arc, and is an aspect that is in some ways an interesting contrast to how Higurashi plays out (without getting into details there, of course). And lastly, the more overall metaphysical commentary on the murders themselves by the "public", represented in various forms throughout the story. Sometimes it's the goats, sometimes it's characters like Bernkastel or Erika, and some characters like Ange and Hachijo Tohya jump back and forth on their roles in that capacity. But overall it is an aspect that serves as a commentary on the nature, roles, and structures of murder mysteries as a whole, as well as it would relate back to those affected by such incidents. The witch hunters and "goats" as seen in EP8 do not care for the anguish digging up the mystery's solutions would potentially cause Ange, or somehow actually provide closure to the matter. It's things like this for why there is a reason that Umineko EP5-EP8 are not "Answer" chapters like Higurashi's but rather "Breakdown" ones, despite the labels that Steam/MangaGamer affixed to them. Anyway a lot of that is over generalizing a lot of the story, but I'm glad you wound up enjoying it especially after some of your misgivings in earlier chapters. It's a story that was with me for a long while and one I had a very organic evolution of feelings about the more time removed from it. It's hard to imagine another VN producing similar feelings simply because of the insanity of its structure and purpose, even if I also think that I subjectively prefer other VNs like Fata Morgana in a lot of ways.
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Dec 19, 2018 22:37
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The episode 8 manga has a section called "Confession of the Golden Witch" which has much more explicit answers to things if you want to look at the game's guts.
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Dec 19, 2018 23:11
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I've always been ambivalent about the various Higurashi/Umineko adaptions for various reasons but the EP8 manga is pretty decent because it does feature some meaningful extra content. The three confessions chapters start here: https://mangadex.org/chapter/241596/1
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Dec 20, 2018 16:41
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Nate RFB posted:There are three central aspects of the Umineko story and ending that I've more or less compartmentalized as being the crux of the story: I feel like Fata Morgana and Umineko both take advantage of the medium in a way that can't really be achieved by another medium. I might actually prefer Umineko's episodes basically being fragments because it brings the entire metaphysical/meta nature of the episodes into the greater narrative in a somewhat logical fashion without being quite as disconnected as Fata Morgana's narrative (which was cohesive but not quite as interconnected). I actually checked some of the very beginning of the manga last night. The art isn't quite Ryukishi07 sprite bad, at least. Just from a short read it seems to be not the most horrible way of experiencing the content again because you can fit pieces of the mystery together and interpret character's actions/faces visually in a way that can't be done in the VN without further expenses. Talking of fitting things together I watched a youtube clip of Episode 4's ending and only on reviewing did I realize major full Umineko spoilers beyond Episode 4 the actual puncturing "rocks" are an obvious allusion (if not the very same rocks in some weird metaphysical way) as the ones Beatrice was thrown at as a baby.
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Dec 20, 2018 20:59
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I can't imagine either the magic fights or the intellectual fights without that score
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Dec 21, 2018 06:28
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the manga is good and has some absolutely incredible art for the key moments but I’d never recommend it in lieu of the VN just because of the loss of the soundtrack
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Dec 21, 2018 06:49
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Any VN recommendations during the steam/gog/etc sale?
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Dec 22, 2018 04:39
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The House in Fata Morgana is phenomenal and 50% off: https://store.steampowered.com/app/303310/The_House_in_Fata_Morgana/ edit: Nevermind, you read that already. There haven't really been any decent VNs released for non-superweebs lately.
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Dec 22, 2018 04:52
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Ryuga Death posted:Any VN recommendations during the steam/gog/etc sale? Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:The House in Fata Morgana is phenomenal and 50% off: https://store.steampowered.com/app/303310/The_House_in_Fata_Morgana/ I almost forgot 428: Shibuya Scramble. It's a great detective mystery VN. It comes highly recommended. The Flowers series (just parts one and two for now) are a rather good yuri romance series with a dash of mystery. Unfortunately their discount isn't very good this sale. If you have a high tolerance for anime bullshit, there's always the Muv Luv series (original plus Alternative). It starts off not much unlike those standard bishoujo VNs with a sense of humor that, uh, takes some getting used to (the official translation is 10x better than the old fan translation and is actually funny at times, thank god). Then poo poo gets wild. Then poo poo gets even wilder, and it never stops until the end of the combined 80+ hour journey. Root Double has a good discount, and is a solid mystery/thriller type thing along the same lines as 999 and such. I personally found that the pacing suffered near the end but it's still a neat experience and it's at a good price. If you have a PS4 or Vita, I also recommend keeping an eye out for good deals on Chaos;Child. It's part of the same series as Steins;Gate, and is an very strong mindfucky psychological thriller. I highly recommend it, but it's not available on PC (unless you use some questionably-legal fan-made port that ports the translation to the Japanese PC version). Huh, I guess there's stuff to recommend after just searching some. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Dec 22, 2018 |
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Dec 22, 2018 05:51
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Ryuga Death posted:Any VN recommendations during the steam/gog/etc sale? CLANNAD is 65% off if you haven't read it yet. Long but very classic.
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Dec 22, 2018 06:02
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I just bought Shibuya Scramble myself. I don't normally have a problem with buying games at full price, but I draw the line at paying 50 bucks for a drat VN. 30 is a little more palatable.
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Dec 22, 2018 06:13
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Thanks for the suggestions. I have 428 on my wishlist. Flower seems interesting. Root double certainly has a name. I remember there being some discussion of Muv Luv in this thread and there was a lot of back and forth about it? TalkLittle posted:CLANNAD is 65% off if you haven't read it yet. Long but very classic. I probably shouldn't be asking since it may ruin the story but is CLANNAD like a standard anime high school story? Can't really get much of a feel from the steam page.
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Dec 22, 2018 06:15
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Ryuga Death posted:I probably shouldn't be asking since it may ruin the story but is CLANNAD like a standard anime high school story? Can't really get much of a feel from the steam page. CLANNAD caters to people familiar with the high school dating sim setting, and you'll have to be comfortable with the dating sim aspects to get full enjoyment out of the VN, but there's a bit more to it. There's some mysterious scenes at the very beginning of the story, for example. It does play like a dating sim though, so it's okay to use a spoiler-free walkthrough to get to the story bits faster. Also seconding Muv-Luv because it's another real classic you have to read if you are into VNs. It and Clannad are both towards the top of the VNDB list sorted by rating: https://vndb.org/v/all?q=;fil=tagspoil-0;rfil=;o=d;s=rating
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Dec 22, 2018 06:41
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Umineko Chapter 3. (I’m much slower than Dessel because of E/N life stuff and also because the voice acting in this game is amazing and I listen to all of it.) Anyway, I’m looking forward to the Answer chapter that explains how the time-travelling, physical manifestation of one of Eva’s apparent multiple personalities became the new Beatrice, and how none of this is caused by supernatural forces even though several characters are now displaying Q-like powers.. As for the back story we get about that creepy fucker Kinzo holding Beatrice hostage in a secret mansion, that’s a reasonable explanation for why Beatrice hates him so much. But I still don’t get why she’s so sadistic towards people who had nothing to do with Kinzo’s actions. Shannon and Kanon for example probably weren’t even alive yet when Kinzo imprisoned Beatrice. Maybe one of the things the author is getting at with young Eva/Beatrice is that there isn’t anything unusual about Beatrice; that any middle school kid who gained that type of power would inevitably turn into a horrible rear end in a top hat. Finally, why didn’t the game end when Eva/young Eva and Rosa found the gold? Beatrice has stated several times that there are rules that even she must follow and that if someone finds the gold, she loses and everyone already dead will be revived. My current guess is that game continues because Eva and Rosa are idiots and didn’t immediately tell everyone else they’d found the gold. It’s going to be fun reading all the Umineko related black bars in this thread when I finally finish the game. Can’t wait.
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Dec 22, 2018 06:45
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Clannad isn't technically a "dating sim" per se, as there's no sim aspect, but it is definitely your typical route-based romantic visual novel in most ways, where your choices lead you down the path of one of the several heroines (or sometimes side characters), and you end up in a coming-of-age romance drama, with some routes being deeper and more involved than others. The main heroine being the deepest, where the story goes far beyond high school romance and becomes a much more serious story. Two things to note here are here are that you have to complete everything to get the true end still, and the choice system is very convoluted and lovely, where you often have to do things that seem counterproductive to end up on the route you want. The anime for it became really popular with regular anime fans, which is extremely rare for visual novel adaptations, so there's definitely something to it. Your enjoyment of the route-based romance formula will make or break your enjoyment of Clannad the VN. But Clannad the anime can be enjoyed by anyone willing to watch a lengthy, multi-season coming-of-age drama. I know a lot of people who end up just watching the anime, and that's okay too. But maybe give the VN a shot if you're willing to drop $18 to experiment with a kind of VN that isn't commonly discussed here. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Dec 22, 2018 |
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Dec 22, 2018 06:59
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You could try I/O, but somehow as a huge visual novel and mystery fan this is the only one that completely failed to grab me
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Dec 22, 2018 07:02
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TalkLittle posted:CLANNAD caters to people familiar with the high school dating sim setting, and you'll have to be comfortable with the dating sim aspects to get full enjoyment out of the VN, but there's a bit more to it. There's some mysterious scenes at the very beginning of the story, for example. It does play like a dating sim though, so it's okay to use a spoiler-free walkthrough to get to the story bits faster. Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Clannad isn't technically a "dating sim" per se, as there's no sim aspect, but it is definitely your typical route-based romantic visual novel in most ways, where your choices lead you down the path of one of the several heroines (or sometimes side characters), and you end up in a coming-of-age romance drama, with some routes being deeper and more involved than others. The main heroine being the deepest, where the story goes far beyond high school romance and becomes a much more serious story. Two things to note here are here are that you have to complete everything to get the true end still, and the choice system is very convoluted and lovely, where you often have to do things that seem counterproductive to end up on the route you want. I think the closest I've played to a route based romantic or dating sim was doki doki lit club and that was mostly a parody. Also, I thought date sims and route based romance stuff were the same things?
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Dec 22, 2018 08:04
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Selane posted:I just bought Shibuya Scramble myself. I don't normally have a problem with buying games at full price, but I draw the line at paying 50 bucks for a drat VN. 30 is a little more palatable. I'm fine paying full price for VNs if they're good but with a lot of VNs I have to read most of it to have a good sense of if I truly like it. Especially games that have some sort of driving mystery, because there are VNs that have well put together, satisfying mysteries. And then some games are titled G-Senjou no Maou. Fortunately, 428 Shibuya Scramble pressed the right buttons for me. I'd say it's definitely worth $50 but I agree that the $30 price sweetened the temptation to take the risk as well.
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Dec 22, 2018 08:16
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Ryuga Death posted:I think the closest I've played to a route based romantic or dating sim was doki doki lit club and that was mostly a parody. Also, I thought date sims and route based romance stuff were the same things? Yep CLANNAD plays like Doki Doki Literature Club mechanics-wise. I guess people have different definitions of "dating sim." For me I put emphasis on the "dating" part where the game tracks how nice you are to each character in order to get to their story route. Others put emphasis on the "simulation" part and maybe say a proper "dating sim" must have a planning calendar, RPG character stats, inventory system, etc. so by that definition CLANNAD is not a "sim." Whatevs 
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Dec 22, 2018 08:42
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Ryuga Death posted:I think the closest I've played to a route based romantic or dating sim was doki doki lit club and that was mostly a parody. Also, I thought date sims and route based romance stuff were the same things? I guess a lot of people end up calling them all dating sims, but true dating sims are games where there's a lot of gameplay involved in the actual dating part. Choosing date spots, picking the right dialogue choices to please your date, etc. As well as some life sim gameplay usually, like raising character stats by doing certain things in order to appeal to some characters more (this part is kind of like persona 3/4/5). Clannad has almost none of that. It's pure story, and the choices aren't so much about making characters like you, but are usually decision points that can set the story branching in different directions, or let you pick which character you want to see a scene for. And there's frequently not much actual "dating" either. It's mostly a meaningless semantics thing, I guess. Most people think of the two as the same, so if you hear someone say "dating sim" these days, there's a good chance they mean games like Clannad anyway. I think it's kind of reductive because when people think of the words "dating sim," they tend to get a distorted view of what these games are about, but I guess it doesn't really matter in the end. We've got no good terms for games like Clannad anyway. edit: sorry for dorking out over semantics. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Dec 22, 2018 |
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Dec 22, 2018 08:45
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I guess it's because nobody really makes classical dating sims anymore, and almost none of the ones that were made when they were more popular came out in English.
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Dec 22, 2018 09:30
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FractalSandwich posted:I guess it's because nobody really makes classical dating sims anymore, and almost none of the ones that were made when they were more popular came out in English. There are still fairly recent examples in Japan, but mostly for mobile platforms; Konami's still working on the latest edition of Love Plus. But yeah, outside of the mobile market I think the design space for them has been encroached upon by RPGs with heavy lifesim elements. Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:It's mostly a meaningless semantics thing, I guess. Most people think of the two as the same, so if you hear someone say "dating sim" these days, there's a good chance they mean games like Clannad anyway. I think it's kind of reductive because when people think of the words "dating sim," they tend to get a distorted view of what these games are about, but I guess it doesn't really matter in the end. We've got no good terms for games like Clannad anyway. There's always the option of just borrowing the Japanese term and using "ren'ai game" for games of any mechanical genre where pursuing romance is the primary focus, if you don't mind the fact that it will instantly mark you as a huge weeb
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Dec 22, 2018 10:39
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:
This was an interesting read. Didn't even know there were things like that, so don't be sorry. I'll think about Clannad, but I'm not sure about picking it up. I'm kind of worried if Clannad will feel like the characters are catering/pandering to you, the player, instead of interacting with a proper main character, if that makes sense. I was sort of having that issue with Doki Doki Lit Club where it felt a bit pandering but was glad that they weren't playing it straight. At least Kindred Spirits, so far, seems to be mostly watching other characters' stories. Ryuga Death fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Dec 22, 2018 |
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Dec 22, 2018 17:08
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Ryuga Death posted:This was an interesting read. Didn't even know there were things like that, so don't be sorry. I'll think about Clannad, but I'm not sure about picking it up. I'm kind of worried if Clannad will feel like the characters are catering/pandering to you, the player, instead of interacting with a proper main character, if that makes sense. I was sort of having that issue with Doki Doki Lit Club where it felt a bit pandering but was glad that they weren't playing it straight. At least Kindred Spirits, so far, seems to be mostly watching other characters' stories. Yeah I'm not sure about Clannad specifically but I also dislike when you're just a blatant self-insert, and though there's a lot of those, there are still a number of games where you play as a more defined sort of character. I'm always interested in hearing about more of them, especially female protags with personality
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Dec 22, 2018 17:39
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This mostly because I prefer the anime version where his voice actor and general direction was superlative, but I do think CLANNAD does a decent job of making Tomoya his own, well-realized character and not just a self-insert. CLANNAD is very much what it says on the tin, but I do think it's the best overall representation of that type of story in a VN. It was Key at their peak, for better or worse. If you had to play one of those sort of stories, that's the one I would recommend. However I would probably just as well also say, "just watch the anime instead" because it's far less obtuse to get through and is in general just a very solid product.
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Dec 22, 2018 20:01
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