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All I'm going to say about this is that I read one of those Gotrek and Felix books that people say are good (Skavenslayer - it wasn't, it was very hacky stuff even with my lowered expectations) but even that book, written in 1999 and about as 'canon' as the lore ever gets, mentioned there being dark-skinned Arabyans and so on in a tavern in Nuln - probably because describing variety of that kind is an easy way to add depth to a setting. So it's hardly unprecedented to say 'the Empire would be multicultural to a degree'. In other news I'm doing a Norsca campaign and finding it a lot more manageable in the recent patch. I didn't have the usual Mortal Empires Norsca 50-turn hellwar in Kislev while also diverting forces to fight off Dark Elves because the Dark Elves actually left me alone, so I was able to overwhelm the Kislevites and then focus on raiding the coasts as I wanted to do in the first place.
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Dec 19, 2018 19:24
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It totally would be because Marienburg and Altdorf are specifically called out as very cosmopolitan cities. Hell, Kislev also has a cosmopolitan area in Erengrad, where a famous boyar adapted Empire tactics in the form of guns and halberds because he saw them kick Chaos rear end. That's trade for you.
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Dec 19, 2018 19:29
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Whorelord posted:I feel like there's way more barriers that stop people migrating in the Old World. Warhammer Fantasy has a Silk Road equivalent that functions the exact same except occasionally caravans get murdered by greenskins. It's still widely used.
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Dec 19, 2018 19:30
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I always think it's funny, the whole "Empire is a human surrogate so shouldn't have monsters, etc." You mean to tell me that humanity in a fantasy world wouldn't break down exotic animals for the purposes of war, or employ ramshackle gigantic machinery in order to counter trolls and the like? Please. We made tanks and fighter jets in real life to counter just other little human dudes. Empire are real world humanity's surrogates because within that big land ship is just a bunch of humans who probably didn't ace ALL of their exams but did good enough. And those dudes riding the gryphons aren't genetically engineered things they're just dudes who worked really hard to get where they are. Even the wizards are just Ph. D. students who don't WANT to drown their enemies in thorns, they want to research and analyze exotic flora but the market demands they do singular, short-term, productive things like blast goblins with their big nature orbs so they find work as a battlemage.
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Dec 19, 2018 19:40
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Kanos posted:Warhammer Fantasy has a Silk Road equivalent that functions the exact same except occasionally caravans get murdered by greenskins. It's still widely used. It kind of balances out when you can hire a bunch of Ogres and some wizards and guys with firearms to protect your poo poo.
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Dec 19, 2018 19:41
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jokes posted:You mean to tell me that humanity in a fantasy world wouldn't break down exotic animals for the purposes of war it's more like "gryphons, dragons and other big/scary animals would be the first to go once we had the technology to kill them". For proof of this, see: the real world
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Dec 19, 2018 19:43
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Lets play a game called count the amount of big un's!   Finally broken the greenskins and things are not progressing as usual in other parts as well. Wissenland are kicking the vampires asses in Sylvania and somehow the dwarfhold next to karaz-a-karak have conquered almost the entire southern part of the badlands and mountains.  Not complaining though, next enemey will probably end up being Sartosa or Clan Mors.
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Dec 19, 2018 19:45
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toasterwarrior posted:It totally would be because Marienburg and Altdorf are specifically called out as very cosmopolitan cities. Hell, Kislev also has a cosmopolitan area in Erengrad, where a famous boyar adapted Empire tactics in the form of guns and halberds because he saw them kick Chaos rear end. That's trade for you. the empire in most sourcebooks is all about river-based trade and would certainly have diverse range of people as a result. i think there would be even more inter-mixing since human on human racism based on skin color would be ridiculous in a setting where you're neighbors with other species.
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Dec 19, 2018 19:48
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peer posted:it's more like "gryphons, dragons and other big/scary animals would be the first to go once we had the technology to kill them". For proof of this, see: the real world Elephants were a mainstay of Persian Armies and lots of anti-Roman forces based around Africa and they're the biggest animal we've ever had. And they're not even particularly good at war like a dragon would be.
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Dec 19, 2018 19:52
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jokes posted:Elephants were a mainstay of Persian Armies and lots of anti-Roman forces based around Africa and they're the biggest animal we've ever had. And they're not even particularly good at war like a dragon would be. In fact they were such a mainstay that several species went extinct 
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Dec 19, 2018 19:55
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They need to put cannons on the back of a demigryph
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Dec 19, 2018 19:58
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Outrider Demigryphs (Blunderbuss)
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Dec 19, 2018 19:59
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toasterwarrior posted:Outrider Demigryphs (Blunderbuss) Give them Lore of Death and Blessing of the Lady too and then we're cooking with Radious charcoal.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:00
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jokes posted:I always think it's funny, the whole "Empire is a human surrogate so shouldn't have monsters, etc." It's mostly that the flavor of the faction for a lot of people is that they're plucky underdog normal dudes who somehow manage to stave off poncy five thousand year old elves on dragons, nightmarish chittering hordes of monsters, and legions of giant evil death metal supermen powered by Satan despite being plucky underdog normal dudes. There's a certain romance to a shaky line of state troopers with nothing but their floppy hats, their halberds and handguns, and their giant brass balls facing down perdition and coming out the other side intact. That's dulled a bit when it turns out that the plucky underdog state troopers actually had a tank column and a couple regiments of gryphons backing them up. jokes posted:Elephants were a mainstay of Persian Armies and lots of anti-Roman forces based around Africa and they're the biggest animal we've ever had. And they're not even particularly good at war like a dragon would be. Elephants are probably a bad example for the practicality of humans using war beasts because they were amazingly terrible at being war beasts. They were insanely difficult to feed and move large distances and were basically uncontrollable in battle because they'd go apeshit with panic at the drop of a hat. They were mostly used as prestige wonder weapons by ancient armies who were overawed by their size and power but that size and power didn't usually translate to being super useful. Probably the most famous example of this was Hannibal's defeat at Zama, where his giant-rear end column of war elephants were defeated by the Romans simply opening their ranks and letting the elephants charge through and keep going because they couldn't be turned around. Well, most of them; some of them panicked and stampeded into Hannibal's own flank and hosed it up something fierce. Kanos fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Dec 19, 2018 |
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Dec 19, 2018 20:02
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Kanos posted:Elephants are probably a bad example for the practicality of humans using war beasts because they were amazingly terrible at being war beasts. They were insanely difficult to feed and move large distances and were basically uncontrollable in battle because they'd go apeshit with panic at the drop of a hat. They were mostly used as prestige wonder weapons by ancient armies who were overawed by their size and power but that size and power didn't usually translate to being super useful. This just supports the case that they would use animals that very obviously WOULD do well in battle, eg. dragons and crap.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:05
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Elephants were never the mainstay of any Persian army of any historical Persian empire.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:06
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Now you see why I use the Tabletop Unit Cap mod, nothing like only having 2 or 3 Demigryph units in an army at best to keep that romance alive.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:06
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Senethro posted:You're not wrong at all. You've taken high quality territory with lots of big settlements and trade goods, nipped a significant vampiric threat in the bud, all done really quickly. You should be throwing up fast moneymakers in the new provinces, centralizing your investment on your capital so you gain access to the Empire's high quality units, and maybe sending a diplomatic unit to the elves or southern human realms to open up trade options. From the look of your map the eastern vampires have been busy and you should be scouting them constantly so that when they come, you are ready and in an ambush posture. From sacking some of the bigger Brettonian cities and now some Norscan cities Altdorf has the Imperial Palace and the other top tier 10k Academy building. I knocked down all of the farms and am replacing them with money makers and/or bigger garrisons in Reikland now that it is max growth. Yeah Carstein and the Vampire Counts have been active so KARL FRANZ and a second army are marching on the nearest Vampire holding. There are several razed settlements over there too that I may colonize - should I recruit an army of cheap Spearmen to settle the razed cities with? Does that even make a difference if I settle it with more dudes rather than less? Ammanas posted:taking brettonia as empire is fine and will help you get mega rich, but chaos supplementary armies do spawn in the ocean and will attack you. youll need 2+ armies to defend that territory once the chaos invasion begins.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:10
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Whorelord posted:"It issa mucha disputed as to what are da besta weapons fora making de siege. You gotta de stona throwers anna de bolt throwers, anna alla kinda cannons. Gunpowder is a greata invention. Iffa you can getta holda of a few mortars or bombards, you canna make de big holes in de walls. But you gotta have de right ammunition. So a stona thrower canna be justa as good. For ammunition, you can digga uppa de rocks 'an de stones, our use de big balls, or you can shoot dayd peoples over the wall to make the place stink. You canna even maka de spaghetti and shoota dat, or de razor-edged pizza." - official lore This is actually true. Parts of the old DoW army book has quotes written exactly like that. It might be bordering on being a little bit problematic.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:12
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Randarkman posted:This is actually true. Parts of the old DoW army book has quotes written exactly like that. It might be bordering on being a little bit problematic. IIRC some sourcebook about fighting the Skaven has a Tilean or Estalian character talking like that.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:16
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Isn't the majority of WHFB's lore written from the Empire's perspective? The whole "plucky humans up against insurmountable odds" definitely reads like state propoganda when we're talking about the faction that will happily accept help from literally anybody, including rivals and enemies, when the chips are down.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:18
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Do we have any idea when the upcoming patch is coming out of beta? I've been holding off on playing until it does because I don't want to deal with all nonsense going on right now with separate versions of mods depending on whether or not you've opted in.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:22
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Acute Grill posted:Isn't the majority of WHFB's lore written from the Empire's perspective? The whole "plucky humans up against insurmountable odds" definitely reads like state propoganda when we're talking about the faction that will happily accept help from literally anybody, including rivals and enemies, when the chips are down. Something something "will to power"
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Dec 19, 2018 20:23
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Just had an idea for dwarf rites. One where you recruit slayers, and get an amount equal to unsettled grudges.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:23
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Vargs posted:Do we have any idea when the upcoming patch is coming out of beta? I've been holding off on playing until it does because I don't want to deal with all nonsense going on right now with separate versions of mods depending on whether or not you've opted in. Should go live on the next DLC release so either February (super unlikely) or April/June or so.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:27
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Yeah, just take the hit if you really want to play, it's not that bad. It's probably going to be a while.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:29
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Oh, I thought the Festag update was going to release separate from any DLC. And, in fact, maybe on Christmas.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:39
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peer posted:medieval germany had pocs so why can't fantasy-medieval-germany without it being "shoved in" p sure the empire is way more xenophobic than irl medieval europe, given the actual proven existence of evil mutants who want to kill everyone
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Dec 19, 2018 20:39
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peer posted:it's more like "gryphons, dragons and other big/scary animals would be the first to go once we had the technology to kill them". For proof of this, see: the real world War elephants, horses and camels are a strong counter point. Anything we could tame gets exploited in some way as mounts. Kanos posted:
Scipio's troops were specifically trained to defeat elephants. War Elephants have been a mainstay for everyone from the Ancient Indians to the Carthaginians to the Sassanid Persians. They were very effective as a shock / terror weapon more often than not logistical issues aside. MikeC fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Dec 19, 2018 |
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Dec 19, 2018 20:47
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I think the "Plucky humans" thing can handle a bit of monsters and magic and technology. To me it's less "steel, faith, and the indomitable human resolve will triumph over evil" (unless you're doing a Volkmar campaign) and more "poo poo these guys have been making do with steel and faith for centuries and somehow aren't dead, and one time we gave them gunpowder and they turned it into hosed up unreliable self-propelled bombs that they use to massacre infantry in about 5 minutes" It's resourcefulness and ingenuity in the face of no natural advantages, not "blindly using pointy sticks and numbers"
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Dec 19, 2018 20:51
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ChickenWing posted:I think the "Plucky humans" thing can handle a bit of monsters and magic and technology. To me it's less "steel, faith, and the indomitable human resolve will triumph over evil" (unless you're doing a Volkmar campaign) and more "poo poo these guys have been making do with steel and faith for centuries and somehow aren't dead, and one time we gave them gunpowder and they turned it into hosed up unreliable self-propelled bombs that they use to massacre infantry in about 5 minutes" Oh definitely, the Empire will use any advantage it can get. My issue with Demigryph knights isn't as much that it's not something the Empire wouldn't do as it being obvious that it's something introduced relatively late in WFB lifecycle to sell an expensive monstrous cavalry model, and also becuase nearly everyone started getting monstrous cavalry of some sort. The Empire has always had access to fantastical beasts and such, it's just that there weren't that many and like I said they almost seemed more like badges of office and status symbols for rulers than strictly utilitarian war beasts, which I find more interesting than the Empire now suddenly just having these nonflying Gryphon things.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:56
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MikeC posted:War elephants, horses and camels are a strong counter point. Anything we could tame gets exploited in some way as mounts. Like I said, several species of (war) elephant went extinct (in addition to other large mammals) from human overexploitation/deforestation/hunting even though they weren't especially effective once the opposition knew to expect them, and an elephant doesn't even pose an existential threat to human villages the way a dragon would. I'm sure Warhammer humans would 100% wipe out whichever species of monster they were able, but this is a grognardy as hell argument and I'm willing to give it up and instead reiterate how cool Aranessa is 
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Dec 19, 2018 20:57
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peer posted:Like I said, several species of (war) elephant went extinct (in addition to other large mammals) from human overexploitation/deforestation/hunting even though they weren't especially effective once the opposition knew to expect them, and an elephant doesn't even pose an existential threat to human villages the way a dragon would. I'm sure Warhammer humans would 100% wipe out whichever species of monster they were able, but this is a grognardy as hell argument and I'm willing to give it up and instead reiterate how cool Aranessa is You make it sound like it is easy to defeat war elephants when it is clearly not the case. Successive generations, cultures and talented generals of Antiquity made it their business to get war elephants precisely because they are hard to deal with. Even the Romans made extensive efforts to retain them once they conquered the near east. By no means did war elephants go extinct. They were used by Asian powers well into the 19th century. The primary reason why they stopped being used was because of massed powder. Anything that youncan tame will be used. Other predators that were hunted down was because they were not species you could tame and control. Now if you want to argue that fake creatues in a fake setting can't be tamed then that is your business.
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Dec 19, 2018 21:07
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Randarkman posted:Oh definitely, the Empire will use any advantage it can get. My issue with Demigryph knights isn't as much that it's not something the Empire wouldn't do as it being obvious that it's something introduced relatively late in WFB lifecycle to sell an expensive monstrous cavalry model, and also becuase nearly everyone started getting monstrous cavalry of some sort. The Empire has always had access to fantastical beasts and such, it's just that there weren't that many and like I said they almost seemed more like badges of office and status symbols for rulers than strictly utilitarian war beasts, which I find more interesting than the Empire now suddenly just having these nonflying Gryphon things. I mean, meh? I think that limited supply is pretty well reflected by it being a top-tier unit. Like obviously when you're rockin' your campaign you're going to have more than is lore-accurate, but that's also true of stuff like steam tanks and probably half of the other races' top-tier units as well. Gameplay abstraction of scarcity only goes so far, unless it's literally a mechanic of the faction (TK, Bess)
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Dec 19, 2018 21:12
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MikeC posted:By no means did war elephants go extinct. I know elephants still exist. What I said was several species of elephant went extinct because of human exploitation, including use in war. But anyway yes, we're arguing over whether a fictional people would have killed fictional animals, so disagreeing is fine
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Dec 19, 2018 21:13
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War elephants continued for a really long time, their use just evolved from stepping on people to logistics. The last recorded use of an elephant in battle is one from Baghdad zoo getting drafted into being a living artillery tractor in 1987.
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Dec 19, 2018 21:33
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MikeC posted:By no means did war elephants go extinct. They were used by Asian powers well into the 19th century. The primary reason why they stopped being used was because of massed powder. MikeC posted:You make it sound like it is easy to defeat war elephants when it is clearly not the case. Successive generations, cultures and talented generals of Antiquity made it their business to get war elephants precisely because they are hard to deal with. Even the Romans made extensive efforts to retain them once they conquered the near east. The Romans for example had a huge hard on for Alexander the Great. So importing elephants from the east could easily have been a way to emulate Alexander.
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Dec 19, 2018 21:39
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MikeC posted:War elephants, horses and camels are a strong counter point. Anything we could tame gets exploited in some way as mounts. Those are all herbivores though. There's no reason to exterminate horses, but gryphons could easily get the wolf/lion treatment.
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Dec 19, 2018 21:45
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No self-respecting human government would ever just, like, waste an incredible amount of resources in furtherance of a minor (if not actually non-existent) military advantage. It is preposterous to assume so. Dragons are dangerous and because of the inherent danger of a thing, humans would never use it towards a military purpose. Empire rules, they embrace the high fantasy of their setting. I imagine that the theoretical basis of Empire is "what a group of HRE humans would do if they got teleported into the WHFB world", and the faction is better because of it. It's believable that if like a Napoleonic army was teleported into Middle Earth they'd probably enslave hobbits and elfs and whoever, torture whoever they can to harness magic, learn to breed their own orc armies, etc., they'd just be Sauron but without a single wizard leading it and a huge bureaucracy but way more successful at it. But along the way they would still be leaning on peasants as their frontline troops and conscripting artillery manufacturers, etc.
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Dec 19, 2018 21:47
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Empire is cool and all,though the most fictional thing about all those exotic mounts is the idea that they could be tamed in the first place (I guess 'magic' addresses that problem). I mean I guess humans could sorta tame griffins the same way falconers trained their birds "This weird creature keeps directing me to easy prey and comfy roosting spots so imma follow him around. Also he was the first thing I saw when I hatched so I'm just gonna assume he's a weird looking griffon". Dragons I assume are more sentient, like trolls or giants. It's interesting that Dwarves are the only race that doesn't use ANY animals whatsoever in combat. They raise goats for food, but don't use them as beasts of burden or anything like that. Balance reasons aside, I guess they just aren't animal lovers?
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Dec 19, 2018 21:55
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