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Panfilo posted:Empire is cool and all,though the most fictional thing about all those exotic mounts is the idea that they could be tamed in the first place (I guess 'magic' addresses that problem). I mean I guess humans could sorta tame griffins the same way falconers trained their birds "This weird creature keeps directing me to easy prey and comfy roosting spots so imma follow him around. Also he was the first thing I saw when I hatched so I'm just gonna assume he's a weird looking griffon". Or maybe they are and don't want to expore the animals to the horrors of war. 
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Dec 19, 2018 22:00
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Panfilo posted:It's interesting that Dwarves are the only race that doesn't use ANY animals whatsoever in combat. They raise goats for food, but don't use them as beasts of burden or anything like that. Balance reasons aside, I guess they just aren't animal lovers?
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Dec 19, 2018 22:00
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I think the original designers took seriously the idea that they live underground and do most of their fighting there. Plus, they have little tolerance for unreliable things so they'd be constantly grudgin' their own war mounts and bashing their brains out.
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Dec 19, 2018 22:02
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Do dwarfs have farms or do they just eat like the decaying bodies of the billions of goblins/skaven they shoot and shovel off their front porch every morning.
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Dec 19, 2018 22:06
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Actually, I just realized the reason : Because their Ancestors didn't. It isn't any practical logic. If their ancestors didn't need to go around riding goats or siccing Umber Hulks at their enemies, then present day Dwarves probably don't think it's necessary.
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Dec 19, 2018 22:07
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jokes posted:Do dwarfs have farms or do they just eat like the decaying bodies of the billions of goblins/skaven they shoot and shovel off their front porch every morning. Yeah they grow Barley on mountainsides (they they grind up with gravel to make bread that probably has the texture and durability of concrete) as well as goats. Though I assumed they drank so much beer that they probably didn't need to eat much on top of that.
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Dec 19, 2018 22:09
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Panfilo posted:Empire is cool and all,though the most fictional thing about all those exotic mounts is the idea that they could be tamed in the first place (I guess 'magic' addresses that problem). I mean I guess humans could sorta tame griffins the same way falconers trained their birds "This weird creature keeps directing me to easy prey and comfy roosting spots so imma follow him around. Also he was the first thing I saw when I hatched so I'm just gonna assume he's a weird looking griffon". The sea-elves in Age of Sigmar found their monsters unable to be tamed, so they blinded them and used magic to mentally enslave them instead. Easy.
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Dec 19, 2018 22:27
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Plavski posted:The sea-elves in Age of Sigmar found their monsters unable to be tamed, so they blinded them and used magic to mentally enslave them instead. Easy. Isn't that more or less what the dark elves do?
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Dec 19, 2018 22:32
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peer posted:I know elephants still exist. What I said was several species of elephant went extinct because of human exploitation, including use in war. But anyway yes, we're arguing over whether a fictional people would have killed fictional animals, so disagreeing is fine As far as I am aware only one species of elephant used in war, the North African elephant, has gone extinct. And all reasons for this point to them being over exploitated for Roman games, which also caused several other species to go extinct. I imagine use in war did a number on their population but I also imagine that at somepoint someone set up a stable herd population becauses finding,capturing, breaking, and training wild elephants constantly enough to be a viable army force seems dumb. Edit: I was mistaken, the Chinese elephant species also appears to have been used in war sporadically and also went extinct. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Dec 19, 2018 |
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Dec 19, 2018 22:37
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Telsa Cola posted:As far as I am aware only one species of elephant used in war, the North African elephant, has gone extinct. I'm like 85% sure there was a syrian or mesopotamian species or subspecies that bit the dust as well but maybe I'm misremembering. Whateverrrrrrrrr
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Dec 19, 2018 22:40
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I dont know posted:Isn't that more or less what the dark elves do? Dark elves do a lot of breeding in captivity, or just steal the juveniles from nests, with only big rare monsters like the Kharidbyss requiring magical binding. They don't blind any of their monsters either.
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Dec 19, 2018 22:41
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peer posted:I'm like 85% sure there was a syrian or mesopotamian species or subspecies that bit the dust as well but maybe I'm misremembering. Whateverrrrrrrrr So the premise that "If there were big beasts useful for war, they would be exterminated" which was basically the entire point you've been making, doesn't stand up when compared to Elephants on Earth. Uh I guess one species may have died out during all the titanic shifts that happened in the environment from 1900 - today. Great stuff 
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Dec 19, 2018 22:41
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peer posted:I'm like 85% sure there was a syrian or mesopotamian species or subspecies that bit the dust as well but maybe I'm misremembering. Whateverrrrrrrrr I edited by post and there is a chinese species. The Syrian species is suggested to be Asian elephants imported or something. Not its own species.
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Dec 19, 2018 22:42
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Panfilo posted:Actually, I just realized the reason : I remember from my WFB dwarf army book in 1998 that thunderers caused some consternation with their willingness to trust a technology that had been in regular use for many hundreds of years. Because the ancestors didn't have gunpowder, why not just use a good reliable crossbow like dawi should? All these newfangled things that are less than 1000 years old is just un dwarfish!
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Dec 19, 2018 22:46
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Ham Sandwiches posted:So the premise that "If there were big beasts useful for war, they would be exterminated" which was basically the entire point you've been making, doesn't stand up when compared to Elephants on Earth. Uh I guess one species may have died out during all the titanic shifts that happened in the environment from 1900 - today. Great stuff I don't know why this is so hard. Elephants were useful in war and as beasts of burden (ie: there was incentive to keep them alive), and didn't pose a significant threat to human communities, and we still managed to wipe out at least two or three species or subspecies through overexploitation before our technology even hit gunpowder level. Fictional beasts in Warhammer would presumably be subject to the same enslavement, displacement, poaching etc, Warhammer humans have significantly more killy technology than the romans had, and additionally dragons or chimera or whatever are dangerous enough to eat entire villages. So why the gently caress do we keep arguing about it
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Dec 19, 2018 22:51
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peer posted:I don't know why this is so hard. Elephants were useful in war and as beasts of burden (ie: there was incentive to keep them alive), and didn't pose a significant threat to human communities, and we still managed to wipe out at least two or three species or subspecies through overexploitation before our technology even hit gunpowder level. Fictional beasts in Warhammer would presumably be subject to the same enslavement, displacement, poaching etc, Warhammer humans have significantly more killy technology than the romans had, and additionally dragons or chimera or whatever are dangerous enough to eat entire villages. So why the gently caress do we keep arguing about it Because you made a strange point that the fictional societies of a world under siege by extradimensional demonic forces literally trying to enslave them along with murderous rats and goatfuckers would be too worried about the health & safety concerns of monstrous animals to use them to try to stay alive / not possessed. How does this make sense, in terms of priorities?
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Dec 19, 2018 22:55
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peer posted:I don't know why this is so hard. Elephants were useful in war and as beasts of burden (ie: there was incentive to keep them alive), and didn't pose a significant threat to human communities, and we still managed to wipe out at least two or three species or subspecies through overexploitation before our technology even hit gunpowder level. Fictional beasts in Warhammer would presumably be subject to the same enslavement, displacement, poaching etc, Warhammer humans have significantly more killy technology than the romans had, and additionally dragons or chimera or whatever are dangerous enough to eat entire villages. So why the gently caress do we keep arguing about it In top of the fact that many of the elephant species used in war did go extinct, people claiming that large predatory animals would obviously be bred and trained for war instead of being hunted to extinction need to explain why lions, tigers, and other great cats weren't bred and trained for war. Or wolves, for that matter. Basically, the value gained from trying to take or capture large, monstrous beasts is probably less than the advantages you get from simply purging them from your lands.
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Dec 19, 2018 23:00
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Ravenfood posted:In top of the fact that many of the elephant species used in war did go extinct, people claiming that large predatory animals would obviously be bred and trained for war instead of being hunted to extinction need to explain why lions, tigers, and other great cats weren't bred and trained for war. Or wolves, for that matter. Uh, war dogs? People likely tried, but domestication is tricky with certain species. Cheetahs are one of the great cats it works well with and they were used as hunting animals for awhile. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Dec 19, 2018 |
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Dec 19, 2018 23:02
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Telsa Cola posted:I edited by post and there is a chinese species. The Syrian species is suggested to be Asian elephants imported or something. Not its own species. The Syrian elephants were Asian Elephants but a smaller subspecies native to the area. They'd gone into sharp decline by the time recorded history began and were probably completely extinct by the year zero. So some of the early references to middle eastern war elephants might have been native Syrian Elephants but other then that they would have been North African Elephants or imported Indian Elephants. Habitat destruction, hunting, and general desertification were probably what killed off the Syrian subspecies and then North African species rather then use as war elephants
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Dec 19, 2018 23:18
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How the Empire tamed Demigryphs, a story: Helmut: that is one cute chicken cat
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Dec 19, 2018 23:19
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Demigryphs have been domesticated by the Empire if you're playing WFB 8th edition, Age of Sigmar or Total War: Warhammer, and in enough number to fit whatever army slots they have. Any justification is post-factual and can be an interesting exercise in world-building, but they are there and there is no use arguing against it. If you're playing WFB 7th edition or earlier or a set of house-rules (or mods) of the above then there are no domesticated Demigryphs. If you're playing any edition of WFRP, it is up to the GM to decide the availability of domesticated Gryphons, Demigryphs or any other creatures fair and foul.
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Dec 19, 2018 23:23
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Telsa Cola posted:Uh, war dogs? Dogs were not used in any significant military capacity outside of videogames afaik. Hunting, sure. And I'd believe people tried, but given that predators weren't used as war animals and the two main species humans did use were herd herbivores who also doubled as domestic users, maybe that says something. But also magic so who knows.
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Dec 19, 2018 23:28
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peer posted:I don't know why this is so hard. Elephants were useful in war and as beasts of burden (ie: there was incentive to keep them alive), and didn't pose a significant threat to human communities, and we still managed to wipe out at least two or three species or subspecies through overexploitation before our technology even hit gunpowder level. Fictional beasts in Warhammer would presumably be subject to the same enslavement, displacement, poaching etc, Warhammer humans have significantly more killy technology than the romans had, and additionally dragons or chimera or whatever are dangerous enough to eat entire villages.So why the gently caress do we keep arguing about it Because it's fun I think extrapolating IRL extinction trends to Warhammer is mistaken. Warhammer humans might be significantly better at killing then historical cultures that wiped out large species but the Warhammer world is a far far more dangerous place and so are the the large species. If something like a warhammer dragons existed in the real world, they would have been more likely to drive humans to extinction then vice-versa. Even if we were to assume that humans would have the upper-hand in areas where they existed and so dragon habitat would eventually shrink as human habitat increased, the area of the warhammer world that's human habitat is far smaller then real life. Something like the Drakenwald forest would act as a refugia to species in the same way that the area around Chernobyl has become a haven for wolves and a center of their repopulation into other areas. And Drakenwald is supposed to be goddamn gigantic like over 500 miles across, which is far larger then any real world equivalent, and the Warhammer is filled with similar areas. Orcs/Beastmen would probably be the significant threats to Warhammer species
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Dec 19, 2018 23:47
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Dragons in Warhammer are sentient so now I am imagining Karl and pals going to play poker with his dragon in the zoo. 
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Dec 19, 2018 23:47
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edit: this post depressed myself so it's gone
peer fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Dec 19, 2018 |
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Dec 19, 2018 23:48
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If a dragon exists, and it has the power to raze a village with next to zero risk, that's a different "should we consider harnessing this thing" consideration than a dog or tiger. A dragon is basically a modern tank on a civil war battlefield. I'm sure a couple nobles wouldn't mind sacrificing a few hundred peasants to go and wrangle something like that. Especially if it's sentient and can be reasoned with.
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Dec 19, 2018 23:52
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Ravenfood posted:Dogs were not used in any significant military capacity outside of videogames afaik. Hunting, sure. And I'd believe people tried, but given that predators weren't used as war animals and the two main species humans did use were herd herbivores who also doubled as domestic users, maybe that says something. Total wars depiction of a organized unit of all dogs is pure fantasy but so are most of its depictions of organized units of humans. A regular unit all wearing roughly the same armor and carrying the same weapon is something that could be roughly applied to the romans and greeks but not to most of the cultures that Total War has featured. But dogs as something that accompanied a unit to battle were pretty common in warfare for large amounts of history. Especially in irregular and small scale warfare (which was the majority of warfare). The Irish Wolfhound, for instance, was specifically bred as a war dog and were apparently so aces at pulling guys off horses that the English ended up banning them SickZip fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Dec 19, 2018 |
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Dec 19, 2018 23:56
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ZearothK posted:If you're playing any edition of WFRP, it is up to the GM to decide the availability of domesticated Gryphons, Demigryphs or any other creatures fair and fowl. 
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Dec 20, 2018 01:16
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All I want to know is what motherfucker saw a loving Griffon and was like "yeah, I'm gonna ride that bitch". How loving insane do you have to be to gently caress with a giant, flying lion hawk?
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Dec 20, 2018 01:30
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"Gunther hold my beer. Imma see how high up I can get that big catpigeon before I fall off".
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Dec 20, 2018 01:35
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I dont know posted:Isn't that more or less what the dark elves do? Dark Elves loving LOVE breaking the wills of their "lessers" to prove their superiority. So it's less taming and more just utterly beating down the animal physically and mentally till it fears to bare its fangs at a Beastmaster, so to speak. Anything that cannot be broken typically dies during the process when the screws get turned too tight. Gonkish posted:All I want to know is what motherfucker saw a loving Griffon and was like "yeah, I'm gonna ride that bitch". How loving insane do you have to be to gently caress with a giant, flying lion hawk? When it comes to training a Griffon you just have to think of your extremities as collateral spent in the process of taming a majestic and loyal beast of war. That might sound terrible but look at it this way! In Bretonnia tolls are typically charged according to the number of limbs you have, so you can go travelling once you retire from the Griffon-taming game to go travel the vineyards on the cheap! That's why in Bretonnia the term "Costing an arm and a leg" means a good bargain.
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Dec 20, 2018 02:06
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I’m not sure if that is canon or not but I’m going to consider it true. Brettonia rules. (As long you aren’t a peasant)
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Dec 20, 2018 03:04
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Dudes with hats are neat but have you SEEN the gently caress-off artillery and zombie gunners led by a batshit crazy pirate? Oh yea there's an angry boat walkin around shooting some guys over there and half of a very pissed off dude soloing 60 other guys.
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Dec 20, 2018 06:16
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Large monstrous mounts are generally described as being reared from birth with eggs stolen from the wild. The wild ones are only tamable with magic.
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Dec 20, 2018 14:53
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Knights looking to become Demigryph riders are described as either successful or dead, as I recall.
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Dec 20, 2018 14:57
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I keep seeing people say they beat the Vampire Coast campaign in 90 turns and I'm here on turn 60 having barely consolidated two provinces and gotten my first piece of eight. I dunno why the AI always seems to field better armies than me early on, its always extra pronounced as a faction that relies on zombies until third or fourth tier buildings ed: if you confederate and get the other Legendary Lords, do they also have their dope flagships? Frog Act fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Dec 20, 2018 |
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Dec 20, 2018 16:37
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You are undead. Bring *more*.
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Dec 20, 2018 16:52
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Fangz posted:You are undead. Bring *more*. Yeah I'm trying to do what I did with the Vampire Counts where I always had one or two armies with zombies and support units trailing my main army with my most chevron'd guys and RoR. I figured that'd be difficult at sea and I'd rely on just Harkon but I need the meat and extra slots in Harkon's army. I just tried out animated hulks and they got owned pretty quickly compared to prometheans, but they were up against Ork big uns and Wolf Riders so it was less than ideal. Do you guys use them at all?
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Dec 20, 2018 16:54
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I’m telling you guys, 7 handgunners, 7 polezombies, your lord, another caster, queen bess, and some rotting prometheans. 7 handgunners will melt anything. I played VC a lot so switching to a faction with ranged weapons was a huge change but VC are really fun & strong. It rules to have your backline getting hit by cavalry archers and just turn them around to return fire till the morale of your opponents breaks, then go right back to shooting into the mosh pit in the front.
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Dec 20, 2018 17:13
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Chakan posted:I’m telling you guys, 7 handgunners, 7 polezombies, your lord, another caster, queen bess, and some rotting prometheans. 7 handgunners will melt anything. I played VC a lot so switching to a faction with ranged weapons was a huge change but VC are really fun & strong. It rules to have your backline getting hit by cavalry archers and just turn them around to return fire till the morale of your opponents breaks, then go right back to shooting into the mosh pit in the front. Do the Vampire Coast gun toting undead shoot into mosh pits without any special maneuvering?
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Dec 20, 2018 17:16
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