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Bhodi posted:I am absolutely not going to keep track of ability cooldowns beyond "I used it today." Ability use in 4e was segregated into [can use this on every turn] [can use this once every encounter] or [can use this once every adventuring day] This is even largely what 5e does, except [can use this once every encounter] was changed to [can use this once every other encounter, i.e. a Short Rest], just so they could distance the game from 4e. And yet it's still characterized as having a "cooldown" because it's part of the whole deliberate smear campaign to portray 4e as being bad by routinely comparing it to MMOs and therefore "not real D&D" And I'm sure the art in the Art and Arcana book is mighty fine - it was just surprising (or maybe not really) how much they're still loving that chicken in the copy.
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Dec 19, 2018 09:47
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Wait, so you wasted the time to dredge up all of those snippets in response to my being excited for the purchase and you've not actually read/owned the book yourself? Good god man, you've got to have something better to do than that. If you actually owned it and found it filled to the brim with that stuff I might be able to take it seriously but that's just ridiculous, petty even.
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Dec 19, 2018 10:28
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Nehru the Damaja posted:I know in large part the lack of books everywhere is good for the game but it bums me out that there's this big sale on D&D poo poo and I can't take advantage of it as I already have every book I want and have no interest in DMing a module. The GIFTBOOK18 code works on any physical book so you could always pick up some other gaming system's book or whatever.
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Dec 19, 2018 12:32
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Arthil posted:Wait, so you wasted the time to dredge up all of those snippets in response to my being excited for the purchase and you've not actually read/owned the book yourself? Not sure why you’re getting worked up about this. I think it’s interesting that a book written in collaboration with WotC in 2018 would still misconstrue D&D history like that.
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Dec 19, 2018 13:05
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Ceros_X posted:The GIFTBOOK18 code works on any physical book so you could always pick up some other gaming system's book or whatever. Well shoot, I didn't know that! Time to waste some money!
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Dec 19, 2018 15:02
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Ceros_X posted:The GIFTBOOK18 code works on any physical book so you could always pick up some other gaming system's book or whatever. Pick up Savage Worlds.
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Dec 19, 2018 17:18
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PicklePants posted:I kind of see the side kicks as a way... for the DM to make sure the party is fleshed out like it need to be. Lacking a cleric? There you go. Need a thief? Boom. Need a little extra damage to get through stuff? Disposable front line fighter. There was a 3.5 build called Ted the Enabler that was really impressive. It was a maximum utility character that did every single thing that needed to happen, so that the other players could play whatever they wanted.
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Dec 19, 2018 17:22
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Did they include anything about 3e being too much like Diablo 2? WotC even had official sourcebooks for Diablo classes, spells, and monsters.
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Dec 19, 2018 17:30
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BetterWeirdthanDead posted:Did they include anything about 3e being too much like Diablo 2? WotC even had official sourcebooks for Diablo classes, spells, and monsters. Too much of a good thing is a good thing.
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Dec 19, 2018 17:37
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gradenko_2000 posted:This is even largely what 5e does, except [can use this once every encounter] was changed to [can use this once every other encounter, i.e. a Short Rest], just so they could distance the game from 4e. Hell, Bladesong and Wild Shape can both be used exactly twice per short rest so they can be used once every combat encounter. Not sure what Rage's excuse is.
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Dec 19, 2018 18:04
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BetterWeirdthanDead posted:Did they include anything about 3e being too much like Diablo 2? WotC even had official sourcebooks for Diablo classes, spells, and monsters. Well, I, for one, eagerly await the Overwatch edition of the game then.
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Dec 19, 2018 18:40
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gradenko_2000 posted:Art and Arcana tries really hard to pull some low-key grognardy edition warring This poo poo is ridiculous to me. I'd been reading D&D books and unsuccessfully trying to have fun with my friends since 1998. poo poo like spells per day, memorizing spells, why even play a fighter at all? literally made 0 loving sense to my 12 year old brain, and 3rd edition didn't make it much better. My friends and I never successfully had fun with the drat game until 4th edition came out and the rules actually made sense as written. I wish ttrpgs were even remotely close to what they are now when I was a kid. I would have had a shitload more fun and much less frustration.
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Dec 19, 2018 20:24
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Could the choice of words be better? Probably. But it does accurately describe the differences, and as WarEternal flat out admits, the rules were very different from previous editions. I'm not getting anything antagonistic out of the copy posted. Would you guys be just as angry if they omitted the WoW comparison entirely? Don't get me wrong, I played/playing WoW for a good third of my life at this point so I don't have any negative bias there, but I do think you guys sometimes drag old baggage into how you interpret every little thing. Reading what gradenko posted, just taking in the words, and from what I know about 4th Edition. All of that sounds pretty accurate, I could do without fluffing the current edition in a back alley in that last quote but it isn't surprising given how closely they would have to work with WotC for the creation of the book. My interest in the book is purely for the art, visual design, and the history of both given how I make my living.
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Dec 19, 2018 22:14
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Arthil posted:Reading what gradenko posted, just taking in the words, and from what I know about 4th Edition. All of that sounds pretty accurate, I could do without fluffing the current edition in a back alley in that last quote but it isn't surprising given how closely they would have to work with WotC for the creation of the book. Well, it's mostly incorrect with regards to the game description, since 4e doesn't have cooldowns at all any different from 5e's long/short rest, and also that the game rules are pretty close to 3.5e-as-written. Even still has Fort/Ref/Will.
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Dec 19, 2018 22:52
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Arthil posted:but I do think you guys sometimes drag old baggage into how you interpret every little thing. I could make a big ol' block of text, but basically we are dragging old baggage into how we interpret things, and so are they. This is the authors going out of their way to bring up tired, silly criticisms of 4e, to score coolness points. And for 4e players, it's them letting us know, again, that things we liked in 4e aren't coming back anytime soon. It's grating. Edit: Everyone likes analogies, right? Amazon sometimes ships tiny items huge boxes. It's weird as hell, and just a waste of cardboard, why do this, it's dumb. Amazon is dumb. Someone shows up, and says "Amazon sometimes puts small things in larger packages so that there's less open space on the truck. They're playing truck Tetris. It seems silly, but making sure things don't slide around in a truck makes sure packages don't get scuffed or broken as often." People still say using big packages is dumb, it's a waste, it's weird as hell, a new person takes over, stops doing that, makes an ad saying "The new Amazon, now without those dumb oversized boxes!", while a bunch of things we ordered are getting scuffed and broken for no reason. Gharbad the Weak fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Dec 19, 2018 |
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Dec 19, 2018 22:54
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As someone who works at an Amazon warehouse the real issue is that a lot of those clowns won't properly stack poo poo unless you put them through months of training. (That said, yeah it's a lot faster to make idiot-proof containers than to spend time beating the bad habits out of the idiots.)
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Dec 19, 2018 23:24
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Of course, it's NEVER people comparing 4th edition to MMOs that are doing anything wrong, oh no. It's having the least reaction to a widely known to be derogatory summation that's an edition war  The most fascinating thing I've seen about 4th ed fans though. It's not even worth it to trash talk other editions, because why? 4th ed fans just want people to stop being hypocritical shits about "At will and short rest = MMO. Unless only for casters, then it's not WoW it's new and original at-will cantrip attacks and short rest spell slot recharge for wizards." At-will options and more resources for casters is good! It helps prevent boring "I did two things, that's it for me today" low levels. Now let's give some of that love Back to martials-Oh. It's time to argue that Action Surge, something Fighter can only do "So many times a day" as the saying goes, is only worth one swing. Because obviously a limited resource should only be as good as a by default bonus action like dual wielding 
Section Z fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Dec 19, 2018 |
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Dec 19, 2018 23:44
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I'm sure this is the rehash of version wars that will finally settle it once and for all.
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Dec 20, 2018 00:01
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So, as you can see, dragging previous baggage into the conversation is basically what this thread is for. NGDBSS posted:As someone who works at an Amazon warehouse the real issue is that a lot of those clowns won't properly stack poo poo unless you put them through months of training. (That said, yeah it's a lot faster to make idiot-proof containers than to spend time beating the bad habits out of the idiots.) This is the fight in a nutshell. You shouldn't have to be a systems master to make a good fighter. To a certain degree, fighters should come with the capacity to do their job, so that someone completely new can get in on the action. Gharbad the Weak fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Dec 20, 2018 |
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Dec 20, 2018 00:03
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Xae posted:I'm sure this is the rehash of version wars that will finally settle it once and for all.
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Dec 20, 2018 00:52
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I can't believe wotc replaced the baatezu and tanar'ri with 4th and 5th
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Dec 20, 2018 01:03
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I'm not sure if anyone's posted this here already, but this guy 3D modeled 700+ DnD creatures and put up all the STL's for free to 3D print.
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Dec 20, 2018 01:19
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 It's a dumb joke, but it's well done
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Dec 20, 2018 01:36
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McPhearson posted:I'm not sure if anyone's posted this here already, but this guy 3D modeled 700+ DnD creatures and put up all the STL's for free to 3D print. Thanks! I'll definitely use these down the line.
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Dec 20, 2018 02:00
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Gharbad the Weak posted:
Owns.
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Dec 20, 2018 02:01
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Arthil posted:Would you guys be just as angry if they omitted the WoW comparison entirely? no. It would be better if they did that, because it means they wouldn't be engaging in historical revisionism.
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Dec 20, 2018 02:47
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I got into technical writing partially because I wanted to one day work in the games industry and that seemed like the best way. Then over time, in addition to the harsh financial realities of the games industry, I discovered that the industry's most banal minds were working on D&D and that you're better off self-publishing than attempting to climb the mountain at WotC only to inevitably go out like poo poo through a goose and publish somewhere else anyway. That someone dedicated space in a book to smearing 4E in TYOOL 2018 is just another example for the pile.
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Dec 20, 2018 03:19
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I got into technical writing partially because I wanted to one day work in the games industry and that seemed like the best way. Then over time, in addition to the harsh financial realities of the games industry, I discovered that the industry's most banal minds were working on D&D and that you're better off self-publishing than attempting to climb the mountain at WotC only to inevitably go out like poo poo through a goose and publish somewhere else anyway. This sounds like an exact description of someone I used to work with in like 2006-2007 or so. You're not Australian, right?
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Dec 20, 2018 03:35
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Gharbad the Weak posted:
You don't need to in 5e. Still you guys are coming off a bit too bitter about that 4e comment. Which from checking is a true statement. It's been confirmed for years that the 4e Team had MMO's on the mind during the design phase, Mearls was even talking about the 4e design team about a month ago. The Art and Arcana guys also interviewed a bunch of current former designers and artists for the game about the topics. I also don't view it as a negative statement. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Dec 20, 2018 |
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Dec 20, 2018 04:04
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You absolutely do if you go past 5th level and there's any half-competent players in the party doing other classes.
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Dec 20, 2018 04:17
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MonsterEnvy posted:You don't need to in 5e. Conspiratiorist posted:You absolutely do if you go past 5th level and there's any half-competent players in the party doing other classes. Yeah most of my group isn't great at system analysis and even they realise there's no real reason to play fighter or rogue in this game when you could play paladin or bard.
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Dec 20, 2018 04:21
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Eh, most published adventures are for lower tier play and fighters are fun at those levels.
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Dec 20, 2018 04:26
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bewilderment posted:Yeah most of my group isn't great at system analysis and even they realise there's no real reason to play fighter or rogue in this game when you could play paladin or bard. Conspiratiorist posted:You absolutely do if you go past 5th level and there's any half-competent players in the party doing other classes. There is a difference between some classes preforming better and the other class needing to be built well. The Paladin is overall stronger then the fighter due to it's high burst damage. But the fighter can still preform the role it's built for and do it well. But sadly a non optimized fighter will not do it as well as a non optimized paladin. Myy point is it can still do the role and do it well, there have been no issues in my home games of fighters being unable to keep up or needing to be built well. Even in the high level games. Also Rogue's are scary, don't get why people keep underestimating them.
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Dec 20, 2018 04:31
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MonsterEnvy posted:There is a difference between some classes preforming better and the other class needing to be built well. I absolutely can't understand what you're trying to get at here. 1) There is a difference between a better-performing class, and a class that needs to be built well? I mean yeah, but also... no poo poo? 2) Paladins are better than fighters (no poo poo) and this is true even if both are unoptimised (again, no poo poo), but fighters can still do their job (but... not as well as paladins?) 3) 4) Therefore no problem.
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Dec 20, 2018 04:47
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MonsterEnvy posted:You don't need to in 5e. Mearls repeatedly runs his mouth to poo poo on people he doesn’t like and make him come off better. He’s not an unbiased source.
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Dec 20, 2018 04:50
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AlphaDog posted:I absolutely can't understand what you're trying to get at here. Ok going to explain it better now that I am no longer burdened. On a 1 to 10 to scale for fightyness unoptimized Paladins are probably a 8 and can go up to 10 with optimization. A fighter is a 7 and can go up to 9 with optimization. So paladins are overall better yes, but the unoptimized fighter is still a 7 a passing grade and it does not harm you to have one. This is not an ideal situation, (Ideal would be they were equal) but fighters don't outright Need optimization as they can still hold their own and perform their role. There is a problem but it's not a huge one. Arivia posted:Mearls repeatedly runs his mouth to poo poo on people he doesn’t like and make him come off better. He’s not an unbiased source. He was not criticizing the team. He was stating what some of their design goals were (Better class synergy, all classes having access to unique abilities for some examples.) stating that they had MMO's in mind for the initial build. They actually put out an early video during 4e's early days were they mentioned the MMO influences, though it's been lost on the old site.
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Dec 20, 2018 05:22
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Saying 4E takes design cues from then-contemporary/modern videogames only counts as grognardy edition warring bullshit because the dumbest people in the world think "takes design cues from other popular, modern games in the same party-based fantasy combat milieu" is a brutal own. It absolutely does, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that.
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Dec 20, 2018 05:26
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No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:It absolutely does, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Agreed.
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Dec 20, 2018 05:28
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I'll have you know, The Gygax conceived D&D wholesale and was neither inspired by nor adapted mechanics from contemporary games.
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Dec 20, 2018 05:35
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MonsterEnvy posted:Ok going to explain it better now that I am no longer burdened. Thing is Fighters are garbage at their role unless the DM is shoring them up with magic items or easy encounters against enemies following the gentleman's agreement to go after the guy at the front first. Paladins meanwhile buff and protect the party without needing to be focused on by attacks, can deal damage if they have to, and have spellcasting and healing for utility.
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Dec 20, 2018 05:36
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