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MMOs have all lost track of what the progression of an RPG is supposed to look like. Playing an RPG is supposed to be about creatively pursuing apotheosis, but instead of reaching godhood and finally vanquishing the evil with your bros you just hit the level cap, stop advancing meaningfully, and it turns into fantasy call of duty in a bizarre world that's just lousy with average wizards with exactly the same abilities grinding lootboxes together. and that's where all the content goes and you're expected to pay $15/mo for it, forever
poverty goat fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Dec 24, 2018 |
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Dec 24, 2018 00:12
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food court bailiff posted:...more buttons to push, I guess? Lol, if they made levelling a pointless chore, then no, level scaling isn't done really well, wtf
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Dec 24, 2018 00:29
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like i said, the level scaling is done really well but it kinda also emphasizes why that might be a bad idea
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Leveling in an MMO is a pointless chore whether or not there is scaling. The strongest evidence for those things being addictive is the fact that people are somehow still playing them when they should have all died off 10 years ago.
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Dec 24, 2018 00:45
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Then the conclusion i s that MMOs are an inherently worthless genre
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Dec 24, 2018 00:51
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steinrokkan posted:Lol, if they made levelling a pointless chore, then no, level scaling isn't done really well, wtf it's not a pointless chore at all, it's just....a thing that kind of happens? like, i've been playing pretty heavily for a while and am still like less than a third of the way from the level cap because it's just a complete non-issue because of the scaling. it's literally as far from a chore as it could be. it just makes all the content feel really same-y when you are traveling through four or five completely new-to-you zones in an hour. is pepsi ok posted:Leveling in an MMO is a pointless chore whether or not there is scaling. The strongest evidence for those things being addictive is the fact that people are somehow still playing them when they should have all died off 10 years ago. don't take this as me trying to defend MMOs here because i'm not*, but leveling in pretty much any game is kind of a pointless chore. *unpopular opinion: MMOs have a shitload of untapped potential still, ideas that were maybe tried in the nascent days of online gaming that never got a proper foothold, or new ideas entirely, some MMOs are neat, i really like how flashy and fun FFXIV feels, and as for ESO it turns out a lot of the grindy tedious poo poo i like to do in an Elder Scrolls game already happens to map extremely well to an MMO where the only real difference is a chat window in the corner, a much more interesting economy, and occasionally pitching in on some kind of world event. WoW's popularity sucked the vitality out of the entire genre in a huge way but it's not doing as well as it used to and there might finally be room for more innovators.
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Dec 24, 2018 00:52
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Leveling in RPGs is only a pointless chore if it tunnels you to use a single playstyle. A good RPG use leveling to let you pick between different playstyles, so it's not pointless.
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Dec 24, 2018 00:54
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ESO is also good because whoever is writing it clearly loves the lore, i got busted for stealing in the Argonian swampcountry and the stoner lizardman guards' dialogue was "You need to pay a fine, because you're a bad person." i paid the bribe and as I'm leaving he mutters "wait, what's this for again? ...oh, right." argonian supremacy e: steinrokkan posted:Leveling in RPGs is only a pointless chore if it tunnels you to use a single playstyle. A good RPG use leveling to let you pick between different playstyles, so it's not pointless. eso definitely allows this, though? it's just that the level scaling makes it so that basically every playstyle is viable in the PvE content. which is good, it gives you options. but it also means that everything feels very samey to fight despite whatever particle effects you happen to be farting out of your character model at the time.
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Dec 24, 2018 00:55
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OK, In that case I guess ESO is better than I thought, and better than the mainstream games in the franchise. i.e. Skyrim
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Dec 24, 2018 00:58
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ESO is hardcore sincerely way better than skyrim and oblivion, and if i'm being very honest probably morrowind as well despite me personally loving morrowind more it's just that the combat is simultaneously kinda involved (lots of dodging etc) and never interesting at all outside of boss fights. but it's one of those existential problems, where you realize that that's essentially true for every game ever and this one just calls it to your attention.
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Dec 24, 2018 01:01
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food court bailiff posted:*unpopular opinion: MMOs have a shitload of untapped potential still, ideas that were maybe tried in the nascent days of online gaming that never got a proper foothold, or new ideas entirely, some MMOs are neat, i really like how flashy and fun FFXIV feels, and as for ESO it turns out a lot of the grindy tedious poo poo i like to do in an Elder Scrolls game already happens to map extremely well to an MMO where the only real difference is a chat window in the corner, a much more interesting economy, and occasionally pitching in on some kind of world event. WoW's popularity sucked the vitality out of the entire genre in a huge way but it's not doing as well as it used to and there might finally be room for more innovators. Eve is the only non-WoWlike MMO ever to succeed, it's still kicking and it's not even a good game. despite its many failures magic is still possible there largely because nobody is trying to enforce a symmetrical, homogenous player experience poverty goat fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Dec 24, 2018 |
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Dec 24, 2018 01:02
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poverty goat posted:Eve is the only non-WoWlike MMO ever to succeed, it's still kicking and it's not even a good game. despite its many failures magic is still possible there largely because nobody is trying to enforce a symmetrical, homogenous player experience There was a very interesting wormhole invasion in EVE recently. wormhole space is very easily defensible because you can control the holes in/out of your system and most holes won't allow capital ships through. but someone (a goonswarm ally) was able to sneak hundreds of battleships into the top wormhole corporations base of operations and log them off in space for later. the holes are only open from his area like once a week, so it took over a year of sneaking in these ships. once the ships were in he called on his Corp mates to come man them, outnumbering the "invincible" wormholers 10 to 1. hundreds of people in the hole. rather than fight the "elite pvp" wormhole Corp blew up their capital ship for the insurance money  only in EVE online. the devs never planned anything like this, they just make some mechanics and let's people do what they want with them.
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Dec 24, 2018 01:17
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is the new version of The Secret World any good? the quests in that game were always by far the best in any RPG i've played, mmo or otherwise, but the actual gameplay was super loving bizarre and i could never quite grasp what i needed to be doing better apparently this new one is more wow-like while keeping the same quests and that could be very much my jam, seriously. those quest designers need a raise, and to teach seminars for their peers.
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Dec 24, 2018 01:17
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Vampire Bloodlines aged really poorly. I think a teenager discovering it today would have no reason but to ditch it two hours in, and rightfully so.
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Dec 24, 2018 01:19
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Rutibex, how did he hide them, in the same system, a connected wormhole, etc? As far as I know, unless he built a POS would the ships not have despawned not having pilots? If there was a POS in system or in a connected system housing them, they should have loving found it after a year, the lazy bastards.
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Dec 24, 2018 01:37
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McGiggins posted:Rutibex, how did he hide them, in the same system, a connected wormhole, etc? oh, he kept the ships fully assembled in a bunch of freighters, then just logged off in space. training a freighter pilot is cheap with skill injectors. It took even longer to seed the hole this way, because he had to wait for the freighter sized opening to be available.
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Dec 24, 2018 02:10
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Lmao owned. Why is it that the elite pvpers who always talk mad game are always the ones to fold like cowards. Very few people actually want to pitch themselves against another person in a scenario where they can actually lose something permanently.
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Dec 24, 2018 02:12
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steinrokkan posted:Vampire Bloodlines aged really poorly. I think a teenager discovering it today would have no reason but to ditch it two hours in, and rightfully so. There's a substantial community mod that actually just had a new release I still didn't finish the playthrough
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Dec 24, 2018 02:17
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McGiggins posted:Lmao owned. Why is it that the elite pvpers who always talk mad game are always the ones to fold like cowards. It was doubly sweet because they had a keepstar in there, which under normal circumstances is 100% safe. if you have your poo poo logged off in one it will be safe even if it gets blown up (your items transfer to the nearest empire station, with a 15% tax). but that doesn't happen in wormhole space, when a keepstar blows there it just drops all loot into space these things are not like the old POS. they are like stations and have unlimited storage space. that means YEARS worth of wormhole loot was in that keepstar, trillions of isk worth. It was a free for all when it popped. Rutibex fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Dec 24, 2018 |
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Dec 24, 2018 02:21
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eve is a great game to have played back in the day because then you get to appreciate stories like this forever
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Dec 24, 2018 02:25
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EVE stories are great because they still use wild west MMO rules where the GMs are more interested in letting poo poo play out and dealing with actual hackers and TOS violations rather than baby any idiot that gets scammed or trolled.
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Dec 24, 2018 02:40
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That's really the fundamental problem with MMOs. The more wild west it is the more great things can happen. The early days of Everquest had a ton of great stories too. But the problem is with more freedom the most obsessive players will eventually take over and that turns off most of your potential player base. So in response we get the theme park MMOs that have the widest appeal, but like Rutibex said you eventually get to a point where it's just parallel single player games.
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Dec 24, 2018 03:13
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Lord of the Rings Online was a good MMO.
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Dec 24, 2018 03:18
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Ultima Online was the best MMO because you could steal someone's sword and then murder them with it.
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Dec 24, 2018 04:33
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is pepsi ok posted:That's really the fundamental problem with MMOs. The more wild west it is the more great things can happen. The early days of Everquest had a ton of great stories too. But the problem is with more freedom the most obsessive players will eventually take over and that turns off most of your potential player base. So in response we get the theme park MMOs that have the widest appeal, but like Rutibex said you eventually get to a point where it's just parallel single player games. That becomes a problem with MMOs in general where the devs either cater to the most obsessive players (so you end up with them cranking out new raids and dungeons that only a tiny handful of players will ever actually see) or entirely to casual players (so you end up with basically a theme park experience for a lot of the game, usually pretty on-rails, until they give up and dump you in the threadbare sandbox because you're not a precious new player anymore) You end up with anyone who knows what they're doing rushing to the endgame ASAP because that's where the actual challenge and content is. About the only MMO that managed to balance actually having a fun experience for new players, replayability and high-end content is City of Heroes, and it's dead.
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Dec 24, 2018 04:49
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is pepsi ok posted:That's really the fundamental problem with MMOs. The more wild west it is the more great things can happen. The early days of Everquest had a ton of great stories too. But the problem is with more freedom the most obsessive players will eventually take over and that turns off most of your potential player base. So in response we get the theme park MMOs that have the widest appeal, but like Rutibex said you eventually get to a point where it's just parallel single player games. That’s one thing EVE did exactly right: they made those obsessive weirdos need new players to provide the manpower for their wars, which not only makes room for newbies within the game mechanics, but also rewards the obsessive weirdos who have some modicum of empathy and social skills, and provides a motivation for them to not treat new players like poo poo it imitates real-world power structures so well. thats why goonswarm is now wide-open to all pubbies, because loyalty to this dead gay website would mean mittani slowly giving up his power. so, like any good politician, he did whatever he needed to hold on to it, principle be damned
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Dec 24, 2018 05:06
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At the end of the day, the only good thing about EVE is stories of poo poo other people did.
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Dec 24, 2018 05:22
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Rutibex posted:There was a very interesting wormhole invasion in EVE recently. wormhole space is very easily defensible because you can control the holes in/out of your system and most holes won't allow capital ships through. but someone (a goonswarm ally) was able to sneak hundreds of battleships into the top wormhole corporations base of operations and log them off in space for later. the holes are only open from his area like once a week, so it took over a year of sneaking in these ships. I don't know poo poo about EVE other than getting a little obsessed with reading about its history/factions earlier this year, but this post and things like the heist that The Judge pulled are loving fascinating and awesome and I love that goons are at the center of it all.
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Dec 24, 2018 05:24
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OMGVBFLOL posted:it imitates real-world power structures so well. thats why goonswarm is now wide-open to all pubbies, because loyalty to this dead gay website would mean mittani slowly giving up his power. so, like any good politician, he did whatever he needed to hold on to it, principle be damned the canon end of goonfleet was karttoon disbanding the alliance
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Dec 24, 2018 05:26
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Eve Online is one of the worst games ever made but also one of the best MMOs ever made IIRC Eve runs on an ancient fork of Python and none of the core code ever disables the GIL so the whole thing is singlethreaded
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Dec 24, 2018 06:13
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:I don't know poo poo about EVE other than getting a little obsessed with reading about its history/factions earlier this year, but this post and things like the heist that The Judge pulled are loving fascinating and awesome and I love that goons are at the center of it all. i agree that reading about all the wild schemes and power plays that happen is interesting, but the game itself is terrible and the only thing that made it worth playing was playing with other goons. most of goonswarm is reddit pubbies now. some of the comedy-driven culture and weirdness is still there as there’s a few old timers still around, but it’s mostly just tryhards from reddit who take the game 100% seriously and get mad about loot and poo poo. Cactus Ghost fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Dec 24, 2018 |
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Dec 24, 2018 07:39
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My video games, if they had ever been made, would have been the best in the world, at least narratively.
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Dec 24, 2018 07:46
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OMGVBFLOL posted:i agree that reading about all the wild schemes and power plays that happen is interesting, but the game itself is terrible and the only thing that made it worth playing was playing with other goons. most of goonswarm is reddit pubbies now. some of the comedy-driven culture and weirdness is still there as there’s a few old timers still around, but it’s mostly just tryhards from reddit who take the game 100% seriously and get mad about loot and poo poo. Oh my god, HOW? That's depressing as all hell. Is that since the Korean buyout, or what?
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Dec 24, 2018 07:53
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Naminé doesn't have hammer toes, she has hammer feet.
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Dec 24, 2018 08:34
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Oh my god, HOW? Redditors have been registering and immediately posting in the goonswarm recruitment thread for years.
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Dec 24, 2018 11:45
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I though reddit was more of a PL crew
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Dec 24, 2018 12:01
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OMGVBFLOL posted:i agree that reading about all the wild schemes and power plays that happen is interesting, but the game itself is terrible and the only thing that made it worth playing was playing with other goons. most of goonswarm is reddit pubbies now. some of the comedy-driven culture and weirdness is still there as there’s a few old timers still around, but it’s mostly just tryhards from reddit who take the game 100% seriously and get mad about loot and poo poo. Yeah, EVE is way, way more fun to read about than to actually play. The best new player experience in EVE is sitting around and acting like an RTS unit for someone else which is to me the epitome of an unfun experience. Honestly, I think the open PvP worlds kinda fell apart when non-MMO versions of their gameplay came about(the survival sims and dayz/pubg) which basically got the core of the thing without the RPG bullshit or lag and problems that actual MMO games have.
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Dec 24, 2018 12:12
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:Oh my god, HOW? There are tiers to goonswarm membership. Reddit pubbies must do a certain number of fleet engagements or they are kicked out. True goons from SA may do as they wish. Think of them like the French foreign legion. a bunch of disposable bodies that die for our imperial ambitions.
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Dec 24, 2018 15:08
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, EVE is way, way more fun to read about than to actually play. The best new player experience in EVE is sitting around and acting like an RTS unit for someone else which is to me the epitome of an unfun experience. survival games are the second genesis of the MMO. I don't know if I would even call them a different game genre, they are straight up the kind of game Ultima Online was trying to be. Minecraft saved the MMO.
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Dec 24, 2018 15:12
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Rutibex posted:There are tiers to goonswarm membership. Reddit pubbies must do a certain number of fleet engagements or they are kicked out. True goons from SA may do as they wish. the canon end of goonfleet was karttoon disbanding the alliance
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Dec 24, 2018 15:37
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poverty goat posted:the canon end of goonfleet was karttoon disbanding the alliance I didn't say goonfleet I said goonswarm.
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Dec 24, 2018 15:43
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