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Mr. Lobe posted:yes, that is correct, this is why I am a trotskyist gently caress im a trotskyist now, after being clean for so many years...
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Dec 28, 2018 20:20
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everybody knows Trotskyists only have sex with awake kids or sleeping women.
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Dec 28, 2018 21:38
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Question Friend posted:What are trots into ideologically Nuclear war and fascism
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Dec 28, 2018 22:06
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Mr. Lobe posted:as much as I can tell, much the same things as every other far left faction but hey, the narcissism of small differences means that what small points of distinction exist will be amplified into grotesque caricatures between factions in the service of self-differentiation. and somewhere on the internet, there will be some deranged useful idiot to give flesh to the strawmen. see: WSWS w/r/t Trotskyists, or whatever that Austin Redguard blog was regarding Maoists, etc I honestly think most hardline sectarian socialists are brainwormed to a degree, it's just the Trotskyist brainworm is so specific to that movement thanks to the circumstances of his decline and demise. The majority of organized Trot groups are insular and paranoid of outsiders and decry anyone who doesn't agree with their exact interpretation of Trotskyism as pseudo-left or whatever. The irony in this is that it causes most of them to ignore one of the basic tenets of Trotsky's political strategy: the united front. The movement would be worthy of the man himself if Trotsky had just been forgotten by Stalin and ended up dying from the flu or something instead of being martyred. The whole western leftist sectarian scene in general is a joke. People forget that all the 20th century tendencies we're all following and the differences between them were born and fleshed out in a time of vibrant socialist struggle, of imminent revolutions, imminent world war, etc. When the revolution was nearly at hand, it was actually a good time to talk about what exactly the goals of it should be and what the aftermath would be. That we're LARPing these same ideological disagreements when we can't even get Walmart unionized is kind of silly. Unite now and we can kill each other over what communism should look like once we actually have a chance of making it through to the other side. And that communism isn't going to look like anything implemented in 20th century peasant societies; communism for 21st century first world countries where 80% of people work retail and service industries will have to be something new. Eventually we're all going to have to let go of our favorite 20th century dude and forge our own Somethingism that works for us.
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Dec 28, 2018 22:09
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Anyone know anything about Workers World Party? https://medium.com/@socialistobserv...ft-a2abc035dde0
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Dec 28, 2018 22:18
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Graphic posted:I honestly think most hardline sectarian socialists are brainwormed to a degree, it's just the Trotskyist brainworm is so specific to that movement thanks to the circumstances of his decline and demise. The majority of organized Trot groups are insular and paranoid of outsiders and decry anyone who doesn't agree with their exact interpretation of Trotskyism as pseudo-left or whatever. The irony in this is that it causes most of them to ignore one of the basic tenets of Trotsky's political strategy: the united front. The movement would be worthy of the man himself if Trotsky had just been forgotten by Stalin and ended up dying from the flu or something instead of being martyred. drat, it's true
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Dec 28, 2018 22:19
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GunnerJ posted:Anyone know anything about Workers World Party? WWP split from the Socialist Workers Party (SWP) back in the 50s and later the PSL split from WWP about 20 years ago give or take. the only thing I really know about them is that a lot of the criticism they and the PSL have gotten over the years is that the reason/details of their split has never really been made clear which is usually viewed as bad because in a period like this when the labor movement is at a low ebb its not good to split it up even more.
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Dec 28, 2018 22:31
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it’s always insanely petty disagreements between the very small amount of “cadre” and incomprehensible to an outside observer
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Dec 28, 2018 22:32
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or someone slept with someone else’s wife or whatever
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Dec 28, 2018 22:32
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those pep rally conventions that socialist groups throw get pretty horny
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Dec 28, 2018 22:33
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usually if theres no stated reason or statement put out yeah it is assumed its a personality conflict or something. sometimes when something is put out its still at root a personality conflict but at least then people can point to something that seems reasonable
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Dec 28, 2018 22:37
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THS posted:those pep rally conventions that socialist groups throw get pretty horny I remember someone set out a huge tray of rubbers at the DSA convention in Chicago last year and they were all gone by the second day lmao. So many regrettable twitter mufo hookups I'm sure
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Dec 28, 2018 22:38
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Pretty sure it was a sex pest issues in the wwp
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Dec 28, 2018 22:40
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Part of the WWP / PSL split, from my understanding, derived from a strategic disagreement over the use of front organizations. The WWP essentially controlled ANSWER and used that group as the locus of anti war organizing in the runup to the Iraq War. In addition, they hold a significant amount of power within the IAC - the International Action Center amusingly founded by Ramsey Clark, LBJ’s attorney general. PSL members felt that activism should occur within organizations controlled directly & unambiguously by the party. I’m a member of neither organization so take it with a grain of salt but that is the sort of nontrivial disgreement that makes sense as a fissure to me.
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Dec 28, 2018 22:54
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what a weird grainy thing to split over. what anti war activities would any leftist org not be down with
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Dec 28, 2018 23:00
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looks like both approaches fail
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Dec 28, 2018 23:01
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THS posted:or someone slept with someone else’s wife or whatever Inner discord on the organization because of cuckoldry is the true horseshoe between far left and right
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Dec 28, 2018 23:09
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Graphic posted:I honestly think most hardline sectarian socialists are brainwormed to a degree, it's just the Trotskyist brainworm is so specific to that movement thanks to the circumstances of his decline and demise. The majority of organized Trot groups are insular and paranoid of outsiders and decry anyone who doesn't agree with their exact interpretation of Trotskyism as pseudo-left or whatever. The irony in this is that it causes most of them to ignore one of the basic tenets of Trotsky's political strategy: the united front. The movement would be worthy of the man himself if Trotsky had just been forgotten by Stalin and ended up dying from the flu or something instead of being martyred. 
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Dec 28, 2018 23:41
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Graphic posted:i want to wear the shame of being a trot openly. i want to be humiliated and mocked constantly by the other leftgoons sign up for fetlife and jump in, trotster
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Dec 28, 2018 23:49
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TrotLife.com
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Dec 28, 2018 23:50
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I have a lot more respect for people in orgs which I might disagree with than people who split from or endlessly poo poo talk other orgs. since 2016 I've known so many people who have floated around from DSA to PSL to WWP all the while doing jack besides arguing with people about how theyre wrong for holding some position that they themselves held 2 weeks before. I can say I'm a trotskyist and the reason why has less to do with a dead russian guy from 100 years ago and almost all to do with the fact that it was trotskyists who recruited me, and who taught me and gave me the skills to know how how to organize my community, and my workplace.
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Dec 29, 2018 00:37
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apropos to nothing posted:I have a lot more respect for people in orgs which I might disagree with than people who split from or endlessly poo poo talk other orgs. since 2016 I've known so many people who have floated around from DSA to PSL to WWP all the while doing jack besides arguing with people about how theyre wrong for holding some position that they themselves held 2 weeks before. I can say I'm a trotskyist and the reason why has less to do with a dead russian guy from 100 years ago and almost all to do with the fact that it was trotskyists who recruited me, and who taught me and gave me the skills to know how how to organize my community, and my workplace. this is true to my experience as well. it was from trotskyists that I gained the vocabulary and conceptual framework of marxism, and the practical experience of organizing. that inspires a kind of ideological loyalty and affinity in itself, and I don't begrudge anyone radicalized by, say, a stalinist tradition instead if they are generally acting in the interests of the working class and not spending their energy hashing out disputes over the facts of the 20th century or stoking the flames of factional disputes.
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Dec 29, 2018 01:11
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I think a lot about something I heard in a talk once, it was a 100 year retrospective on the Russian Revolution. the speaker said that the next time when struggle rises to the point of revolution, it will probably not be images of Lenin or even Marx on the banners at the rallies and the marches. instead there will be the icons the people of that struggle can most relate to, who will either be such figures from more contemporary struggles like Malcolm X, or even more likely figures who have not yet stepped into the spotlight of history yet. that said, it will be important for the people organizing these movements to be literate in these histories. so debating these legacies is not unimportant, but it should not be central, especially not at this time.
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Dec 29, 2018 01:22
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We need the next evolution. I'm wary of any group or individual that fetishizes the distant past too much. Their brain isn't going to be malleable enough to see the moment when it happens and incorporate the events and actors creating it. Like there are hardcore armchair left people that think BLM is either marginal boon or a drag on revolutionary potential, and i'm just like, what even the gently caress?
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Dec 29, 2018 01:46
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in my experience, the people who do what yall are describing the most are the people who try to do exactly what youre advocating, those that are looking towards some "new" idea or formation. usually theyre the ones who are most dismissive of movements or unaware of how to organize in the present and engage with mass movements. just my anecdotal experience.
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Dec 29, 2018 01:54
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GalacticAcid posted:Part of the WWP / PSL split, from my understanding, derived from a strategic disagreement over the use of front organizations. yeah, learning way after the fact that ANSWER was a front for WWP wasn't really helpful to building the party or whatever
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Dec 29, 2018 02:02
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I used to be a liberal but 2016 broke my brain and I joined the DSA like a month ago and I still have some dumb questions about leftism is this a good thread to ask them in?
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Dec 29, 2018 02:35
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Mr. Lobe posted:it was from trotskyists that I gained the vocabulary and conceptual framework of marxism, and the practical experience of organizing. Trotsky's writings are easily the best intro point for anyone getting into the left IMO. Very easy to read and understand, entertaining, while not losing any depth. He was a great writer. It's a shame that all the drama surrounding him obsscures that to a significant degree. quote:If we look back to the historical sequence of world concepts, the theory of natural law will prove to be a paraphrase of Christian spiritualism freed from its crude mysticism. The Gospels proclaimed to the slave that he had just the same soul as the slave-owner, and in this way established the equality of all men before the heavenly tribunal. In reality, the slave remained a slave, and obedience became for him a religious duty. In the teaching of Christianity, the slave found an expression for his own ignorant protest against his degraded condition. Side by side with the protest was also the consolation. Christianity told him:– ”You have an immortal soul, although you resemble a pack-horse.” Here sounded the note of indignation. But the same Christianity said:– ”Although you are like a pack-horse, yet your immortal soul has in store for it an eternal reward.” Here is the voice of consolation. These two notes were found in historical Christianity in different proportions at different periods and amongst different classes. But as a whole, Christianity, like all other religions, became a method of deadening the consciousness of the oppressed masses. Graphic fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Dec 29, 2018 |
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Dec 29, 2018 02:36
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christmas boots posted:I used to be a liberal but 2016 broke my brain and I joined the DSA like a month ago and I still have some dumb questions about leftism is this a good thread to ask them in? yeah sure why not do you want literature recommendations? "Meaning of Marxism" was the first text that really laid out Marxism in a way I understood, if you feel like you are still in the early stages of developing ideas
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Dec 29, 2018 02:51
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Yeah, probably a good idea to start with some 101 stuff. Anything about art would be of personal interest to me too. One question, and I realize that the Left is not a monolith and there's probably as many opinions as there are people, is what value Art has from a leftist perspective? Like if I were to extol the value that art brings to society it sounds pretty... liberal I guess? I'm probably not explain myself very well, but I guess art has this reputation often for being pretentious and bougie (or at least "modern art") and you think of some of the performing arts (which is what I used to study and do, though not professionally) and with stuff like Broadway and Hamilton I can definitely see an argument that there's a large element of classism and elitism there. But labor is labor, and at the same time art of some form or another seems to be such a universal aspect of human civilization that throwing it all in that category is pretty self-evidently an incorrect way of looking at things, or so it seems to me, and so I feel that there's got to be some sort of value that I just can't quite articulate. I don't know if any of that makes any sense? I could easily be overthinking it.
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Dec 29, 2018 03:03
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yo, what's up with nepal? last i heard the communists won the election there. how's that going?
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Dec 29, 2018 03:11
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There's a few left artists in theatre specifically that are still relevant. Check out Bertolt Brecht and Augusto Boal. A lot of left stuff is going to talk about art per session because most left thought is more about how power works (at least, the left thought that is useful does this) and how class struggle is engaged through the medium of economics and politics, and art doesn't have as much to do with that. If you're interested in the relationship of art to the economic undergirding relationships of society , try googling about "base and superstructure"
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Dec 29, 2018 03:12
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christmas boots posted:I used to be a liberal but 2016 broke my brain and I joined the DSA like a month ago and I still have some dumb questions about leftism is this a good thread to ask them in? This is the thread that will tell you why joining DSA means you're still a liberal, but it's up to you to decide if the reasons given are true.
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Dec 29, 2018 04:10
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The three kinds of liberalism; joining the DSA, voting Democrat, and associating or self identifying as a trotskyist
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Dec 29, 2018 04:13
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https://deadspin.com/the-strange-career-of-jeff-monson-american-mma-fighter-1831235041
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Dec 29, 2018 04:24
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christmas boots posted:I used to be a liberal but 2016 broke my brain and I joined the DSA like a month ago and I still have some dumb questions about leftism is this a good thread to ask them in? Yes, you can ask them here
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Dec 29, 2018 06:03
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GunnerJ posted:This is the thread that will tell you why joining DSA means you're still a liberal, but it's up to you to decide if the reasons given are true. I thought that was getfiscal’s job: https://twitter.com/getfiscal/status/1019943633699688448?s=20 DSA in my area wants to be a social club. There was an explicitly non-electoral socialist group too, and they did good work, but it was small (like 10 people) and they didn’t work with anyone else. so after like two campaigns they died out apart from being on facebook.
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Dec 29, 2018 06:37
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I heard a fun comment from someone that DSA reminded him of the Shriner's Like the old men who wear fezs and ride in funny little cars during 4th of July parades:  It's a social club but also "good works" oriented around community service Anyways it's a good thing he said because he moved here recently from across the country and could immediately and easily plug in to the left. More like... an interface
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Dec 29, 2018 06:42
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christmas boots posted:Yeah, probably a good idea to start with some 101 stuff. art wouldn't be sold on a market in a communist society, if that's what you mean. do you mean like the contemporary art world, damien hirst, jeff koons? or marvel movies? art is a kind of broad category.
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Dec 29, 2018 06:57
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO79DhItC_c this is art and im going to emptyquote this post on May 1st
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Dec 29, 2018 08:32
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