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LongDarkNight posted:Well dwarves are Scottish. Dwarves are generally more complexly coded than that. They are normally Scottish but look like Vikings.
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Dec 30, 2018 15:02
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Nessus posted:
For all the impact they have on the setting you can functionally ignore the dwarves. They rule a single small mountainous nation far to the northeast, and prior to the rise of dragonmarks were a loose confederation of feuding clans. When the Mark of Warding arose in House Kundarak they kind of took over everyone else and went "NOW WE ARE BANKERS!" and became much less interesting for it. They're an excuse for modern conveniences in a fantasy setting (Storing wealth without needing to cart around electrum pieces, etc). Lemon-Lime posted:Zilargo is a police state made up of model towns where there is no justice system and everyone appears to be happily law-abiding on the surface, because if you break the law, the Trust (the secret political police who use blackmail and intrigue as their main weapons, and who have eyes and ears everywhere) disappears you for the good of the nation. This is vaguely inspired by Stalin's USSR in general, rather than the DDR specifically. As a result, gnomes are adept at deception and are explicitly written as using diplomacy to safeguard the interests of Zilargo and the gnomish people as a whole. Zilargo is also houses the cabal of crazy elemental binding mad scientists who make all the coolest toys. Ultimately I think the characterization of Dwarves and Gnomes is somewhat hindered by the fact that every single one of the PHB Nations needed to be represented and each of them needed to have a dragonmark. At least Halflings(Nomadic dinosaur riding barbarians who leveraged their twin marks of Healing and Hospitality into also functionally running Comfort Inns across the world) and Half-Orcs(Orcs are actually good(/neutral) and druidic, they see Half-Orcs as the best of both them and Humanity and capable of doing what they cannot) got fair shakes out of the deal. Elves, were always going to be fine, of course, they're Elves.
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Dec 30, 2018 16:49
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Dwarves also control the prisons in Eberron (for profits). Their take on drow is different but not all that great, too.
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Dec 30, 2018 17:03
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Eberron dwarves are basically the fantasy Swiss by way of Italian feuding city states.
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Dec 30, 2018 17:52
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Is there no spin on elves in Eberron?
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Dec 30, 2018 18:00
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Dawgstar posted:Is there no spin on elves in Eberron? Eberron elves are either Caribbean voodoo elves ruled by a parliament of their undead ancestors whom they worship as living gods, or desert-dwelling Berber mercenary raiders. Both of these cultures are descended from elven slaves who fled the collapse of the giants' jungle empire on Xen'drik thousands of years ago. The drow are descendants of those who didn't leave Xen'drik, and are a bunch of primitive jungle tribes living in the ruins of that empire. Kurieg posted:Ultimately I think the characterization of Dwarves and Gnomes is somewhat hindered by the fact that every single one of the PHB Nations needed to be represented and each of them needed to have a dragonmark. At least Halflings(Nomadic dinosaur riding barbarians who leveraged their twin marks of Healing and Hospitality into also functionally running Comfort Inns across the world) and Half-Orcs(Orcs are actually good(/neutral) and druidic, they see Half-Orcs as the best of both them and Humanity and capable of doing what they cannot) got fair shakes out of the deal. Dwarves are by far the laziest ones since it's just "regular D&D dwarves but they do banking instead of mining." The way Eberron works mashes different time periods together (including the interwar period and 1980s-style cyberpunk megacorps) means they genuinely have a monopoly on banking, which means the already borderline D&D dwarf stereotypes even more uncomfortable. Like the gnomes and to a lesser extent the drow, it's just another case of importing old D&D stuff with lovely baggage into the setting and not fully thinking the consequences through. It doesn't help that Eberron is a noir/pulp setting, which means it's drawing from a number of sources that already have issues. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Dec 30, 2018 |
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Dec 30, 2018 18:19
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Dawgstar posted:Is there no spin on elves in Eberron? Honestly, they're one of the most interesting parts to me. In addition to just belonging to one of the Five Nations of Khorvaire, because there's no reason an Elf can't be Brelish, Cyran, etc., there are two major elvish nations/cultural groups. Aerenal elves are isolationist, ancestor worshiping elves who try to be as awesome as possible so they'll get inducted into the positive energy powered undead pantheon. The Valenar are also a bunch of ancestor worshiping elves who think that the best way to keep their ancestors around is to embody their actions in life. This lets them act as a host for the ancestor spirit, keeping their great heroes from fading into the oblivion that is death in Eberron. Also, they worked as mercenaries in the Last War and carved out a nation of their own from one of the Five Nations, and no one's really pleased to have a bunch of militaristic elves longing to perform glorious deeds just sort of hanging around. The funny thing is, the Valenar don't really know what to do with the land they conquered (turns out there aren't any administrator ancestral spirits gloriously filling out paperwork), so the places they conquered generally have more local control than just about anywhere in the Five Nations.
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Dec 30, 2018 18:19
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Lemon-Lime posted:Like the gnomes and to a lesser extent the drow, it's just another case of importing old D&D stuff with lovely baggage into the setting and not fully thinking the consequences through. I think that the Drow in Eberron are better than vanilla drow. They're decidedly masters of their own fate, there's none of the weirdly fetishised matriarchical demon worship. Buuut they are also slotted into the "Hostile Natives" Stereotype of pulp literature. And, you know, have black skin, though they're living along the equator so there's slightly more justification there than when they exclusively live underground. Seriously what is it with D&D and having all the "Evil dark skinned races" living exclusively underground?
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Dec 30, 2018 19:58
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Kurieg posted:I think that the Drow in Eberron are better than vanilla drow. They're decidedly masters of their own fate, there's none of the weirdly fetishised matriarchical demon worship. The Eberron drow are better, in that Secrets of Xen'Drik details several distinct drow cultures, and implies many more may exist. On the other hand, the majority drow culture (the Vulkoori) worship Vulkoor, an evil half-scorpion-half-drow god who might be an aspect of The Mockery. And that's a mostly lateral move. Secrets of Xen'Drik floats the idea that the drow we basically Curse of Cain'd, too, and created by giants fusing "dark forces" to "normal elves" sooooo 
Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Dec 30, 2018 |
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Dec 30, 2018 20:08
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Yea they fixed Drow in Eberron real fast by turning them from 'ooga booga scary tribal...dark skinned people...oh noooo' to 'ok no these guys actually have a lot of different cultures, yes there's a lot of spooky scorpion worshippers but there's nothing saying you can't be a Drow that's just a dude who worships the ancestors in their own way and doesn't gently caress with that Mockery bullshit.' Eberron is the best D&D setting I'll die on this hill
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Dec 30, 2018 21:10
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Eberron's good but it's still not Planescape good.
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Dec 30, 2018 21:26
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While Eberron dwarves have their issues, they're not meant to be misers at all. They're the nouveau riche, constantly showing off their wealth in increasingly garish and over the top ways. Dwarves do not collect gold to sit in a vault somewhere - that's what they let the OTHER people do. They spend it on custom made axes that have their names written in the handle in diamonds. Basically, the Mror Holds are made of what used to be the losers of the dwarven cultures who either got exiled to the surface or went up there to guard the entrance from those exiles. Except then all the dwarven holds that were underground got conquered and corrupted by Daelkyr, meaning Mror is not only made of the people the dwarves as a whole wanted to get rid of, they're also the only ones left. Without anything to their name, they found something they had that nobody else had: lots and lots and lots of gold. The thing Baker wanted to do with dwarves is basically make them extremely materialistic. Treasure is a noun, but it's also a verb. Dwarves fall in love with objects both because, well, that's the dwarf stereotype, but also because "I'm rich, bitch" is at this point basically the dwarven claim to fame. Where other races put all their money into Kundarak banks, dwarves spend it on the nicest clothing possible, because how else can you know a merchant is worth trusting? They love drinking ale, but they especially love drinking ale from the solid gold goblet their spouse got them as a gift on their anniversary. They're still stoic and able to withstand hardship and discomfort, but that's because spending all your money on the nicest jewelry you can (just think of how people will see you as the dwarf with the beautiful diamond necklace!) and then sleeping on cold stone is seen as an absolutely good sacrifice. Baker's mentioned he's always liked the idea of the Mror Holds being the true heart of the Aurum - the conspiracy to overthrow the various governments of the continent and replace them with oligarchies of the rich. Kurieg posted:Seriously what is it with D&D and having all the "Evil dark skinned races" living exclusively underground? Gygax was a psychopath, and was also mainly inspired by bad 60's pulp fiction, which was extremely racist.
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Dec 30, 2018 21:30
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ProfessorCirno posted:While Eberron dwarves have their issues, they're not meant to be misers at all. They're the nouveau riche, constantly showing off their wealth in increasingly garish and over the top ways. Dwarves do not collect gold to sit in a vault somewhere - that's what they let the OTHER people do. They spend it on custom made axes that have their names written in the handle in diamonds. Basically, the Mror Holds are made of what used to be the losers of the dwarven cultures who either got exiled to the surface or went up there to guard the entrance from those exiles. Except then all the dwarven holds that were underground got conquered and corrupted by Daelkyr, meaning Mror is not only made of the people the dwarves as a whole wanted to get rid of, they're also the only ones left. Without anything to their name, they found something they had that nobody else had: lots and lots and lots of gold. I do agree with the part about drawing from bad pulp fiction being a gateway to bigoted tropes, but...is the bold figurative speech, based on actual medical sources, or are we playing armchair psychologist?
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Dec 30, 2018 22:03
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yea actually hilariously Eberron took the traditional Dwarf based in Lord of the Rings having a not really intentionally antisemitic but still kinda hosed up 'no no see I respect how strong the Jews are to endure such hardships and what a proud and noble people they are...who are greedy by nature and kinda to blame for their own destruction...' and made them into an actual fun to play 'rich and greedy people' by making them gaudy materialistic assholes who absolutely think it's a good trade to skip a meal if it means you get to show off a very nice fur coat to all your friends. My last Eberron character was a Dwarf who pulled moves like when he sold off his healing potions he just found so he could get a fancy gold inlay put in his armor (that served as a bonus for his divine magic so it wasn't an actual mechanical waste, but it was totally treated as 'you just sold potions that keep you alive to make your breastplate fancier you dumb Dwarf'). Eberron has the typical pulp problem of 'characters have one or two notes' but they at least tend to try to make one of those notes something neat to play with that sets the world apart from typical fantasy stories.
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Dec 30, 2018 22:06
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Libertad! posted:I do agree with the part about drawing from bad pulp fiction being a gateway to bigoted tropes, but...is the bold figurative speech, based on actual medical sources, or are we playing armchair psychologist? He had a lot to say about alignment, all of it profoundly hosed up. At one point he was explaining "Lawful Good" on dragonsfoot, which involved claiming "eye for an eye" was a proper understanding of lawful good, quoting a real world genocidal maniac (two of them, actually, but only referenced one by name), pointing out that if a paladin were to ever convert someone of evil alignment they should immediately be murdered to ensure they don't "backslide," and stating that pacifists deserve to be made into slaves.
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Dec 30, 2018 22:39
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ProfessorCirno posted:He had a lot to say about alignment, all of it profoundly hosed up. At one point he was explaining "Lawful Good" on dragonsfoot, which involved claiming "eye for an eye" was a proper understanding of lawful good, quoting a real world genocidal maniac (two of them, actually, but only referenced one by name), pointing out that if a paladin were to ever convert someone of evil alignment they should immediately be murdered to ensure they don't "backslide," and stating that pacifists deserve to be made into slaves. I do wonder about a lot of these guys' written material and how much of it was the equivalent of an effort post in a thread here, which most of us would probably not consider to be included in our personal portfolio and Selected Quotations from Username Nessus. On the other hand, alignment was pretty hosed up, and unfortunately that propagated instead of weapon speed modifiers...
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Dec 30, 2018 23:28
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Gygax, like many of the original figures of this stuff, can probably have most of his weird poo poo chalked up to them being dumb nerds who's philosophy was shaped through fantasy stories and all more than an actual psychosis issue but yea alignment was always kinda a major thing in D&D and he was always real....weird about that stuff...
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Dec 31, 2018 00:35
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So much stupid poo poo people wrote on threads and in Dragon magazine can be easily chalked up to the writer being awkward in general and then multiply it by how easy it is to forget that no one can hear the tone of your voice, see the wry smile on your face, or read your body language in text.
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Dec 31, 2018 00:41
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Rebuild all of d&d treating roguelikes as the originating text, specifically tales of Maj Eyal, cogmind, and caves of qud.
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Dec 31, 2018 00:44
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ProfessorCirno posted:He had a lot to say about alignment, all of it profoundly hosed up. At one point he was explaining "Lawful Good" on dragonsfoot, which involved claiming "eye for an eye" was a proper understanding of lawful good, quoting a real world genocidal maniac (two of them, actually, but only referenced one by name), pointing out that if a paladin were to ever convert someone of evil alignment they should immediately be murdered to ensure they don't "backslide," and stating that pacifists deserve to be made into slaves.
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Dec 31, 2018 00:47
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That's true, psychopaths can integrate into society with coaching.
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Dec 31, 2018 00:49
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moths posted:Eberron's good but it's still not Planescape good. Don't get me wrong, Planescape is probably THE most fascinating settings to read, but... I've had a hell of a time figuring out what to do with it, much less explaining it to even moderately invested players. Eberron's got a lot of interesting cultures and backgrounds that can be mined for characters, but it also works just fine with absolute cliches "I'm a half orc barbarian for the wastes, your civilized ways are strange to me" or "I'm a sneaky halfling thief who wanders from place to place taking what he needs." And honestly? There's a lot of value to a D&D setting that has a very low barrier of entry.
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Dec 31, 2018 00:55
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remusclaw posted:So much stupid poo poo people wrote on threads and in Dragon magazine can be easily chalked up to the writer being awkward in general and then multiply it by how easy it is to forget that no one can hear the tone of your voice, see the wry smile on your face, or read your body language in text. That kinda is a roundabout way to say "the man did not know jack about how to write."
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Dec 31, 2018 00:55
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Capfalcon posted:Don't get me wrong, Planescape is probably THE most fascinating settings to read, but... I've had a hell of a time figuring out what to do with it, much less explaining it to even moderately invested players. I miss Planescape. Just open it up and let the players go nuts. Roll with it.
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Dec 31, 2018 00:57
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Like Gygax referenced the initiator of the loving Sand Creek Massacre as someone to think about when making a paladin. He was a bad person.
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Dec 31, 2018 01:00
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Kemper Boyd posted:That kinda is a roundabout way to say "the man did not know jack about how to write." I didn't focus on Gary because I think it's a problem that's pretty endemic to internet life in general and was just as common back in the day. They just had the benefit back then that time from pen to print allowed culling, editing and reservations to take hold before everyone else got to see it. Gary of course published that stuff anyway.
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Dec 31, 2018 01:01
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Capfalcon posted:Don't get me wrong, Planescape is probably THE most fascinating settings to read, but... I've had a hell of a time figuring out what to do with it, much less explaining it to even moderately invested players. Eberron was made to be approachable and contain room for every classic D&Dism per the rules of the contest it came out of. It's funny because Eberron was allowed to push the limit other rules of the contest like limiting the tech level (but no guns!!!) But this was apparently hard constraint.
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Dec 31, 2018 01:01
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Nuns with Guns posted:Eberron was made to be approachable and contain room for every classic D&Dism per the rules of the contest it came out of. It's funny because Eberron was allowed to push the limit other rules of the contest like limiting the tech level (but no guns!!!) But this was apparently hard constraint. Yeah pretty much. You can see in places where Baker was pushing up against the limits required by the nature of the setting search, like with alignment where the original book all but practically says "alignment is real dumb and you should ignore it" with how he goes to great lengths to explain that this person with Evil on their character sheet is actually trying to prevent a war while this other person with Good is trying to start one, that alignments are more of a fluid and subjective thing, etc. Also I kind of have to agree that Planescape has always come across to me as a setting that's more interesting to read than to play using D&D but that Eberron is, at least in my opinion, pretty much one of the best playable D&Ds. It's hardly an original statement but Planescape seems like a setting that would work a lot better with a game other than D&D.
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Dec 31, 2018 01:23
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Nuns with Guns posted:Eberron was made to be approachable and contain room for every classic D&Dism per the rules of the contest it came out of. It's funny because Eberron was allowed to push the limit other rules of the contest like limiting the tech level (but no guns!!!) But this was apparently hard constraint. Right! I'm just saying that it does it well while also feeling like it's own thing.
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Dec 31, 2018 01:23
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Double post
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Dec 31, 2018 01:24
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If only Planescape had some kind of sample adventure.
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Dec 31, 2018 01:26
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Kai Tave posted:Yeah pretty much. You can see in places where Baker was pushing up against the limits required by the nature of the setting search, like with alignment where the original book all but practically says "alignment is real dumb and you should ignore it" with how he goes to great lengths to explain that this person with Evil on their character sheet is actually trying to prevent a war while this other person with Good is trying to start one, that alignments are more of a fluid and subjective thing, etc. Don't they do something funky with gods, too? I've gained a lot from osmosis from reading Morgrave for a startling number of years now, but my eyes kinda gloss over when it comes to your Cleric? Paladin? (That's how bad it is.)
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Dec 31, 2018 01:33
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Alien Rope Burn posted:If only Planescape had some kind of sample adventure. I mean, sure, it has sample adventures, but it doesn't lend itself to simple explanation to players. I've tried explaining to at least three different groups and I've gotten nothing but blank looks in return. It does not lend itself to simple characters and easy start ups.
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Dec 31, 2018 01:36
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Dawgstar posted:Don't they do something funky with gods, too? I've gained a lot from osmosis from reading Morgrave for a startling number of years now, but my eyes kinda gloss over when it comes to your Cleric? Paladin? (That's how bad it is.) The gods aren't active characters in the fiction, despite being worshipped. None of that power from prayer crap.
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Dec 31, 2018 01:39
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Dawgstar posted:Don't they do something funky with gods, too? I've gained a lot from osmosis from reading Morgrave for a startling number of years now, but my eyes kinda gloss over when it comes to your Cleric? Paladin? (That's how bad it is.) The deities in Eberron are distinctly uninvolved and distant, to a point where unlike other settings, it's possible for in-universe people to question their existence. The exception to this would be various demons, ancient spellcasters, and extra-dimensional beings claiming godhood, and a pillar of white flame made from combining the souls of a female paladin, a couatl, and a demon lord together. The pillar of white flame has understandably evangelical followers, but the voice of the demon probably still comes through it occasionally. This leads to such lovely things a the mass genocide of lycanthtopes in Eberron.
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Dec 31, 2018 01:41
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The key points of Planescape are that the planes are shaped by belief, the default setting is a cosmopolitan city at the center of all realities, and it's got weird quasi-British punk stylings. It's a good setting for "travelogue" style campaigns, and the ideal character is someone obsessively defined by their ideology.
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Dec 31, 2018 01:42
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S.J. posted:The gods aren't active characters in the fiction, despite being worshipped. None of that power from prayer crap. wasn't eberron the first d&d setting that went 'no, the power comes from your faith, not your god'?
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Dec 31, 2018 01:46
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I should also add that Sovereign Host, the primary pantheon of the main content in Eberron, became the predominant faith by being intentionally generic enough for gnomish scholars to go around to everyone else's pantheon and declaring X or Y god was an aspect of one of the Sovereigns or the Dark Six. In that way they basically absorbed humans, dwarves, half elves, some halfings, some elves, goblinoids, and various other monstrous humanoids into one massive monoreligion. E- the common language was also spread by the gnomes, too. Brother Entropy posted:wasn't eberron the first d&d setting that went 'no, the power comes from your faith, not your god'? Don't know if it was the first but it was a specific point of the setting that you don't have to devote yourself to a particular god to get divine magic. E2- Eberron's afterlife is also widely-known to suck and be a lovely gray wasteland. That's a big reason why avoiding the afterlife through the Blood of Vol is appealing to the common people. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Dec 31, 2018 |
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Dec 31, 2018 01:49
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Brother Entropy posted:wasn't eberron the first d&d setting that went 'no, the power comes from your faith, not your god'? It was the first to really canonize that as a universal concept. They kinda danced around 'look your god is your PATRON but the thing that matters is how strong your FAITH is, not everyone who prays to Elfgod is a Cleric' in lots of books but this was the first they said 'look you don't even need a god you can be a 'true believer' in just the idea of Justice.' Planescape is very good but it feels like a setting designed for fiction more than interaction if that makes sense. I love it but Eberron just has so many venues and routes to go you can tell most any story even though pulpy high fantasy is the base.
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Dec 31, 2018 02:04
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ProfessorCirno posted:Like Gygax referenced the initiator of the loving Sand Creek Massacre as someone to think about when making a paladin. He was a bad person. Some choice quotes from ol' Gary: quote:The old addage about nits making lice applies. and quote:Chivington might have been quoted as saying "nits make lice," but he is certainly not the first one to make such an observation as it is an observable fact. EDIT: And for those who aren't familiar with the nits and lice thing, it's a quote about why it's okay to kill babies so long as they're not white babies.
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Dec 31, 2018 02:12
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