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CJ posted:What is the goal of having the extra fights? Is it to make it less likely that they would survive/be able to reach the end before giving up? I'm not sure i would want to put in trash fights because TPK/giving up before the end of the dungeon because they rolled bad and had to fight twice as many things as i planned for doesn't seem that fun. It maybe doesn't have to be a fight per se, but a roll has got to have stakes, and "you lose some HP" is the most basic possible stake that interacts "correctly" with the game that doesn't require anything more elaborate.
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Jan 7, 2019 03:36
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CJ posted:I like letting everyone with proficiency roll because if two people have heavily overlapping specialities i feel like they should get something out of it, as it has the opportunity cost of lacking in some other area. A group of 5 wizards should probably be better at arcana checks than the group with 4 barbs and 1 wizard. Fair enough, but that's exactly what Toshimo was saying that they'd like to avoid.
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Jan 7, 2019 03:39
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AlphaDog posted:Fair enough, but that's exactly what Toshimo was saying that they'd like to avoid. No, they were complaining about where everyone rolls on everything so proficiencies don't matter due to rolling so many dice someone is going to roll high on average. This way your character build matters because you can't just luck into rolling a 20 in a skill that uses your dump stat. gradenko_2000 posted:It maybe doesn't have to be a fight per se, but a roll has got to have stakes, and "you lose some HP" is the most basic possible stake that interacts "correctly" with the game that doesn't require anything more elaborate. Yeah i might have been taking it too literally. I just don't like fights with random enemies because resolving combat is a chore so i'd rather devote that time to fights that i've put thought into so it's more than trading blows. I also only DM one shots so my perspective is probably different from an ongoing campaign. CJ fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Jan 7, 2019 |
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Jan 7, 2019 03:44
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I don't mind players succeeding in getting lore-dumps and or advancing plot 'too easily' a bad thing. Opposite of this is the Everyone must roll to succeed tests, like stealthily sneaking into camp. If GM makes everyone to roll stealth for that, it is almost guaranteed to fail.
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Jan 7, 2019 04:35
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A lot of the time I see a DM sort of work out an average between everyone. When it comes to the one roll thing, I'd allow a bard to help along with everything else AlphaDog said. It's kind of what they -do-. I'd also let stuff like the Halfling Luck feat, or an item that might do something similar apply. Lets everyone feel like they get to do something outside of combat, which is definitely a big reason you see the whole table begin rolling sometimes. Most of my DMs are good about announcing who rolls though.
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Jan 7, 2019 04:55
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adhuin posted:I don't mind players succeeding in getting lore-dumps and or advancing plot 'too easily' a bad thing. My GMs tend to just average group stealth rolls so the armored noisy guys don't ruin it for everyone
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Jan 7, 2019 05:13
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Wait, some DMs make entire groups do checks without using the group ability check roles? 
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Jan 7, 2019 05:18
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Kaysette posted:Wait, some DMs make entire groups do checks without using the group ability check roles? I'm just referring to the general case, not 5e specifically
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Jan 7, 2019 05:19
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Kaysette posted:Wait, some DMs make entire groups do checks without using the group ability check roles? Yes, because that ensures that everybody gets to roll An Dice each session. It's substantially different in other games, but in D&D the expectation is that you get to roll some dice, and a lot of players are unhappy when they don't get to. If your group is happy to use group rolls, more power to you, but that isn't true for a lot of people.
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Jan 7, 2019 05:20
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Besesoth posted:Yes, because that ensures that everybody gets to roll An Dice each session. It's substantially different in other games, but in D&D the expectation is that you get to roll some dice, and a lot of players are unhappy when they don't get to. Everyone still rolls in the group check rules...
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Jan 7, 2019 05:49
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Kaysette posted:Everyone still rolls in the group check rules... I just looked it up, and you're right, everyone rolls. The example they give in the text is why it's a hilariously stupid idea: "if >50% roll well, then nobody gets stuck in the quicksand. Otherwise, everybody does!" There's literally no advantage to this over just having everybody roll separately, except in the circumstance where one party member has a relatively low bonus compared to everybody else. So again: why would anybody use this except in that circumstance?
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Jan 7, 2019 06:21
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I think quicksand would be a save? There's a difference between everyone rolling for the same effect on their own character, and having everyone roll for something that the group succeeds at if even one person at, like history checks.
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Jan 7, 2019 06:28
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"The group doesn't fall into quicksand" is literally one of the examples in the SRD: https://5thsrd.org/rules/abilities/ability_checks/#working-together
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Jan 7, 2019 06:29
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Haha okay, fair enough. It looks like the example is a survival check, so I'm thinking it's to see if the quicksand is a problem for the group as they travel across a long distance. If it's something the group has to do more than once, then making everyone check individually is almost always going to result in a "person-stuck-in-quicksand" scene, while a group check has the roughly the same odds of succeeding as an average character doing a single check. A group of 5 has a 83% chance of having someone roll a 6 or lower.
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Jan 7, 2019 06:59
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Trip report from my group's latest session: We ran into exactly what the thread has been discussing: After entering a warehouse from the back entrance, and the big bad (level 8 Warlock) getting a little overconfident in positioning because the DM expected that we would turtle at a chokepoint instead of charging in, we ended up landing several rounds of melee attacks with swashbuckler sneak attacks right on the big bad in the first 3 rounds of battle, causing him to go into flight mode, casting darkness, and retreating. Our fighter/battlemaster tank (played by a first-time player) jumped off the railing to chase the big bad taking 5 attacks of opportunity (which all could only succeed on a natural 20 due to shield of faith, and a nice evasive footwork roll). Unfortunately, on the big bad's next turn, he cast Banishment on the tank sending him to a 10-round time-out after a failed CHA save which was his dump stat. We proceeded to play out the battle over the next 2 hours where the DM (who is DM'ing 5e for the first time ever) became very aware how not-fun sitting idle for 10 rounds was for this player and was constantly apologizing to him for it. Unfortunately, due to all of us playing 5e for the first time, none of us realized that we weren't subjecting the big bad to concentration checks each time we damaged him, potentially freeing our fighter. The battle ended up being extremely epic where we only survived because the druid summoned a couple of brown bears that both added some damage, but also attracted attacks and and absorbed several of them. The cleric charged after the big bad because he had murdered a temple priest and stolen an artifact sacred to her god and she announced that my very damaged rogue was not getting any healing because she was all-in on going after him. After I used my rogue move, "dash for action" and "dash for bonus action" to close in melee range, I started to unload attacks with sneak attack on him, but the legendary mace he held reacted to every hit by causing around 8 points of damage per hit back to me. We ended up in an epic confrontation where we knew we would take as much damage attacking as we'd get as a reaction and therefore risked death every round. It worked out for us by taking down the big bad as the reaction damage would have missed taking me down to zero. Ginger Beer Belly fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Jan 7, 2019 |
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Jan 7, 2019 09:15
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Your Cleric also forgot she could immediately end the fight with Hold Person.
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Jan 7, 2019 10:02
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Ginger Beer Belly posted:We ended up in an epic confrontation where we knew we would take as much damage attacking as we'd get as a reaction and therefore risked death every round. It worked out for us by taking down the big bad as the reaction damage would have missed taking me down to zero. How much damage were you putting out? Remember you have to receive enough damage from a single attack that takes your HP to its negative maximum to just die outright.
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Jan 7, 2019 12:01
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Toshimo posted:Trust me I hate this poo poo. you make the gm clearly describe what the results of success & failure will be before the roll also talk to everyone about not rolling when nothing is on the line
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Jan 7, 2019 15:03
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AlphaDog posted:Fair enough, but that's exactly what Toshimo was saying that they'd like to avoid. I like the way my group does it. One person can roll if they have Proficiency. Another person can help if they have Proficiency. If nobody has proficiency then it's open to one person rolling one time. This makes it so: the person with highest chance of success rolls but the Barbarian has a reason to take Investigation or Persuasion: he can help the Wizard or Paladin in a check, even tho he himself may be poo poo at the skill. It is then the job of the players or the GM to narrate how they work together. That way the Barb feels like he's doing something even though someone else is rolling. Edit: Our group has 5-6 players (up to 8) so the above system works because there is usually overlap. If your group only has 3-4 I would change it so person with Proficiency can roll and anyone can help them, priority in narration going to other player who also has Proficiency. Otherwise skill check limitations described above could be detrimentally tough. doctor 7 fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Jan 7, 2019 |
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Jan 7, 2019 15:15
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doctor 7 posted:I like the way my group does it. GORK HELP TINY ELF FRIEND FIND DOOR. GORK GOOD AT LOOKING AT THINGS. GORK SEE MANY THING.
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Jan 7, 2019 15:19
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Toshimo posted:GORK HELP TINY ELF FRIEND FIND DOOR. GORK GOOD AT LOOKING AT THINGS. GORK SEE MANY THING. I usually do it like "the wizard looks high and low but can't seem to find anything but Gork observing from further away can see a bit of dust moving from a source of wind. He points it out to the wizard and they find the hidden door." Something like that. I see a lot of people bitching how fighter and barbarian are useless outside of combat but by using skills as above none of the martial classes feel like filler in skill check situations.
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Jan 7, 2019 15:22
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Conspiratiorist posted:Your Cleric also forgot she could immediately end the fight with Hold Person. The cleric tried Hold Person twice on the Warlock and it saved both times.
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Jan 7, 2019 17:43
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Crossposting from the GM advice thread to get some more feedback: Need some encounter building help/advice. This is for a Curse of Strahd game I'm running, currently on break while another friend DMs a game. Some spoilers for the events in Vallaki but I'm going off book for what I need advice on. My players; a fiend pact warlock, an eldritch knight, a life cleric, and a lycan bloodhunter; have turned Vallaki into somewhat of a safe haven. The bones are back under the church rendering it Hallowed ground. The party hit level 5 at the end of their last session when they deposed the Baron and set up Ismark as the new Burgomeister of Vallaki. They killed the Lady Watcher prior to that along with some of her cultists. They've met Rictavio and discovered his real identity. They'd latched on to idea that there are some remaining cultists in Vallaki that need to be eliminated before they can leave the village. So that's what I need help with is figuring out this mini-adventure. The party does not know that the warlock is a warlock and I decided I can use this to maybe out her (the player is really looking forward to the eventual reveal and how the other players will react). Here's what I have so far: The cultists are going to try to do a ritual to remove the hallowed effect from the church, they've given up on stealing the bones, or maybe they don't know about the bone part. Doesn't matter. They are communicating with each other via glamoured posters. People who aren't in the cult or "touched by a demon" see signs for a new festival. The cultists and the warlock party member will see the true message saying that at a certain day and a certain time they will gather somewhere. The party will find the cultists doing the ritual which will involve some sort of bonfire and a round into the inevitable fight they cultists will beg for aid which summons the face of Strahd formed from the smoke/fire (I just watched the Castlevania anime on Netflix and loved the image of Dracula in the fire from the first episode). The form in the fire will join the battle. What I specifically want advice on is how to do the Strahd-Flame as an enemy, statblock and ability-wise. I don't know if there's a creature in any of the Monster Manuals that would be a good substitute or if I should use some of Strahd's actual stats. I would imagine it would be immobile. I also would like advice as to how many cultists should make up the bulk of the fight, and I want at least one cultist to be a bit more scary than the rest, maybe using one of the NPC warlocks from one of the books. Advice on doing interesting things with the battle via terrain or other things welcome. Maybe the Strahd-Flame can't be directly harmed and needs something else to happen to get rid of it? Maybe there are extra cultists that aren't actually combatants but are performing the ritual and the PCs have to eliminate them while dealing with the actual cultists that are fighting them? Lastly, or really firstly, I would like there to be a bit more steps to the investigation between find the poster and go to the ritual but I'm not sure how to do that. Maybe there should even be a step before the posters. The party may insert their own steps by doing prep things but if not I feel like it should potentially be more involved. At the same time I don't want this to last more than a session or two. Any advice, criticism or ideas welcome. I've got ideas that I think are good but I'm not super experienced in how to do things mechanically. Some things that sound cool can sometimes be actually unfun so avoiding said pitfalls is part of what I'm after.
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Jan 7, 2019 17:57
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Nutsngum posted:How much damage were you putting out? Remember you have to receive enough damage from a single attack that takes your HP to its negative maximum to just die outright. I wasn't in danger of dropping outright dead due to massive damage rules, but I was doing 1d6+5 weapon damage and 2d6 sneak attack damage, and then just the 1d6+5 weapon damage with the offhand (Two Weapon Fighting fighting style) and receiving 10-11 points of retaliation damage per hit, and at the end, the cleric and I were at single digit hit points as we were taking as much damage as we inflicted in retaliation in addition to its Eldritch Blast on its turn. There was a good chance of both of us dropping unconscious and letting the DM decide if he wanted to finish us off before having the Warlock make his escape.
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Jan 7, 2019 18:06
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GORK HELP WITH ANIMAL HANDLING!! GORK HELP WITH HISTORY!!  GORK HELP WITH VEHICLES (LAND)!!  Please share your favorite GORK HELPING pics.
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Jan 7, 2019 18:24
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doctor 7 posted:I see a lot of people bitching how fighter and barbarian are useless outside of combat but by using skills as above none of the martial classes feel like filler in skill check situations. Yeah you realize most of us just houserule and move on at the table right? Nobody ITT is torching their character sheets because the Barbarian didn't get to add STR to an Intimidate check. The only difference is that we post "Yo the RAW fucks over Martials here." Instead of "I'm such a cool and magical DM the rulebooks don't even matter."
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Jan 7, 2019 19:38
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Razorwired posted:Yeah you realize most of us just houserule and move on at the table right? Nobody ITT is torching their character sheets because the Barbarian didn't get to add STR to an Intimidate check. Dude I think you're having an argument with nobody right now, since that's really not what anyone's talking about. Give the last page a reread and maybe tone it down some, because we're all being pretty helpful and supportive of each other on this issue.
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Jan 7, 2019 19:48
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GORK HELP WITH PERSUASION!! GORK HELP WITH COOKING TOOLS!!  GORK HELP WITH FISHING TOOLS!! 
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Jan 7, 2019 19:58
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Epi Lepi posted:Any advice, criticism or ideas welcome. I've got ideas that I think are good but I'm not super experienced in how to do things mechanically. Some things that sound cool can sometimes be actually unfun so avoiding said pitfalls is part of what I'm after. Strahd often appears with swarms / packs of animal minions, so maybe have a group of fire themed creatures show up to keep them occupied while the face shoots the occasional scorching ray at them. I wouldn't have your party really go toe-to-toe with Strahd that early. He's a presence in the valley, but you don't want to start a straight up fight and then have to deus ex machina him away before he starts mercing PCs or you kind of weaken the effect of the eventual brawl at the end of the campaign. If your group likes more dynamic fights and you run a combat grid you can even get video gamey with having walls of fire going off on set lines and at a set schedule. You probably want to telegraph that ahead of time or tone down the damage though. Or IIRC Death House describes Strahd finding cults worshiping him as pathetic, so maybe have the cultists present at the start have robes catch on fire and go pinballing around on fire throughout the fight. Whatever you do, be prepared for your party to come up with the thought of ending the fight early by dousing the Strahd-head and have a plan for how to deal with it in an interesting way.
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Jan 7, 2019 22:20
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mkultra419 posted:Strahd often appears with swarms / packs of animal minions, so maybe have a group of fire themed creatures show up to keep them occupied while the face shoots the occasional scorching ray at them. I wouldn't have your party really go toe-to-toe with Strahd that early. He's a presence in the valley, but you don't want to start a straight up fight and then have to deus ex machina him away before he starts mercing PCs or you kind of weaken the effect of the eventual brawl at the end of the campaign. This alone is extremely good advice, thank you. It didn't occur to me when I was thinking this up but of course they'll try to extinguish the flame. When we start up again it'll be after a long break and I want them to encounter Strahd in some way to reinforce his presence. They haven't actually had a Strahd encounter of any kind since early in the campaign. I figured this was a way to have Strahd present but not present. I was thinking he'd fire off some scorching ray and firebolt in between his utility spells like fog cloud or gust of wind or something.
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Jan 8, 2019 05:10
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I've been ruminating on what to do to punch up non-casters a bit, and I hit upon something I like. Basically, what if you integrated concentration into martial characters? Give people 'stances' that they can drop into for a bonus action and then hold up with concentration. Something like Defensive Stance, passive buff to self and neighbors AC, or Interception Stance, take free AoO attacks and do the Sentinel stopping thing, Whirlwind of Blades, everybody who starts their turn/enters my zone takes xdx damage, half on a dex save, etc. etc. Take cover, all ranged attacks against me are made at disadvantage, advantage on dex save, Steel the Mind, advantage on all INT/CHA/WIS saves. Dance Off, target must make a contested performance (dance) check, if they fail, for as long as concentration is maintained, target suffers from low self-esteem. Rally the Minions, give your allies Bless. Like, just the spell Bless, but for a martial class. I'm just spitballing here. Pros: Basically, casters could (and might want to) do all this poo poo, but the opportunity cost for non-casters isn't as bad. It gives people something more interesting choices to make than attack/attack. Integrates bonus actions into every turn. With some classes/early game you just don't have bonus actions to do, now you're always at least thinking 'should I change my concentration' or 'I lost my concentration with that last attack, I need to do that thing again. Likewise, it makes concentration a much bigger part of everyone's thinking. Right now I feel like it's in this weird space where concentration is this background thing that comes up just infrequently enough that my players mishandle it, so it's kind of where I want to either always make it a front of brain thing or ditch it altogether. And, if we apply in to NPCs, I kind of like the dynamic of 'ugh, this CASTER has SPELL they're doing, we have to break his concentration!' It gives combat a goal other than whacking HP sacks. With this there would be more of that. I can imagine scenarios like 'the HONOR GUARD is SHIELDS UP but if the wizard can force him to make a concentration check then the rogue can sneak attack him!' and 'the DISJUNCTOR MAGE is COUNTERSPELLING but if the rogue can break his concentration, the wizard can complete the arcane ritual!' In that sense it kinda fits into the legendary action zone where pieces are doing poo poo not on their turn that the players have to deal with. Cons: Kinda hoses classes that want to do other things with their bonus actions.* More stuff to keep track of. A shitton more dice to roll. CON becomes everyone's default second stat. I should probably just play a different game. Questions: How to do scaling? Who gets to do what 'stances?'** What should I even call these? "Stances?" That Thing You're Thinking About? Pro/Cons: It's basically spells, but not. * My first thought on this is just to let the barbarian just declare rage on their turn like they would reckless attack or something. Just, you know, do it. In this sense, barbarians get a number of 'rage' stances that take no actions and that they can't be knocked out of, and then they can layer other stances on top of that. Likewise, let the rogues dash/disengage/hide for free' ** My instinct is 'everyone gets all of them' but that would probably be overwhelming and lead to lots of hemming and hawing. Maybe let people choose a number of 'known' stances like known spells, and give each class a special stance? the JJ fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 08:19
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Feel free to have a look at this universal maneuvers system cooked up out of the threads regular martial talk. This is the $3 version which has better balanced implementation table and more maneuvers including more social / influence options. There's an update coming out which is intending to line up some maneuvers to the warfare rules in the Strongholds and Followers book from Colville. This is the pwyy which is an earlier version of the above. Most of the maneuvers are borrowed or adapted from previous work by goons and others so go nuts, use it as you like. I had similar questions to your about scaling and who gets to use maneuvers. Hope it's helpful to the system for your game. Seems to be about every 8 pages someone prompts me to post this again, so see y'all on page 24 I guess. clusterfuck fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 14:43
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the JJ posted:I've been ruminating on what to do to punch up non-casters a bit, and I hit upon something I like. Cons: only does things in combat, does nothing to help martials stay relevant outside of combat compared to spells.
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Jan 8, 2019 16:03
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Spikes32 posted:Cons: only does things in combat, does nothing to help martials stay relevant outside of combat compared to spells.
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Jan 8, 2019 17:16
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Cool fun quotes from White Plume Mountain: DM: "I don't have a weight listed for a Manticore" Me: "That's easy. Just sum up the weights of the animals that comprise it. DM:  -------------- Me: "I use True Polymorph on the door to turn it into a jar. DM: "But you're not a wizard?" Rest of Party:  -------------- DM: You see a room full of Horrible Torture Instruments Emanating Foul Magicks. Me: The Laws of Mechanus will not abide this. We will find the perpetrators and put them to the sword. DM: I don't really have a map for this. It's supposed to be an alternate Game Over screen. Are you going in alone? Me: ARE YOU WITH ME, BOYS? Rest of Party: 
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Jan 8, 2019 22:32
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I've done variations on White Plume Mountain three times and just do not get DMs' love for that place. It reminds me of Doom levels I made as a kid where every room is a new gimmick and there's no unifying concept or natural purpose to anything.
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Jan 8, 2019 22:44
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The Yiff Room.
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Jan 8, 2019 22:51
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Nehru the Damaja posted:I've done variations on White Plume Mountain three times and just do not get DMs' love for that place. It reminds me of Doom levels I made as a kid where every room is a new gimmick and there's no unifying concept or natural purpose to anything. I've actually never run it before (but I've been hearing about it since 2E). It's been fun so far because we're not taking it super seriously. It's massively overused in Adventurers League because it's one of a small handful (like 3 or 4 total out of ~200) modules that have a bunch of bonus loot beyond normal accruals.
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Jan 8, 2019 23:00
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Nehru the Damaja posted:I've done variations on White Plume Mountain three times and just do not get DMs' love for that place. It reminds me of Doom levels I made as a kid where every room is a new gimmick and there's no unifying concept or natural purpose to anything. I've only read through the 5th ed one but yeah, it looks like the same deal as the first and second ed ones and the hackmaster version: a gimmicky dungeon crawl with no coherent theme. But I guess it's true to the source and that's what counts.
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Jan 8, 2019 23:15
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Never mind. gently caress this poo poo forever. She added a mind flayer to the crab fight, went first, and Mind blasted the whole party. "A DM who ran this for me did this and it was FUN!
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Jan 8, 2019 23:22
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