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Ynglaur posted:Counterpoint: zombie velociraptors with swords for arms. Swords. For arms. So close to being good, but the giant swords being attached at the wrists gives them weirdly long arms in a way that does not please me. lol but seriously I posted:I feel like a lot of the "complexity" is [in this book I'm going to write this guy as a complete bastard] and then [in this book I'm going to write this guy as a just man doing what he must]. I was somewhat fatigued when I wrote this and and as written its pretty much inaccurate. What I'm failing to express here is that after the fifth massively pyrrhic victory or another scene where two characters meet to discuss something but the meat of their discussion is glossed over to keep things mysterious I started to feel like I was being dicked around. Certain story beats keep repeating in different guise and I get to thinking that maybe this didn't need to be 10 books long. But then a lot of the weird digressions are the most interesting bits and is darkly humorous how often things sort of splutter out in an anticlimax.
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Dec 8, 2018 23:03
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lol but seriously I posted:So close to being good, but the giant swords being attached at the wrists gives them weirdly long arms in a way that does not please me. I feel the same, there's lots of stuff that is needlessly obtuse, and a lot of minor hints and insinuations don't line up, or at least contradict each other. Subjectively, I much prefer a book that openly says when it's being vague (like Bakker, who has whole pages of "nobody knows, but this dead scholar thought it was [x]") instead of the way Erikson has a million characters all speaking with absolute authority on stuff that is then shown to be nonsense. Or delivering portentous warnings that don't make a lick of sense. But, it wouldnt be Malazan without them. As frustrating as I find it, you'd lose a lot of the wonder and moments of epiphany if you spelled it out. Stuff like the reveals that the Imass are way more horrible, and the Kchain way more tragic than you first think, the fake mythology of the Tiste, the casual folk-stories of the early days of the Emperor. It's weird that the authors insist how you need to pay careful attention to every detail, and then fail to meet their own exacting standards. Few, if any, of the contradictions have any bearing on the plot, which makes it even more irritating to me - don't make me cross-reference your books for clues if it isn't gonna improve my understanding of your story!
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Dec 9, 2018 00:42
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I always thought that was a stylistic choice... Erikson is an archaeologist/historian, and if you study historical accounts of the same event from different sides, you're going to read different stories. Even from State to State in the US, look at the way the Civil War is taught in Texas vs California vs places where it's still called "The War of Northern Aggression." Now, whether or not you enjoy reading something that's trying to mimic an actual collated historic record rather than a single saga or legend is entirely up to you.
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Dec 9, 2018 02:34
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pile of brown posted:I always thought that was a stylistic choice... Erikson is an archaeologist/historian, and if you study historical accounts of the same event from different sides, you're going to read different stories. Even from State to State in the US, look at the way the Civil War is taught in Texas vs California vs places where it's still called "The War of Northern Aggression." I guess I'd just be more comfortable if it was done like a Secondary Source, with nice convenient conversations where people analyse all the conflicting reports. Or I'm just being an awkward bugger. Some of the contradictions I love (the giant clusterfuck that was Aren) and others irrationally piss me off or feel like retcons (whatever the heck the deal is with the Daughters of Shadow)
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Dec 9, 2018 17:07
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lol but seriously I posted:So I've finally finished this. I took a like 6 month break after the first 1/4 of book seven because I felt like I had OD'd on epic bantz, mate but I would say they're is more good than bad overall HOWEVER I feel like a lot of the "complexity" is [in this book I'm going to write this guy as a complete bastard] and then [in this book I'm going to write this guy as a just man doing what he must]. My main questions (having not read this long rear end thread are) 1) I doubt Rake had any idea of what the Shake would do. His plan was to 'save' his people by persuading Mother Dark to return 2) I wasn't sure what this meant, so I went and looked. It's probably a typo or editing/formatting error 2.1) It's probably clarified in the Kharkanas trilogy, but without reading it I'd imagine something something 'splitting the realm as the Tiste were split'. The Liosan realm is clearly on the other side of the Shore, but it also seems to be a fair distance outside of the actual city of Kharkanas As for your general points about characterisation; at the risk of suggesting you go back and re-read a mammoth series you just finished, I think there are some characters where initial impressions are somewhat misleading. On a re-read, I'd say it's only Silchas Ruin who still comes across as a bit too vague (and that feels like an intentional choice by the author).
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Dec 11, 2018 00:38
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I can remember that coming up in book 3, whats the hint in book 1? I don't remember exactly but Crone either says it or thinks it. As in it's not even a vague hint, it's clearly stated.
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Dec 11, 2018 09:43
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Man with Hat posted:I don't remember exactly but Crone either says it or thinks it. As in it's not even a vague hint, it's clearly stated. Crone and Baruk are some of my favourite parts of the series, just chilling out and being sassy. Especially with the overwrought "oral histories". I'm hoping that when Walk in Shadow finally appears we get Mandy and Osric with blood on their face.
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Dec 12, 2018 20:57
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I guess I'd just be more comfortable if it was done like a Secondary Source, with nice convenient conversations where people analyse all the conflicting reports. The series is meant to mimic an in universe history. “The Malazan Book of the Fallen” is an existing book in the setting. Erickson goes out of his way to portray this in Toll the Hounds by switching styles to cover certain areas of the story.
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Dec 13, 2018 22:50
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Written by TCG so it's a wonder why the first few books portray him so
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Dec 13, 2018 23:14
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Finished tCG. Wrapping up a ten book series with a variety of prequels and spinoffs is near impossible but it pretty much stuck the landing. It played great while I was reading but a few of them are kind of annoying me after the thought. Mappo joins Trull in 'most painful deaths'. Almost all the rest were heroic sacrifices where the people involved knew what they were doing but he dies thinking he failed his only friend. In general Icarium (and Karsa) get weirdly short shrift in the back half given how much setup he had. And then he even gets the last line of the series as one more vague cipher! It mostly paid off the more brutal parts of slogging through Dust of Dreams. The Snake ended up being crucial thematically, and the battle of the Shore was extremely effective, with Sand trapped in memories on the throne really contributing to the feeling of despair. Although nothing could have paid off just how long we spent with Nimander and company. I hated Hetan's hobbling, and hated her resurrection even more as it cheapened it although i will cop that he showed his work in terms of Toc dragging her body around. Also Tool and Kilava, kind of dicks to get the unambiguously happy endings. He murdered a bunch of kids one book ago! In a series that can be distilled to 'empathy and also sacrifice for the kids' that was a bit of an off note. More of the POV characters than I expected survived, and those that didn't get pretty fantastic deaths. Torrent, Gall, Stormy, and Gesler being the tops obviously. Quick Ben remained plot armored, even getting kept offscreen for large chunks to avoid solving everything with his indeterminate amount of magic. The one real surprise to me is that I was completely convinced the series was going to end with Shadowthrone and Cotillion's plan being the death of gods in general, including themselves. The pivot from that to 'better people make better gods' worked though. This is going to sound crazy because it was probably my favorite individual book but meta plot wise you kiiiinda could have cut Midnight Tides and the invasion of Lether entirely and have the Bonehunters go straight from Malaz City to Kolanse. Also the bolkando were very enjoyable but take up a LOT of space in the last couple books that seemed odd. Dangling questions: Ruthan Gudd? Why? He didn't do anything, you never find out what his deal was. Felisen Younger and her cult? We never heard about her and I kind of expected it to come back up. Weren't there a bunch of dangling threads from Toll the Hounds? With Duiker/Picker/The Seguleh. The T'lan Imass that gets legs from the mines in TtH gets his own line since it seemed like such a big deal to go nowhere. Errastas/Draconus. Silverfox. What exactly WAS Shadowthrone's plan since it wasn't 'get rid of the gods and let the mortals figure things out'?
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Dec 13, 2018 23:42
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Some good takes in there. Some answers to a few of those question. Darujistan plots are continued in Orb, Scepter, Throne. Ruthan Gudd is still a mystery . Draconus and Errastus feature and get fleshed out in Kharkanas, still awaiting an ending of course. The Kharkanas books rule and you should read them. The upcoming Karsa books are set 10 years post TCG so expect some further resolution there.
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Dec 14, 2018 08:50
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Yarrington posted:Although nothing could have paid off just how long we spent with Nimander and company. A lot of the dangling threads are resolved in the ICE books too, although I would not recommend reading most of them. In particular, the resolutions for Silverfox, Seguleh, and basically all the Darujhistan stuff are disappointing as gently caress; might be better to keep them a mystery.
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Dec 14, 2018 10:45
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Yarrington posted:
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Dec 14, 2018 12:34
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Just finished Stonewielder. Esslemont's definitely getting better by the book. Wonder if that trajectory will continue with Orb Sceptre Throne. Looking forward to it in any case as I like the Darujhistan setting and the idea of continuing on from events there after Toll the Hounds.
OneSizeFitsAll fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Dec 14, 2018 |
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Dec 14, 2018 17:18
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OST is actually really solid.
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Dec 14, 2018 17:29
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kingturnip posted:As for your general points about characterisation; at the risk of suggesting you go back and re-read a mammoth series you just finished, You say it like it is a bad thing. OneSizeFitsAll posted:Just finished Stonewielder. Esslemont's definitely getting better by the book. Wonder if that trajectory will continue with Orb Sceptre Throne. Looking forward to it in any case as I like the Darujhistan setting and the idea of continuing on from events there after Toll the Hounds. OST was good. Just don’t read Assail unless you want to be severely disappointed.
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Dec 14, 2018 18:24
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:Wonder if that trajectory will continue with Orb Sceptre Throne. But I'm
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Dec 14, 2018 19:33
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anilEhilated posted:Nope. I love Dadujhistan conceptually. A million different plots and plans piling into each other and nobody has a clue what's going on? That's Coen brothers as gently caress, sign me up. He kinda fucks it in GotM though. Sorry spends the whole book deducing information that the reader knows to be inaccurate, the Coinbearer plot line seems to be one gigantic double bluff, and I don't think I could tell you the significance of Baruk/Mammot not realising that Crokus is Mammot/Baruk's even if I had a loving diagram
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Dec 14, 2018 20:16
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I started reading The Black Company and love it so far. You know what I miss tho? The worldbuilding.
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Dec 18, 2018 16:50
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I read all the Black Company books some years back and really enjoyed them. You can definitely see the influence on writers like Erikson but I prefer Erikson's more descriptive prose and detailed world-building. He does humour more effectively than Cook too. Would recommend the Black Company series to anyone looking for a sort of Malazan-lite with more scaled-down and efficient plotting and prose.
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Dec 18, 2018 17:33
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:Would recommend the Black Company series to anyone looking for a sort of Malazan-lite with more scaled-down and efficient plotting and prose. Efficient plotting is not how I would describe the latter Black company books. They were more of a shaggy dogs tale with no focused overall story arc. Which on the other hand is typical Cook. His other series also have a tendency to end up like that.
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Dec 18, 2018 18:21
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Cardiac posted:Efficient plotting is not how I would describe the latter Black company books. They were more of a shaggy dogs tale with no focused overall story arc. Hmm, been too long for me to debate that either way. But I mainly meant that they are far less sprawling and complicated than Erikson's plots.
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Dec 18, 2018 18:30
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goons were mentioning Bonehunters a page or two ago and i wanted to dust off this theory, havent seen it out there much if at all, i invite you to prove me wrong, if you can... In the Bonehunters Sin saves everyone (well not everyone some get fried) from the fire elemental right? but is Sin truly just another undiscovered High Mage? (there do seem to be a bunch of them around... Beak(rip), QB, Bottle? ) or is does Sin somehow become the fire elemental? or does she bond with it, take it into herself somehow? 'What do you mean?' 'I mean a fire elemental's being born here, I think. A fire spirit, a godling. We got a firestorm on the way, and that will announce its arrival – and that's when we die if we ain't dead already. But an elemental is alive. It's got a will, a mind, damned hungry and eager to kill. But it knows fear, fear because it knows it won't last long – too fierce, too hot – days at best. And it knows other kinds of fear, too, and that's where maybe I can do something – illusions. Of water, but not just water. A water elemental.' He stared round at the others, who were all staring back, then shrugged. 'Maybe, maybe not. How smart is an elemental? Got to be smart to be fooled, you see. Dog-smart, at least, better if it was smarter. Problem is, not everybody agrees that elementals even exist. I mean, I'm convinced it's a good theory—' Balm cracked him across the head. 'All this on a theory? You wasted all that air on that? Gods below, Widdershins, I'm minded to kill you right now.' He rose. 'Let's get going, while we can. To Hood with the damned palace – let's take the alley opposite and when the theoretical elemental arrives we can shake its hand and curse it to the nonexistent Abyss. Come on – and you, Widdershins, not another word, got it?' Bonehunters Chapter 7
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Dec 18, 2018 19:22
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Isn't what happened to Sinn explicitly spelt out in TCG?
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Dec 18, 2018 22:24
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dishwasherlove posted:Isn't what happened to Sinn explicitly spelt out in TCG? I wouldn't say explicitly. Sinn was always High Mage material, but she was abused as a kid (by the mage who took her in after the 7 Cities rebellions, I think) and that possibly broke her. She suggests to Grub that he was 'created' by the Chain of Dogs, and then tries to say that she's the same ('created' by Y'Ghatan) - which Grub rightly points out is wrong, given that she has a half-brother. Sinn is batshit when Kalam meets her and she's batshit at the end of the series; the main difference is that she's older, more powerful and keen to show off.
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Dec 19, 2018 11:35
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:Hmm, been too long for me to debate that either way. But I mainly meant that they are far less sprawling and complicated than Erikson's plots. That I can agree on. I like Cook and have enjoyed most of his work. On the other hand, having a less sprawling and complicated plot than Erikson is not saying much, since it summarizes most other fantasy.
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Dec 19, 2018 14:36
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CoolHandMat posted:goons were mentioning Bonehunters a page or two ago and i wanted to dust off this theory, havent seen it out there much if at all, i invite you to prove me wrong, if you can... I've never read this theory but had the exact same one on my second read through.
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Dec 21, 2018 17:02
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Having spent a boozy boxing day reading Fall of Light and watching The Dirty Dozen, I have two main thoughts. 1. Fall of Light is really unchristmassy. It's essentially a complete failure of "goodwill to all men" 2. Holy crap Malazan is the dirty dozen. I've barely watched any war films, but the influence is so obvious. Raggedy troops on a suicide mission, crazy stunts with grenades, rear end in a top hat officers being dicked on.
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Dec 26, 2018 22:25
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It’s got massive influence from the entire era of 50’s and 60’s war movies.
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Dec 26, 2018 23:58
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Also see "Platoon".
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Dec 27, 2018 14:47
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I finished book 1 maybe two years ago so I don't remember much from it. What's the best place to read up on it to get caught up before I start book 2?
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Dec 31, 2018 18:32
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loudog999 posted:I finished book 1 maybe two years ago so I don't remember much from it. What's the best place to read up on it to get caught up before I start book 2? The Tor Reread is in depth, spoiler free and includes both plot summaries and analysis.
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Dec 31, 2018 18:40
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I never noticed before how much broken pottery there is in this series. Why is every location full of broken pottery?
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Dec 31, 2018 19:30
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Potsherds for days.
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Dec 31, 2018 19:34
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One of the things I love about Erikson is the variety in his answers to people's questions in the TOR re-read. Sometimes he'll go on really intense, passionate, rants about all the thematic stuff he's trying to do with the series, sometimes he admits he pulled something from his rear end (there's no reason the story takes place in 1194 Burn's Sleep, he just doodled it on a map 25 years ago), there are bits he deliberately leaves unexplained to give himself room later, sometimes he just wants a mystery. And sometimes Karsa wrestles a dinosaur because gently caress it, time for a fun fight scene. Which means the answer to this: thumper57 posted:I never noticed before how much broken pottery there is in this series. Why is every location full of broken pottery? Could be because he's trying to drive home the idea of civilisations built in layers. Or because as an archaeologist and potsherds are a really important bit of history everyone ignores. Or maybe he just likes the word.
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Dec 31, 2018 19:51
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thumper57 posted:I never noticed before how much broken pottery there is in this series. Why is every location full of broken pottery? It was created by archaeologists. Broken pottery is their bread and butter.
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Dec 31, 2018 19:51
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Could be because he's trying to drive home the idea of civilisations built in layers. And to be fair, civilisations being built in layers is actually a plot point in most of the books. The only books I can think of that don't have major plot hooks on this idea are Gardens of the Moon and Toll The Hounds.
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Jan 1, 2019 03:02
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WrightOfWay posted:The Tor Reread is in depth, spoiler free and includes both plot summaries and analysis. Thanks for this. It's crazy how much I forgot happened in that book. If it wasn't for a few scenes that I remember I would swear I never read it. Maybe it's due a reread before starting the second.
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Jan 1, 2019 03:16
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kingturnip posted:And to be fair, civilisations being built in layers is actually a plot point in most of the books. Talking of layers, there's one thing I'm really curious about regarding the First Empire. When Dessimbelackis went fooey, what happened to the Jheck/Jheleck? They clearly predate his ritual, as they exist in Lether and in the Kharkanas trilogy. It seems likely that Dessimbelackis blew up the Beast Hold (as it hosed soletaken, and attracted the Imass, who have a kinship with both the Hold and the Empire) so surely it would have done something crazy to all soletaken. Although the Kharkanas trilogy shows soletaken and d'ivers before the creation of Warrens (but maybe after the Holds?) so perhaps there's more than one route to shape-shifting.
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Jan 1, 2019 03:41
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There definitely is, I’m pretty sure it’s mentioned that the ritual was meant to be a short cut to give everyone the power of the first heroes. Plus the Forkrul Assail god turning into a D’verse at the moment of death would predate the first empire by a few thousand years too.
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Jan 8, 2019 04:58
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