|
Blood Boils posted:Charlie Angus is ndp Sure he is, but that's not an NDP policy and I don't get to vote for Charlie.
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 18:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 07:55 |
|
|
Next time you think the NDP believes in a good policy keep in mind this statement by the guy who is probably as close to an NDP insider perspective as you'll get itt:Pinterest Mom posted:The point I'm trying to make is that it's likely a mistake to believe that being better on policy is an electoral winner. I haven't really seen numbers that bear that out, but the evidence I've seen seems to point the opposite way.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 18:34
|
|
|
Helsing posted:Next time you think the NDP believes in a good policy keep in mind this statement by the guy who is probably as close to an NDP insider perspective as you'll get itt: Considering we live in a country where empty quoting leftist policy is enough to cause mass outrage, he may be right. The NDP for years have been described as the looney left, the tax and spend socialists (to be fair the liberals get hit with this too) the amateur party with stupid ideas etc etc. At this point ANYTHING they say will just sound like Stalinism to anyone but the most well informed voters. For us the NDP isn't left wing enough, for everyone out there in the working world (white collar blue collar etc) the NDP is extreme and unrealistic. Life in Canada isn't hopeless enough for enough people for the NDP to achieve the critical mass they need to run successfully on leftist policies. I think it'll be at least 2 generations and more people like AOC fighting the good fight down south before Canadians take notice and change their tune.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 18:50
|
|
|
When things get bad it will be fascism though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 18:56
|
|
|
Really, there's no need to attack the NDP this way, I haven't been involved with the party in several years 😇
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 19:19
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:When things get bad it will be fascism though. Smash an atom, that's fusion. Shear an atom, that's fission. Sheer an Andrew, that's fascism.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 21:31
|
|
|
Speaking of NDP insiders.. https://albertapolitics.ca/2019/01/...is-year-to-win/ quote:Describing the federal NDP as “a coalition of progressive-minded pragmatists and romantics,” he argues his party must confront both the collapse of “third-way” social democratic role models in the democracies of the West and the “dangerous successor appeal” of populist neo-fascism to working class voters.  quote:So how might this work, according to Mr. Topp? Am I correctly understanding that Topp wants the NDP to distinguish itself by going full milquetoast third way, carefully avoiding being branded Liberals or Conservative, yet offering nothing radically different?
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 22:30
|
|
|
No, you're not correctly understanding. "Confront" means "look this model is collapsing, time to let it go". It's really unclear what Topp is proposing, though. quote:First, as the 2015 campaign demonstrated and as New Democrats are most unlikely ever to forget again, victory for the NDP will not be found in pretending to be the Conservatives. Harper-era austerity is not what the people of Canada are looking for from New Democrats.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 22:42
|
|
|
EvidenceBasedQuack posted:Speaking of NDP insiders.. quote:Mr. Topp concludes: “Victory will be found here: Working class voters, in both official languages and on both sides of the Rockies, want a raise. They want 40 years of the Revenge of the Rentiers to end. They want the benefits of this economy tilted a little more to their benefit, for the first time in a long while. And they would like to know somebody in Ottawa cares about their jobs, their economic security and the future of their children.”
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 22:45
|
|
|
If you read Topp's piece he is arguing that the NDP should boldly distinguish itself from the other parties by... talking about the same tired cliches using the exact same language that the other parties use.quote:Victory will be found here: Working class voters, in both official languages and on both sides of the rockies, want a raise. They want forty years of the Revenge of the Rentiers to end. They want the benefits of this economy tilted a little more to their benefit, for the first time in a long while. And they would like to know somebody in Ottawa cares about their jobs, their economic security and the future of their children. Cut that one sentence about rentiers and this would be perfectly at home in the campaign materials of any of the major parties.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 22:55
|
|
|
Helsing posted:If you read Topp's piece he is arguing that the NDP should boldly distinguish itself from the other parties by... talking about the same tired cliches using the exact same language that the other parties use. Find-and-replace "working" with "middle" and it's a Trudeau speech.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 22:58
|
|
|
So he's offering real change? Seriously, though, I appreciate your clarifications. That article got me really confused because it's all over the place with no concrete suggestions for platform or policy 
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 23:43
|
|
|
I'm just amazed anyone gives a gently caress what Brian Topp has to say in 2019.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 23:45
|
|
|
EvidenceBasedQuack posted:So he's offering real change? Well, Topp ran the 2013 BCNDP campaign that brought us "Change for the better: One practical step at a time." as a slogan.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 23:49
|
|
|
I love when Politicians panic and start putting slogans and branding everywhere. Like Harper's "Economic Action Plan" or the jingle they play on GoC commercials. My favourite is the "Good Jobs, Steady Growth" of the outgoing Manitoba NDP
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 23:54
|
|
|
DariusLikewise posted:I love when Politicians panic and start putting slogans and branding everywhere. Like Harper's "Economic Action Plan" or the jingle they play on GoC commercials. My favourite is the "Good Jobs, Steady Growth" of the outgoing Manitoba NDP "Keep
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 23:58
|
|
|
Pinterest Mom posted:Well, Topp ran the 2013 BCNDP campaign that brought us "Change for the better: One practical step at a time." as a slogan. Which was shameful political malpractice when it was so obvious what the slogan should have been... 
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 23:59
|
|
|
I like how they always mention how Topp ran the 2015 Alberta NDP campaign as if Notley's win was some masterstroke of political genius run by the NDP's smartest braintrust and not the other parties imploding on live television.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2019 23:59
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/UnistotenCamp/status/1082422214115225600 Heavy motherfucking Yikes
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 01:04
|
|
|
EvidenceBasedQuack posted:all over the place with no concrete suggestions for platform or policy next ndp campaign slogan
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 01:19
|
|
|
More about the interim injunction. Not sure what to think about this. Two groups claim to administer this land, one has a deal to run the pipe, the other says the first doesn't have the rights to make that deal because that's tribal land. Yeah there's a court injunction, but what business does a court have to tell any First Nation what'll be done on their territory?
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 01:21
|
|
|
UnknownMercenary posted:I'm already sick of 2019 https://twitter.com/OmarMosleh/status/1081626262291009536 Do not be despondent at the emergence of a yellow vest movement in Canada simply because the movement is at present dominated by reactionary right-wing racists. The underlying cause of the yellow-vest movement is dissatisfaction with the status quo, and this wellspring of working-class anger can benefit leftists as surely as it is currently aiding fascists. The core problem with our present situation is that there are no charismatic, passionate, genuine leftists to inspire in the people socialist sympathies. There is a leadership vacuum that is being filled instead by the right. But this situation is unlikely to last for long; when opportunity knocks, someone inevitably answers.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 01:57
|
|
|
Postess with the Mostest posted:How many candles do you buy? $3,600 worth please help me budget this my family is dying
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 02:29
|
|
|
Danaru posted:https://twitter.com/UnistotenCamp/status/1082422214115225600 The feds finally running out of patience and smashing the First Nations out west was inevitable, once they bought that stupid loving pipeline and had no choice but to finish it. Until they go full Oka and start heavily arming the checkpoints they're going to continue getting steamrolled, and it will go entirely ignored by both the media and the racist pieces of poo poo which make up the bulk of this failing petrostates population.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 03:30
|
|
|
Whats the end game to having an armed native presence at the gates? They take a pot shot or end up shooting a cop in the leg? Then the entire public starts siding with the state and is ok with it all getting steamrolled. Sadly the pipelines have already been approved federally, so eventually any blockade will be shut down. If it starts with violence, it will only get much,much worse for both sides.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 03:38
|
|
|
It's too bad violence has never helped the cause of any put-upon minority. Ask nicely, get the majority to approve your requests, be careful with your tone.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 03:53
|
|
|
zapplez posted:Whats the end game to having an armed native presence at the gates? They take a pot shot or end up shooting a cop in the leg? Then the entire public starts siding with the state and is ok with it all getting steamrolled. Just because they bought it doesn't mean they actually have to or will end up building it. Obviously that's their objective, but I wouldn't say it's a done deal. Governments change. The economics could get even worse. Things can get tied up in the courts further. Things can get tied up on the ground as well. If it was a 100% done deal, why the gently caress am I still getting bombarded with advertisements about "keeping Canada working"? There seem to be a lot of people still pretty nervous about the whole thing. Why spend the money continually trying to convince British Columbians otherwise? The Butcher fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Jan 8, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 03:54
|
|
|
The Butcher posted:There seem to be a lot of people still pretty nervous about the whole thing. Why spend the money continually trying to convince British Columbians otherwise? Oddly enough, the only British Columbians I know who are convinced it's a good thing are those who retired here from Alberta. I'm told there's a lot of misunderstanding between us and Albertans. We need to hold hands and sing Kumbaya or some loving thing while they fill the bay with dilbit. It would be hilarious if I wasn't reading climate change literature.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 06:00
|
|
|
zapplez posted:Whats the end game to having an armed native presence at the gates? They take a pot shot or end up shooting a cop in the leg? Then the entire public starts siding with the state and is ok with it all getting steamrolled. The government is happy to steamroll an unarmed native gate in the middle of winter, because nobody will give two fucks. They aren't yet at the point where they are willing to start a shooting war, especially with captain selfie in head office. There's a reason that  Is one of the most iconic images in modern Canadian history. Because if the Ashinaabe hadn't had the balls to arm themselves, Oka would have ended pretty loving fast. Get guns, get the media on site, make sure it's broadcast live around the world when the Canadian Government starts shooting natives to build a stupid loving pipeline. E: and British Columbians don't give a flying gently caress what the feds have "approved" from 5000km away in loving Ottowa, they aren't getting that loving pipeline built. The idea that we should just give up, sit here, and lick boots because some profiteers on the other side of the continent told us to is utterly ridiculous, give your loving head a shake. Rime fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Jan 8, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 11:01
|
|
|
Paired with the amount of ads on tv and online advocating pro-pipeline crap, it's really loving gross
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 12:03
|
|
|
The vote manipulation and outright attempts to pit Canadian against Canadian over this on Reddit is pretty amazing to watch. The same dozen accounts parroting the same lines across multiple subs and having them boosted high, while anyone posting vaguely in support of the issue ends up with double-digit negatives within minutes. Another terrifying example of how power players are attempting to foment discord globally by manipulating the message on contentious topics through the use of anonymous shell accounts. This era of the Internet is going to be a case study in a textbook a few years from now, guaranteed.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 17:00
|
|
|
Rime posted:
Quick correction, the Oka standoff was between the government and the Mohawk of Kanesatake. The warrior in that photo is Anishinaabe, but that's more because of how the standoff drew Indigenous peoples from across the nation to stand up against the feds.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 17:11
|
|
|
Rime posted:The vote manipulation and outright attempts to pit Canadian against Canadian over this on Reddit is pretty amazing to watch. The same dozen accounts parroting the same lines across multiple subs and having them boosted high, while anyone posting vaguely in support of the issue ends up with double-digit negatives within minutes. It's amazing how the superficially 'democratic' system of up and down voting posts on reddit makes it laughably easy for anyone with a bit of money or dedicated group of followers to relentlessly manipulate or skew discussions in a way that isn't nearly as easy to do on a traditional chronologically ordered forum. It really is the ideal setup for astroturf campaigns.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 17:22
|
|
|
It’s amazing how many tech people seem to think the democratic process will just work without any safeguards. Like my dudes it doesn’t work that way even if you CAN’T just create more “voters” by registering a new account.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 17:29
|
|
|
Coxswain Balls posted:Quick correction, the Oka standoff was between the government and the Mohawk of Kanesatake. The warrior in that photo is Anishinaabe, but that's more because of how the standoff drew Indigenous peoples from across the nation to stand up against the feds. I appreciate this, actually. I was a bit confused by the difference between caption and stated participants, went with the one I did to be safe. The whole "colonial" titles like Ojibwe VS. "actual" names thing out east is new to me, and I wasn't aware of it before coming out here.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 17:37
|
|
|
Rime posted:I appreciate this, actually. I was a bit confused by the difference between caption and stated participants, went with the one I did to be safe. The whole "colonial" titles like Ojibwe VS. "actual" names thing out east is new to me, and I wasn't aware of it before coming out here. No worries! I'm actually writing this from my Native Studies class, hahah. It becomes a lot easier to remember that stuff once you go into the histories of the various Indigenous nations across the continent. Naming conventions are understandably a bit confusing to get a handle on under our current historical education, because of the names European settler-colonials used, names used for the various alliances and confederacies of Indigenous nations, names for linguistic groups, names that one Indigenous nation would use for another Indigenous nation, and names that Indigenous nations would use for themselves. Part one of Chelsea Vowel's book Indigenous Writes goes over this pretty well, I think. It's available for reading here: https://books.google.ca/books?id=Z1sRDQAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 18:17
|
|
|
Just to clarify, the pipeline going through northern BC is for LNG and is NOT part of the Trans Mountain Project. I'm sure there will be similar conflicts with Trans Mountain in the future but this is a different thing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 18:29
|
|
|
Rime posted:The government is happy to steamroll an unarmed native gate in the middle of winter, because nobody will give two fucks. They aren't yet at the point where they are willing to start a shooting war, especially with captain selfie in head office. I’m not talking about the validity of the approval or the reasonableness of making this pipeline (I disagree with its construction). I just don’t know if you get more public support by bringing more guns into this situation, especially if they ever get used.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 19:20
|
|
|
zapplez posted:I’m not talking about the validity of the approval or the reasonableness of making this pipeline (I disagree with its construction). I just don’t know if you get more public support by bringing more guns into this situation, especially if they ever get used. I think that in general being a nuisance/difficult has brought more positive media attention in the long term to FN protesters then getting steamrolled by the government. Generally they have little to no legal rights to contest the type of issues they'd like to contest due to these issues usually being about private property, removed from urban centres thus out of the public limelight anyways, and the racism that Canadians have generally that means that if FN get steamrolled people aren't going to give a poo poo or respect their noble quiet protest. I think that violent protests also gives the government more incentive to prioritize giving the AFN a bigger/better platform, while they don't necessarily represent the traditional/hereditary chiefs all the time, they're still out there advocating for FN issues and making connections with the Feds which is super cool. The AFN is also kinda about building capacity in some respects which is important for FN people. I think that it's kinda sucky that the AFN tends to denounce armed occupations and such like that, but holistically I think that the possibility of violence will encourage the gov to pay more attention to FN issues and thus support all groups looking to bring attention to them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 19:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 07:55 |
|
|
Bringing guns into the situation is a huge escalation and requires both sides to escalate to keep pushing the issue. This makes it more "expensive" for both sides to keep fighting, but the alternative is just giving in and hoping for the best (which has not a great track record for first nations being strong-armed into giving up their land) Armed blockades, sabotage, and even violence will almost certainly need to be used to stop the pipeline if the government keeps trying to plow through. Public support is irrelevant or at least minor in these situations, but you don't need some 50%+1 support level among the entire population to "win". If 60% of canadians are passively sympathetic to your happy legal non-violent cause and kinda sad you lost your battle that's useless, if 60% of canadians think you've gone too far by having defensive weapons and maybe setting some cop cars or construction vehicles on fire but now 30% of canadians are riled the gently caress up on the side of first-nations and are out protesting and joining the blockade, that's a victory. Passive popular support is useless, active organized resistance, even from a minority, actually gets poo poo done.
|
|
#
?
Jan 8, 2019 19:39
|
|