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I'm not sure D.C. statehood is necessarily a great idea but it should definitely have congressional representation.
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Jan 8, 2019 21:12
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So for any of you who are into large history datasets, Virginia's House of Delegates has put together a database of every person who has served in the lower house of Virginia's legislature since its first incarnation in 1619. We've been hearing a lot about the first Assembly, since this year is its 400th anniversary and the House of Delegates traces itself directly to that meeting. Fun fact: 1,237 white men named John have served in the House of Burgesses/Delegates, while only 91 women period have done so. (But one of them is Danica Roem, so that's cool.  )
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Jan 8, 2019 21:31
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I'm not sure D.C. statehood is necessarily a great idea but it should definitely have congressional representation. Given that the Senate is naturally gerrymandered against Democrats, they're pretty hosed in the long run in the Senate unless they start creating new blue states.
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Jan 8, 2019 21:31
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B B posted:Given that the Senate is naturally gerrymandered against Democrats, they're pretty hosed in the long run in the Senate unless they start creating new blue states. Republicans are already going after Pelosi for saying something like this. quote:NANCY PELOSI BACKS DC STATEHOOD BILL TO COMBAT ‘GOP’S MASS DISENFRANCHISEMENT AGENDA’ https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/07/pelosi-backs-dc-statehood-bill/ I do like this criticism about why we can't have D.C. statehood from a Republican from Wyoming: quote:“If this were to pass, the few people who would be left in the District who could elect electors for the electoral college pursuant to the 23rd Amendment, would have votes vastly greater or disproportionate to the rest of the country.”
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Jan 8, 2019 21:36
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Republicans are already going after Pelosi for saying something like this. Hahahaha there are 100K more people living on D.C. than the entire state of Wyoming. D.C. : 679K Wyoming: 577K
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Jan 8, 2019 21:42
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To be fair, they're talking about a rump Federal District around just the federal buildings. Though in that case, a 23rd Amendment repeal should be a unanimous no-brainer. I still don't know how the Constitution prevents it, considering lots of states were created out of federal land.
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Jan 8, 2019 21:49
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I know DC statehood is mostly being pushed to help balance the senate map, but from a pure enfranchisement standpoint I think offering all of the DC territory outside of the mall to Maryland or Virginia is a better option Puerto Rico should absolutely be a state though even setting the senate aside
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Jan 8, 2019 21:55
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I like DC statehood conceptually, but there are some really massive infra issues involved with turning it into a state, and I'm worried from the reported elements that this is more like red meat than a remote way of addressing any of those issues. I know, I know, DOA in senate, show bill fire up base, etc, but if they want to eventually actually do it, they need to have been planning how to do things like deal with the federal oversight and infra and transport funding and power and sewage and reorganization of representation for a couple decades. It's not just the organization, it's also that all of the city's infrastructure is already in a poor state and pretty badly mismanaged. DC's a mess, heavily intertwined with and in horrid resource conflicts with its neighbors (e.g. in the 80s, DC had problems with Delaware having leverage over its waste disposal contracts). It's got basically every kind of political and governance issue you can think of. The tensions of being the seat of the federal government also are going to get worse, not better (a set of problems that might be best addressed by looking abroad for how other countries handle it).cheetah7071 posted:I know DC statehood is mostly being pushed to help balance the senate map, but from a pure enfranchisement standpoint I think offering all of the DC territory outside of the mall to Maryland or Virginia is a better option Yeah I've been thinking about this too. It's not clear to me that it would be acceptable to DC residents, and they may be right in their suspicion of how it would shake out for them. And there's still the powerbalance between the feds and the state there. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 21:56
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cheetah7071 posted:I know DC statehood is mostly being pushed to help balance the senate map, but from a pure enfranchisement standpoint I think offering all of the DC territory outside of the mall to Maryland or Virginia is a better option They should probably both be states, but the case for making D.C. a state is huge. D.C. just overwhelmingly (85+%) voted to become a state in 2016. Puerto Rico is murkier. Statehood probably has close to majority support, but it isn't as definitive as D.C. Plus, D.C. is in the mainland US and subject to federal income taxes and laws in ways that Puerto Rico isn't. It is pretty bonkers that you can drive down the freeway in the United States of America and no longer be in a state.
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Jan 8, 2019 21:59
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Discendo Vox posted:I like DC statehood conceptually, but there are some really massive infra issues involved with turning it into a state, and I'm worried from the reported elements that this is more like red meat than a remote way of addressing any of those issues. I know, I know, DOA in senate, show bill fire up base, etc, but if they want to eventually actually do it, they need to have been planning how to do things like deal with the federal oversight and infra and transport funding and sewage and reorganization of representation for a couple decades. DC's a mess, heavily intertwined with and in horrid resource conflicts with its neighbors. It's got basically every kind of political and governance issue you can think of. The tensions of being the seat of the federal government also are going to get worse, not better (a set of problems that might be best addressed by looking abroad for how other countries handle it). if you reduce DC down to just the federal buildings you could presumably give all administration rights back to the House and run everything through there and since it would have 0 residents it wouldnt have any voters in presidential elections and thus no electoral votes. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They should probably both be states, but the case for making D.C. a state is huge. imo the resolution of the puerto rico murkiness should be a referendum with only 2 options: statehood or independence. if the pro-status quo people try to screw it up, announce that the federal government will take the results as binding and will not entertain continued existence as a territory. and then do the same for the other us territories.
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Jan 8, 2019 22:00
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Discendo Vox posted:I like DC statehood conceptually, but there are some really massive infra issues involved with turning it into a state, and I'm worried from the reported elements that this is more like red meat than a remote way of addressing any of those issues. I know, I know, DOA in senate, show bill fire up base, etc, but if they want to eventually actually do it, they need to have been planning how to do things like deal with the federal oversight and infra and transport funding and power and sewage and reorganization of representation for a couple decades. It's not just the organization, it's also that all of the city's infrastructure is already in a poor state and pretty badly mismanaged. DC's a mess, heavily intertwined with and in horrid resource conflicts with its neighbors (e.g. in the 80s, DC had problems with Delaware having leverage over its waste disposal contracts). It's got basically every kind of political and governance issue you can think of. The tensions of being the seat of the federal government also are going to get worse, not better (a set of problems that might be best addressed by looking abroad for how other countries handle it). yeah, one of the reasons WMATA is so hosed up is that in order to get anything done the state of virginia, the state of maryland, the district of columbia, and congress have to input on funding issues and strategic plans. imagine if you had to ask congress to expand a subway line in your city. my god
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Jan 8, 2019 22:01
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luxury handset posted:yeah, one of the reasons WMATA is so hosed up is that in order to get anything done the state of virginia, the state of maryland, the district of columbia, and congress have to input on funding issues and strategic plans. imagine if you had to ask congress to expand a subway line in your city. my god wmata finally got dedicated funding in 2018 despite existing since the 70s. it's impossible to plan for anything when you have no clue how to project your revenue from year to year since a state or congress could yank it without warning. wmata also is horribly hosed up from a management and workforce standpoint but hopefully giving consistent funding starts letting them actually fix things. i remember when atc was supposed to come back in 2013. it's 2019 and there's still no automated train control.
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Jan 8, 2019 22:03
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PR almost certainly has majority statehood support in reality. Without dredging up my effortpost on the history and parties involved, the anti-statehood party withdrew from the most recent referenda because they knew they would lose. That said, PR's been neglected and abused so long that we're going to have to be aware that it's going to be a huge federal money pit for a generation, to say nothing of corruption problems.axeil posted:if you reduce DC down to just the federal buildings you could presumably give all administration rights back to the House and run everything through there and since it would have 0 residents it wouldnt have any voters in presidential elections and thus no electoral votes. The administrative issues get really complex and it's not clear how conflicts with the newly emancipate state would shake out. luxury handset posted:yeah, one of the reasons WMATA is so hosed up is that in order to get anything done the state of virginia, the state of maryland, the district of columbia, and congress have to input on funding issues and strategic plans. imagine if you had to ask congress to expand a subway line in your city. my god This exactly, WMATA's a great example of that. Also imagine the same issues for all the many, many reconstruction projects even just the capitol complex needs.
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Jan 8, 2019 22:05
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They should probably both be states, but the case for making D.C. a state is huge. I mean it just feels weird to have a state whose borders are smaller than a single metro area. The people living there should absolutely be in a state though and if there's something I'm missing about why merging it into one of the adjacent states is a bad idea then I'm happy to be wrong Peurto Rico is just a weird edge case in general that probably should have become a state at the same time as Hawaii and Alaska but now we've had close to 60 years with 50 stars on the flag and resistance to change is high
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Jan 8, 2019 22:08
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Discendo Vox posted:PR almost certainly has majority statehood support in reality. Without dredging up my effortpost on the history and parties involved, the anti-statehood party withdrew from the most recent referenda because they knew they would lose. That said, PR's been neglected and abused so long that we're going to have to be aware that it's going to be a huge federal money pit for a generation, to say nothing of corruption problems. are we talking money pit like what mississippi/other poorer states need, german reunification or hypothetical korean reunification?
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Jan 8, 2019 22:08
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I think from an execution standpoint, merging DC into MD would be easier than statehood in some respects (MD's state governance has some elements that would make it smoother legally). I'm not sure MD, whose powerbrokers would principally view DC as a huge resource sink and liability source, or DC, whose african-american residents are used to being horribly kicked around and abused by their neighbors, would want that outcome.
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Jan 8, 2019 22:11
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If we're going to bother giving DC and/or Puerto Rico statehood, let's not be idiots. We should formally incorporate all the US Pacific and Caribbean territories and make them states (plus probably solve the Senate representation dilemma) if we have the political will to add stars to the flag at all.
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Jan 8, 2019 22:14
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Quorum posted:So for any of you who are into large history datasets, Virginia's House of Delegates has put together a database of every person who has served in the lower house of Virginia's legislature since its first incarnation in 1619. We've been hearing a lot about the first Assembly, since this year is its 400th anniversary and the House of Delegates traces itself directly to that meeting. Fun fact: 1,237 white men named John have served in the House of Burgesses/Delegates, while only 91 women period have done so. (But one of them is Danica Roem, so that's cool. Thats way more women named John than I would have expected e: On a reread my stupid joke doesnt even work because you said 'period'
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Jan 8, 2019 22:15
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cheetah7071 posted:I know DC statehood is mostly being pushed to help balance the senate map, but from a pure enfranchisement standpoint I think offering all of the DC territory outside of the mall to Maryland or Virginia is a better option It would practically need to be Maryland; Virginia already got back its bit of the District in the 1800s, and it now forms Arlington County and the City of Alexandria. That said, while retroannexation (the formal name for this procedure) is probably the most elegant solution, it probably wouldn't be popular with Washingtonians or with Maryland. Discendo Vox posted:I think from an execution standpoint, merging DC into MD would be easier than statehood in some respects (MD's state governance has some elements that would make it smoother legally). I'm not sure MD, whose powerbrokers would principally view DC as a huge resource sink and liability source, or DC, whose african-american residents are used to being horribly kicked around and abused by their neighbors, would want that outcome.  Beaten!But the local/state/federal governmental snafu in the DMV is absolutely nuts and spending too much time contemplating it will probably send you gibbering mad from all the acronyms, which of course makes it deeply fascinating.
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Jan 8, 2019 22:19
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Quorum posted:It would practically need to be Maryland; Virginia already got back its bit of the District in the 1800s, and it now forms Arlington County and the City of Alexandria. That said, while retroannexation (the formal name for this procedure) is probably the most elegant solution, it probably wouldn't be popular with Washingtonians or with Maryland. as an arlingtonian, i'd gladly join DC for the legal  , since i'll be old and grey before it happens in va
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Jan 8, 2019 22:21
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axeil posted:are we talking money pit like what mississippi/other poorer states need, german reunification or hypothetical korean reunification? the former, puerto rico is poor. it has the same problem mississippi has, in that it's just too easy to leave mississippi for brighter places with better prospects - this is why there are more people of puerto rican heritage living on the mainland than puerto rico. so the poverty is reinforced because anyone of means simply moves somewhere better, and many of those who are left are those who can't afford to leave. i can't speak to the government debt issue but from an income standpoint the reason many gulf coast states are costly to the federal government is mostly just deep, deep poverty, and this is also true for puerto rico
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Jan 8, 2019 22:21
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axeil posted:are we talking money pit like what mississippi/other poorer states need, german reunification or hypothetical korean reunification? Worse than German, much better than Korean (factoring in transport costs). PR infrastructure challenges are made worse by having to get things to the island, several generations of brain drain and systemic substance abuse issues, severe (not as bad as other US island holdings, but still very bad) corruption and crime, and principally the underlying infrastructure ethos of PR. PR policymakers, the honest ones, have had to beg every single US congressional session to be included in allocations for things like education and street systems. Imagine not knowing if highway repairs would happen year to year, for example. The same situation was true for aid projects. None of that funding was ever guaranteed, so even when they got it, solutions and projects were piecemeal and unstable, and there was no long term plan, because there could be no long term stable funding. The infra even before the hurricanes had limited central planning and resilience involved. Almost everything would have to be torn down and rebuilt almost from scratch to be up to federal standards that PR has been exempted from. All of this sets aside the fact that the very, very worst kind of venture capital people are coming to PR right now to try to turn it into a tax haven armed compound libertarian's paradise. I'm not sure I can share some of the high-level conversations I was party to while doing aid work there, but they're past dystopian. I don't know how to factor in the politics there. (soucing: I'm the whitest of mainland crackers, but a relative worked in high-level planning in the PR government during the 80s and I have close family ties to it. I very much Have Stories.) Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 22:22
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cheetah7071 posted:I mean it just feels weird to have a state whose borders are smaller than a single metro area. The people living there should absolutely be in a state though and if there's something I'm missing about why merging it into one of the adjacent states is a bad idea then I'm happy to be wrong Plenty of metro areas cross state borders though, and DC metro crossing state borders is already the case now so it can't be worse (actually it'd be better because Congress doesn't have to agree to every little thing so that's one less complication). We could go on an anti-multistate-metro crusade and annex parts of New Jersey and Connecticut to New York, and tell Kansas City to pick a state already, but if we're not going to do that then why care about it here. Even if you retrocessioned the current district to Maryland, Washington metro would still cross into Virginia and West Virginia anyway. But yeah the argument for making it a state is mainly political, we need more urban states to balance the empty rural states in the senate, but really it should be up to the people of DC if they don't want to be governed by the state of Maryland why shouldn't they have that right of self-determination? And Maryland would have to agree, do they even want it?
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Jan 8, 2019 22:59
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VitalSigns posted:Plenty of metro areas cross state borders though, and DC metro crossing state borders is already the case now so it can't be worse (actually it'd be better because Congress doesn't have to agree to every little thing so that's one less complication) with the sole exception of DC, every city that crosses a state boundary has some other state to advocate for it. so you never end up in a situation where a city is trying to sit down at the negotiating table with other states without some state level government authority behind it in the us city powers are defined by the states, and the district of columbia's authority is derived from congress itself which is a pretty lovely situation to be in since congress kinda doesn't care as an example, there's the tri-state water dispute - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-state_water_dispute after ww2, the army corps of engineers built a dam and created a lake along the chattahoochee river in north georgia. as the city of atlanta grew, it started consuming more water from the lake, and the lake is the main source of drinking water for millions of people. however, industries downriver also need this water, and so a regular amount of flow must be maintained - particularly the oyster farmers of apalachicola bay, whose oysters depend on a mix of fresh and salt water without the state of georgia to advocate on atlanta's behalf, the city would have to try to argue in federal court as its own district against claims made by neighboring states and probably wouldn't have much credibility when making arguments related to state level resource contributions and obligations from federal agencies like the army corps of engineers DC being an unwanted stepchild of a city is a liability when it comes to how DC can negotiate with other states containing the washington metro area and possible regional planning efforts
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Jan 8, 2019 23:46
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I'm not sure D.C. statehood is necessarily a great idea but it should definitely have congressional representation. Which state already got most of its land back from DC, is it Virginia or Maryland? Edit: thread didn’t refresh for me, sorry my reply is no longer relevant.
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Jan 8, 2019 23:59
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Doing a quick check it sounds like any law that makes most of DC its own state or part of Maryland, but excises a small region around the white house and capitol to remain a federal district, would give that tiny district three electors in presidential elections as per the 23rd amendment. Cleaning up that situation would require a constitutional amendment I assume
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Jan 9, 2019 00:05
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cheetah7071 posted:I mean it just feels weird to have a state whose borders are smaller than a single metro area. Rhode Island is already all but a city-state in name (actually it almost is in name anyway, "Rhode Island and Providence Plantations" lol).
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Jan 9, 2019 00:10
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cheetah7071 posted:Doing a quick check it sounds like any law that makes most of DC its own state or part of Maryland, but excises a small region around the white house and capitol to remain a federal district, would give that tiny district three electors in presidential elections as per the 23rd amendment. Cleaning up that situation would require a constitutional amendment I assume Yes, you'd need to repeal the 23rd. In the meantime, the president and Congress can just pick symbolic electors, since the Constitution doesn't mandate that you have to have a popular vote for them. Lycus fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Jan 9, 2019 |
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Jan 9, 2019 01:27
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Jennifer Boysko WON the 33rd VA Senate District! They called it real quick which means it must have been a slaughter lol
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Jan 9, 2019 02:37
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luxury handset posted:with the sole exception of DC, every city that crosses a state boundary has some other state to advocate for it. so you never end up in a situation where a city is trying to sit down at the negotiating table with other states without some state level government authority behind it Sure but the proposal is to make DC a state which will then have state government authority behind it so doesn't that solve this issue? VV Ah ok, well it was an interesting post, thank you for going in depth VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Jan 9, 2019 |
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Jan 9, 2019 02:44
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VitalSigns posted:Sure but the proposal is to make DC a state which will then have state government authority behind it so doesn't that solve this issue? it does, i was just detailing an aside in your post as to why it's uniquely bad for the washington metro to exist in a 'stateless' condition
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Jan 9, 2019 02:47
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Lycus posted:Yes, you'd need to repeal the 23rd. In the meantime, the president and Congress can just pick symbolic electors, since the Constitution doesn't mandate that you have to have a popular vote for them. Pass a law giving those electoral votes to the winner of the nationwide popular vote
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Jan 9, 2019 02:49
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friendbot2000 posted:Jennifer Boysko WON the 33rd VA Senate District! They called it real quick which means it must have been a slaughter lol https://twitter.com/JMilesColeman/status/1082809000486494213 40 point win is a slaughter, yeah.
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Jan 9, 2019 02:55
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It's local as all gently caress to Honolulu, but the results for one of our city council seats have not yet been certified. The city council here has nine members and is split evenly between pro and anti-mayoral factions. The two candidates, Ozawa and Waters, are separated by only 22 votes, and the winner would tip the balance of power (not between Democrats and Republicans in this case, but loyalists to the mayor). The current leader in the race (Ozawa) is more or less opposed to our mayor and his victory would give the anti-mayoral faction a majority. Ozawa was even set to become chairman of the council this week, but Waters filed a challenge in late November that is only now being taken up by the Hawaii Supreme Court. https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019...y-council-race/
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Jan 9, 2019 02:55
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VitalSigns posted:Even if you retrocessioned the current district to Maryland, Washington metro would still cross into Virginia and West Virginia anyway. You don’t know the lay of the land at all. West Virginia is no more a metro area of DC than Delaware is. Mind you, I know people who commute to the city from both places. It’s a 3+ hour commute. You know what we call them? Crazy people. In other news, Jennifer Boysko has won her special election in VA-SEN-33. The state senate remains at 51-49 going into the fall, and one retirement as mentioned up thread.
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Jan 9, 2019 03:31
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Your Boy Fancy posted:You don’t know the lay of the land at all. West Virginia is no more a metro area of DC than Delaware is. Guilty, I just went off the Wikipedia definition of the Washington Metro Area
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Jan 9, 2019 03:38
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axeil posted:https://twitter.com/JMilesColeman/status/1082809000486494213 Aight Goons, let's continue the slaughter into this year! I got a good feeling! I know Boysko was in deep blue territory, but a 40 point win? That is bloodshed of the highest order. BLOOD FOR THE BLOODGOD
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Jan 9, 2019 03:40
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VitalSigns posted:Guilty, I just went off the Wikipedia definition of the Washington Metro Area Happens. Like, in terms of media market, DC serves the WV panhandle, Berkeley Springs and Shepherdstown and Harpers Ferry, but that part of the universe identifies more with Pittsburgh culturally, from my experience. That said, I did manage to see a Manchin ad on the evening news, and I laughed and thought of everyone here.
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Jan 9, 2019 03:44
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I’m moving into my final destination in San Antonio right now and you can tell the political landscape is very different here. I saw Planned Parenthood protestors for the first time ever today.
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Jan 9, 2019 03:49
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im glad state senator-elect boysko is much more electorally and politically successful than brian boyko of goon lore past
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Jan 9, 2019 13:54
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