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Pener Kropoopkin posted:to distribute a necessarily reparative amount of resources and labor to the most dispossessed elements of society, that means some programs can't be universal because their scope needs to be narrow enough to aid the groups in need. even under the umbrella of an ostensibly universal program at the national level, you're going to need some particular programs to ensure justice for particular people. Part of the problem of communicating this comes from the fact that your audience may be intensely familiar with bad faith Democrat rhetoric like "UHC won't solve racism." This is kind of a stumbling block for everyone (thanks, Dems!) but on the more DSA side of it, lots of people basically saw a cynical concern trolling about racism used to torpedo the idea of transformative public services. The problem is that a lot of these people will over-react to someone sincerely pointing out that socialism will mean both programs everyone can avail themselves of for a dignified life and also program that make people whole along particular lines of oppression as if it's some sinister Clintonite plot to derail socialism.
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Jan 8, 2019 13:08
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Kobayashi posted:I appreciate all the comments so far and I'm dumb and probably wrong, but I don't really get this. 110 million people voted in the 2018 midterms, they can't all be bourgeoisie or petite bourgeoisie? capital will not surrender to electoral reform but electoral work has a place in building mass consciousness and working for wins that materially benefit the working class and undermine capital in different areas. it's misguided to think that we can elect our way to socialism but we need visible wins to show people that there is a different world possible (and when capital does what it can to undermine those wins, radicalize people). these wins can be a lot of different things but electoral work that gives socialists state power is also good.
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Jan 8, 2019 14:29
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electoralism has its limits ... but we probably haven't hit those limits yet
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Jan 8, 2019 14:34
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imo the failure of electoralism to create change is gonna be far more radicalizing so its important to engage in electoral politics, with the mentality that when it fails, it only further proves the need for more radical action
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Jan 8, 2019 14:36
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Serf posted:imo the failure of electoralism to create change is gonna be far more radicalizing yeah and also we just got a local prison abolitionist elected as a misdemeanor court judge and he's letting everyone out of jail and terminating everyone's probation lol
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Jan 8, 2019 14:38
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jarofpiss posted:yeah and also we just got a local prison abolitionist elected as a misdemeanor court judge and he's letting everyone out of jail and terminating everyone's probation lol gently caress yes dude
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Jan 8, 2019 14:40
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i hope DSA florida is aiming to get every person with a felony on their record registered to vote
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Jan 8, 2019 14:41
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jarofpiss posted:yeah and also we just got a local prison abolitionist elected as a misdemeanor court judge and he's letting everyone out of jail and terminating everyone's probation lol owns
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Jan 8, 2019 14:42
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electoralism reinscribes liberal notions of power and is thus counterproductive, we all have to start dying due to climate change or insurrection before anything will change
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Jan 8, 2019 14:54
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Glad we did the settlers discussion, now let's talk about coops, and how they alone are socialism 
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Jan 8, 2019 14:56
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coops are liberal because they eternalize the idea that non-centrally directed production is viable and are thus counter-revolutionary
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Jan 8, 2019 15:03
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Larry Parrish posted:decolonizing, to me, is pulling a pol pot on the middle manager sector of society, the people doing busy work and not any kind of useful bureaucratic or administrative function. by which I mean everyone in the suburbs is torn from their safe petit boug enclave and forced to work for a living Sorry to keep picking out your quotes, but again, I’m struggling to see how 110 million people can be categorized as “petite bourgeois.” My understanding of Marx (and cursory read of the manifesto) left me with the understanding that communism is supposedly inevitable because numerically, there just aren’t that many physical members of the bourgeois and petite bourgeois. This is why I asked for help with class analysis. It doesn’t compute to me that the third of the country that votes are all irredeemable liberals. Also, you’re describing what I understand to be the PMC, and I don’t know if that operates as a unified class or there are exploitable differences, if it also includes people in the cities doing the same empty tasks, etc. To come at it a different way, where’s the modern version of the manifesto that helps me make sense of types of wage labor invented in the 20th and 21st centuries, like the bullshit spreadsheet mines you describe?
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Jan 8, 2019 15:35
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The manifesto posted:The “dangerous class”, [lumpenproletariat] the social scum, that passively rotting mass thrown off by the lowest layers of the old society, may, here and there, be swept into the movement by a proletarian revolution; its conditions of life, however, prepare it far more for the part of a bribed tool of reactionary intrigue. Separately, I’ve heard this colloquially referred to as criminals and such, but this sounds like the chuds. Is that accurate or am I looking in the wrong direction?
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Jan 8, 2019 15:43
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people who sell their labor for a wage are proletariat, the lumpen subsist on more advanced social decay chuds are still proles despite how racist and lovely they are, for the most part your militia type gunfuckers are fascists/reactionary actors
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Jan 8, 2019 15:47
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What is “more advanced social decay” ?
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Jan 8, 2019 15:49
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crime, essentially. drug/human trafficking mostly. they have a parasitic relationship with the social ills created by capitalist society edit: i should clarify i don't mean individual sex workers when i say human trafficking, i mean the traffickers/pimps
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Jan 8, 2019 15:50
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smarxist posted:crime, essentially. drug/human trafficking mostly. they have a parasitic relationship with the social ills created by capitalist society this is why videogame devs don't unionise, they are lumpen
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Jan 8, 2019 15:52
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anime vendors
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Jan 8, 2019 16:00
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communism isn’t inevitable, remember when reading the manifesto, which is very good, that it’s also a call to action and a propaganda document - so it doesn’t have a lot of space for “maybe we will instead all die” and there arent hundreds of millions of petit bourgeois in america
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Jan 8, 2019 16:01
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jarofpiss posted:yeah and also we just got a local prison abolitionist elected as a misdemeanor court judge and he's letting everyone out of jail and terminating everyone's probation lol bynum? drat near killed em
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Jan 8, 2019 16:03
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anyway this thread is why you shouldnt read too much because god drat is a lot of theory just boring rear end nerds arguing over minutiae
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Jan 8, 2019 16:04
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R. Guyovich posted:bynum? drat near killed em
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Jan 8, 2019 16:15
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THS posted:anyway this thread is why you shouldnt read too much because god drat is a lot of theory just boring rear end nerds arguing over minutiae haha
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Jan 8, 2019 16:30
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iimhghay
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Jan 8, 2019 16:32
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i dont think people reading too many books is going to be a problem now or at any point in the future
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Jan 8, 2019 17:24
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double negative posted:i dont think people reading too many books is going to be a problem now or at any point in the future socrates is cursing you from beyond the grave
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Jan 8, 2019 18:43
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THS posted:anyway this thread is why you shouldnt read too much because god drat is a lot of theory just boring rear end nerds arguing over minutiae mao was right
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Jan 8, 2019 18:56
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THS posted:communism isn’t inevitable, Islamic Communism however
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Jan 8, 2019 19:23
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Dreddout posted:Islamic Communism however Is dead and buried
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Jan 8, 2019 19:42
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these last few pages have convinced me to read settlers for the arcane trolling secrets contained within
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Jan 8, 2019 19:48
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MizPiz posted:Is dead and buried *flibps de switch*
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Jan 8, 2019 20:02
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apropos to nothing posted:I will never read Settlers coward
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Jan 8, 2019 20:12
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Jan 8, 2019 22:59
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lol
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Jan 8, 2019 23:00
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yeeee
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Jan 8, 2019 23:04
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this is what jacobinmag actually believes
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Jan 8, 2019 23:37
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqO7lu94Ix4 is there socialist country/western music Graphic fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jan 9, 2019 |
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Jan 9, 2019 03:33
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Yea some I hated that fuckin movie though lol For a socialist Western movie check out The Great Silence
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Jan 9, 2019 03:40
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Graphic posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqO7lu94Ix4 They're mostly in the form of union/IWW folk songs, which is what you'd need to search to find them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaXHUI6Gl1Q
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Jan 9, 2019 03:41
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Kobayashi posted:Sorry to keep picking out your quotes, but again, I’m struggling to see how 110 million people can be categorized as “petite bourgeois.” My understanding of Marx (and cursory read of the manifesto) left me with the understanding that communism is supposedly inevitable because numerically, there just aren’t that many physical members of the bourgeois and petite bourgeois. This is why I asked for help with class analysis. It doesn’t compute to me that the third of the country that votes are all irredeemable liberals. im one of the few posters on this forum who's legitimately below the poverty line and have been most of my life so, to me, 110 million people really do look like they're reclining above me in an ivory tower of priviledge, even if that tower is really just a two story house compared to the true bougioise. Anyway people like me dont get the bullshit jobs because we're uncouth proles. And to me a bullshit job is anything that isn't production or some kind of logistics for the production/the people doing it. which means a gigantic chunk of jobs outside of healthcare that aren't minimum wage are, in my opinion, supernumerary and an example of the waste of capitalism and the excess of the ruling class.
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Jan 9, 2019 04:06
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