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The Merkinman posted:Like most Americans, I don't know how out government works. Can someone explain why the disagreement on the wall caused a shutdown? Plenty of other bills and laws (don't?) pass with a mixed bag of yay/nay and yet the government stays open. To keep the government running, Congress has to pass a budget bill every year. If it fails to pass a budget, then the government is literally not allowed to spend money anymore, so it shuts down. Many other countries have a provision to continue funding at the previous year's levels or something in a situation like this, but the US doesn't - everything just grinds to a halt if Congress doesn't pass a budget. American politics also has a long tradition of taking controversial and heavily partisan things and turning them into amendments to popular or important bills. If the opposition has the numbers to block a bill but not an amendment, they're then put in the uncomfortable situation of having to vote against something good because it's had a bunch of bad provisions tacked on. Because the budget is essentially a must-pass item, it's been a particularly popular target for those kinds of games of legislative chicken in recent years. Since the government shuts down if the bill doesn't get passed, it's an excellent way for one side to put pressure on the other, holding the workings of government hostage unless they get their way.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:25
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Your Taint posted:Not to be combative, but can you name a time where it did work? Oh and also! While Reconstruction was overall abandoned, the “Sea Island Experiment” was pretty successful by my metric, and provided black political leaders and education fueled by redistributing cotton plantations for a full fifty years after the Civil War.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:26
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Ripoff posted:One person with one of those gas-powered concrete cutters with a steel grinding disc attached can make that wall absolutely useless. Give a person 2-3 hours a night at random points along the wall and they could have huge holes cut in the fucker to the point it’d cost millions to constantly find and repair the damages. Well we could use modern measures like drones and electronic detection to look out for people doing things in the border- oh wait
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Jan 10, 2019 15:26
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Data Graham posted:In my younger years whenever I read a comment like this I would typically smirk and be like "So what you're saying is communism would work if all people were angels, but then if people were angels any system would work". As though to justify never making any attempt to make anything better than what we have. Anything is easily subverted when the concentrated power of capital is capable and motivated to do so. Go read the histories of some of the communist movements in smaller countries, I think its pretty clear that its not the "buy-in" that killed it, its usually the CIA (or whatever instrument happens to be used).
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Jan 10, 2019 15:27
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Crow Jane posted:Why is Trump in quotation marks? Is that not actually his name? Is he a clone? Three toddlers in an overcoat? Is it an ironic Trump?! Is the wink implied?!
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Jan 10, 2019 15:29
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Ogmius815 posted:They are funded through September. Ah, okay. I still think this weekend will be the breaking point. People not getting paid tends to do Very Bad Things.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:30
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sw0cb posted:Anything is easily subverted when the concentrated power of capital is capable and motivated to do so. Go read the histories of some of the communist movements in smaller countries, I think its pretty clear that its not the "buy-in" that killed it, its usually the CIA (or whatever instrument happens to be used). Pretty much, I'm not gonna sit here and say there weren't fundamental flaws in the USSR/Maoist China/etc governments but boy howdy does 'outside government aligns with the wealthy and powerful to tip the scales against any attempt to bring dignity to the workers' sure tip the scales regardless of flaws!
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Jan 10, 2019 15:31
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What if we built just 10 feet of wall and then we put it on a little ATV drone and it could just drive to wherever people are crossing and get in their way.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:32
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People don't get their paychecks tomorrow and poo poo will go downhill, but I think the beginning of February, when rent and utilities are typically due, is when you're really going to see some serious poo poo.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:32
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The Super-Id posted:What if we built just 10 feet of wall and then we put it on a little ATV drone and it could just drive to wherever people are crossing and get in their way. To steal a joke from Colbert, I think you just invented Pong
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Jan 10, 2019 15:33
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The Super-Id posted:What if we built just 10 feet of wall and then we put it on a little ATV drone and it could just drive to wherever people are crossing and get in their way. What if we just put signs along the border that said "Now entering Mexico, Welcome to Mexico" and then everyone would be confused and think they were already in America and going the wrong way
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Jan 10, 2019 15:34
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Sir Lemming posted:To steal a joke from Colbert, I think you just invented Pong Humanitarian crisis along border grows as Trump refuses to honor quarters left on arcade machine reserving spots for other players.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:36
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Can't we just dig a moat? When they go high we go low.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:37
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sw0cb posted:Anything is easily subverted when the concentrated power of capital is capable and motivated to do so. Go read the histories of some of the communist movements in smaller countries, I think its pretty clear that its not the "buy-in" that killed it, its usually the CIA (or whatever instrument happens to be used). I'm sure you're right, but now there's the additional twist that communism has been "tried and failed" in the minds of the whole world, especially America. You can't run a historical experiment in a vacuum, particularly twice, and now Earth is poisoned by its history where now "everybody knows" communism is doomed to fail. Whether it was because of the CIA or because there are ultimately too many selfish sociopaths in the world is kind of moot if the whole thing is predicated on the idea that people will voluntarily choose to move in that direction because they've decided it's a good idea to overthrow capital (which in today's world means picturing mobs of people marching angrily toward the Apple/Google/Facebook campuses and haha lol).
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Jan 10, 2019 15:38
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Data Graham posted:I'm sure you're right, but now there's the additional twist that communism has been "tried and failed" in the minds of the whole world, especially America. You can't run a historical experiment in a vacuum, particularly twice, and now Earth is poisoned by its history where now "everybody knows" communism is doomed to fail. Whether it was because of the CIA or because there are ultimately too many selfish sociopaths in the world is kind of moot if the whole thing is predicated on the idea that people will voluntarily choose to move in that direction because they've decided it's a good idea to overthrow capital (which in today's world means picturing mobs of people marching angrily toward the Apple/Google/Facebook campuses and haha lol). "communism" may not work in the popular mindset but "socialism" sure as hell does. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia And from the viewpoint of those under 45 or so, capitalism is also tried and failed.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:39
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True, I'm encouraged by the fact that young people don't treat "socialism" as a swear word anymore. "Communism" will take a lot longer to rehabilitate.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:41
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Krispy Wafer posted:Can't we just dig a moat? When they go high we go low. There’s already a moat there!
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Jan 10, 2019 15:43
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AlBorlantern Corps posted:People don't get their paychecks tomorrow and poo poo will go downhill, but I think the beginning of February, when rent and utilities are typically due, is when you're really going to see some serious poo poo. Agreed. Once people start getting eviction notices, poo poo’s going to roll downhill fast. Ghost Leviathan posted:Every society is three missed meals away from revolution, right? Three missed paychecks sound pretty close. Meant to quote you earlier but yeah, I fully believe that the mental duress from missing 3 paychecks in a row is going to cause the people who were doing their jobs because they believed in them to quit outright. Which is sad, because the people who are still there are the ones who obviously want to do this and are probably the best people for the job, but republicans are driving them out of the government. If you think the US is corrupt now, wait until desperation sets in and someone realizes they can use their sign-off power to get bribes. You’ll see oil drilling smack dab in the middle of national parks and Native American reservations because the most insane permit request will come with a plastic grocery bag of cash and no questions asked.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:44
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haveblue posted:The government is allowed to spend money because a law is passed containing a big list of things that money is allowed to be spent on and the amounts permitted to be spent for that fiscal year. This has to be done every year and it has to pass the House*, pass the Senate, and get signed by the President. The current President and the current House leadership disagree over what items should be on the list (specifically whether or not one of the items should be "big beautiful border wall: $5 billion") so they haven't been able to come up with a bill acceptable to all 3 involved parties. While this standoff continued a previous budget bill passed last year expired so certain items got removed from the spending list. Those departments were then required to stop work and stop paying their employees. This situation will continue until either the house, senate, and president sign a bill or the house and senate do a veto override which does not require the president's signature. it should be noted that Congress did actually get around the tedium of doing this once the complexity of the budget grew. they wrote a budget/fiscal fast track procedure into law with the understanding that it would make minor changes to the previous years and if anyone wanted larger changes, they'd present it through normal procedures this is why reconciliation exists
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Jan 10, 2019 15:44
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Jan 10, 2019 15:45
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AlBorlantern Corps posted:People don't get their paychecks tomorrow and poo poo will go downhill, but I think the beginning of February, when rent and utilities are typically due, is when you're really going to see some serious poo poo. I don’t really buy into this thought that ‘well, if he declares the emergency he will get his wall’. It’s not that simple. The border fence Bush wanted is still being litigated in court. I think there is a higher likelihood that Trump is dead and we have a Dem president who cancels the project before it ever goes anywhere since it will be tied up in loads of legal challenges.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:45
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Lumpy posted:South Texas, 2020: “Honey, after we go check on our lawsuit fighting th Big Guv’mints attempts to take our land, we need to go vote. Trump! Trump! Trump!” "I never thought the leopards would eat *my face*!" Says man whose face was eaten by and is currently being eaten by a leopard.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:46
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It's also important to note that the whole Communism can't work because outside factors can kind of be flipped around against capitalism too. Capitalism only looks stable to people because its cooking the books so to speak. It only looks stable because capitalist powers are always plundering the rest of the globe.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:47
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And they all are Cooley alumni.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:47
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https://twitter.com/ylanmui/status/1083373905136574464 He's running.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:47
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USPOL Winter: i probably will do it, maybe definitely
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Jan 10, 2019 15:50
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Guess he will announce that tonight.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:50
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He's going to look even stupider if he waits til things get bad and then unilaterally ends the shutdown by declaring an emergency and nothing happens because of it.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:50
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I look forward to the next Democratic President declaring national emergencies over health care and global warming. If Trump opens the door, Democrats would be fools not to take full advantage.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:51
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Data Graham posted:True, I'm encouraged by the fact that young people don't treat "socialism" as a swear word anymore. People under 40 are the first generation who didn't spend their formative years having Red Scare bullshit screamed into their faces 24/7 by the entirety of mainstream culture.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:51
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AlBorlantern Corps posted:Well we could use modern measures like drones and electronic detection to look out for people doing things in the border- oh wait Hell, for the money they want to spend on this stupid loving wall, you could have a make-work project and hire a bunch of low-time commercial pilots in Cessnas to fly back and forth over the border looking for shenanigans.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:51
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alpha_destroy posted:It's also important to note that the whole Communism can't work because outside factors can kind of be flipped around against capitalism too. Capitalism only looks stable to people because its cooking the books so to speak. It only looks stable because capitalist powers are always plundering the rest of the globe. And because it's the status quo, and people think "Well I might not be rich, but I know if anyone says they want to raise my taxes 5 cents to pay for a new bridge it means they want bread lines because that is obviously the ideal end goal of communism" *flips on Dancing With the Stars* Revolutions might not require a populace that is literally starving in order to get off the ground, but we've got a powerful incentive to believe that whatever we're used to is the best of all possible worlds and changing anything will make us lose what little we have. e: it sounds like I'm ignoring your point, I don't mean to be, trying to add on to it. I have a bad habit of reading like the first sentence of anything and deciding that's what I want to respond to 
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Jan 10, 2019 15:52
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Fritz Coldcockin posted:I look forward to the next Democratic President declaring national emergencies over health care and global warming. If Trump opens the door, Democrats would be fools not to take full advantage. I look forward to the inevitable suit and injunction on the order declaring an emergency.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:52
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Sweevo posted:People under 40 are the first generation who didn't spend their formative years having Red Scare bullshit screamed into their faces 24/7 by the entirety of mainstream culture. Also a massive economic crisis makes all the "capitalism is amazing" rhetoric sound like the bullshit it is.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:52
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Data Graham posted:True, I'm encouraged by the fact that young people don't treat "socialism" as a swear word anymore. Yeah. Thing is it's ultimately a bit of a semantic issue more than a substantive one. The ideas are out there and they're going to keep coming back under different names.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:52
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He deals in only absolutes, except when he doesn't Also, this is basically AOC's theme song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmjxK0ngWHc
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Jan 10, 2019 15:53
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Normal Timeline: Prez: I'm declaring a national emergency to bypass normal means to get this done. Here are my reasons for review and I believe I have sufficient cause for this. Congress: Hmm, okay, we'll allow it. Trump's imagined timeline Trump: NATIONAL EMERGENCY, BUILD ME A MOTHERFUCKING WALL! Everyone: SIR YES SIR! *Drops everything, glorious wall is a reality overnight*
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Jan 10, 2019 15:53
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FlamingLiberal posted:Some people have started quitting in the lower paying jobs like TSA, but I would imagine that if this goes on another week or two it will be more than just screeners. If he declares there emergency he can PRETEND he is getting his wall and tell voters that it won't continue if he doesn't win 2020 as he and he alone is doing it
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Jan 10, 2019 15:54
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these people having fits over socialism (or hell just social democracy) is pretty rich considering capitalism collapsed barely over a decade ago and required state intervention to avert armageddon.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:55
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Kammat posted:... You left out the bit where everyone gets stiffed on the bill.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:55
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