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A Typical Goon posted:https://twitter.com/jessamcleanndp/status/1083048318224269316?s=21 Okay great so are we expected to seize GM's assets and basically cancel ever having a private company set foot in Canada ever again? Or ban all publicly traded companies from Canada?
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Jan 10, 2019 19:58
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Wilhelm posted:Okay great so are we expected to seize GM's assets and basically cancel ever having a private company set foot in Canada ever again? Or ban all publicly traded companies from Canada? These god drat jaguars won't stop eating my face.
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Jan 10, 2019 20:03
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Wilhelm posted:Okay great so are we expected to seize GM's assets and basically cancel ever having a private company set foot in Canada ever again? Or ban all publicly traded companies from Canada? that sounds great, I think we should start with the telecoms to prevent outside communication on our seizures.
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Jan 10, 2019 20:07
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Wilhelm posted:Okay great so are we expected to seize GM's assets and basically cancel ever having a private company set foot in Canada ever again? Or ban all publicly traded companies from Canada? Careful you don't slip on that slope of yours.
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Jan 10, 2019 20:10
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Wilhelm posted:Okay great so are we expected to seize GM's assets and basically cancel ever having a private company set foot in Canada ever again? Or ban all publicly traded companies from Canada? Sounds like a fantastic long term goal actually.
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Jan 10, 2019 20:17
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I'm not sure if the only way to interpret that statement is "nationalize all industries now". It could just as easily be meant as "we shouldn't expect companies to play nice or fair, so we need to regulate them for the good of everyone" "Change the game" can mean "add a house rule" or it can mean "flip the table and play something completely different".
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Jan 10, 2019 20:28
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Cerepol posted:that sounds great, I think we should start with the telecoms to prevent outside communication on our seizures. I mean I get what you're getting at but if there was ever an example of an industry in Canada where private ownership is helping no one but a bunch of executives it's telecom.
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Jan 10, 2019 20:29
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enki42 posted:I mean I get what you're getting at but if there was ever an example of an industry in Canada where private ownership is helping no one but a bunch of executives it's telecom. 
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Jan 10, 2019 20:30
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And what kind of regulation would stop a private company from deciding to close its business and move elsewhere? We can't make them employ us.
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Jan 10, 2019 20:31
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Yeah, I deserved that one.
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Jan 10, 2019 20:31
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flakeloaf posted:And what kind of regulation would stop a private company from deciding to close its business and move elsewhere? We can't make them employ us. Plenty of companies still exist in Canada despite us having 40 hour work weeks, minimum wages, legally mandated vacations and a bunch of other things. There's probably a line somewhere but I don't think we're anywhere near passing it. Companies exist in Scandinavia.
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Jan 10, 2019 20:34
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flakeloaf posted:And what kind of regulation would stop a private company from deciding to close its business and move elsewhere? We can't make them employ us. "you can either be thankful for being allowed to exploit our productive educated workforce and do business in a country with rule of law that primarily benefits the interests of capital, or you can foreit the means of production and we'll take over if that isn't good enough for you"
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Jan 10, 2019 20:34
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enki42 posted:Plenty of companies still exist in Canada despite us having 40 hour work weeks, minimum wages, legally mandated vacations and a bunch of other things. And if they decided to stop existing, what would people expect the government to do? Where was this argument (from the workers, not from you) when Target shut down?
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Jan 10, 2019 20:38
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I'm not sure what your argument is? Governments pass laws to protect workers. That has some macro effects on the economy, but they're not always or even usually negative. Target shut down because it was a horribly botched launch that had massive inventory problems and so no one was going there. I think Target dying and allowing smaller stores that can actually function well to exist is better than Canada nationalizing Target and keeping it lumbering along. If the government's goal is to make sure a factory never closes ever no matter what that's a good way to have a super lovely inefficient economy.
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Jan 10, 2019 20:47
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enki42 posted:I'm not sure what your argument is? That the workers, while justifiably upset that their jobs have poofed, shouldn't expect to gain anything by complaining to the government about it as if there were something they could do to make GM do business in a certain way.
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Jan 10, 2019 20:58
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Baronjutter posted:"you can either be thankful for being allowed to exploit our productive educated workforce and do business in a country with rule of law that primarily benefits the interests of capital, or you can foreit the means of production and we'll take over if that isn't good enough for you" lmao so hey come to our country but as soon as you make a business decision that's politically unpopular we can unilaterally seize all of your assets? ah yes this will make canada a shining utopia (ps - scandinavian countries also cannot and do not do this)
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Jan 10, 2019 21:07
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Remember less than ten years ago when the government gave GM a three billion dollar loan to stop them from getting wiped out by the economic crash? Also remember how the union specifically said it was dumb of the government to sell off all the shares a few years later since the future of GM would have serious implications for the regional economy?
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Jan 10, 2019 21:09
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Wilhelm posted:lmao so hey come to our country but as soon as you make a business decision that's politically unpopular we can unilaterally seize all of your assets? ah yes this will make canada a shining utopia (ps - scandinavian countries also cannot and do not do this) Nationalizing doesn’t necessarily mean seizing assets, normally the process involves the government purchasing the assets. It makes sense to have private corporations making consumer goods and such in your country while nationalizing industries that are essential for the country (food production, building supplies) and those that are parasitic (finance).
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Jan 10, 2019 21:17
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Wilhelm posted:lmao so hey come to our country but as soon as you make a business decision that's politically unpopular we can unilaterally seize all of your assets? ah yes this will make canada a shining utopia (ps - scandinavian countries also cannot and do not do this) I love how Canadians literally cannot even conceive of the idea that we would use our own resources to fund investments into our own development. Nah, we need all our own money to be going into new granite counter tops for our suburban McMansions, just let people in other countries bankroll our infrastructure. Sure it means we benefit way less than if we had financed the investments domestically and kept them under our control, but we simply cannot afford the upfront costs you see. We cannot expect Canadian households to redirect some of the resources they consume into investments, not when we're such an impoverished, under educated and capital poor country. Leave that to prosperous middle class societies like... *checks notes* China. I mean yes, to be clear, it's inevitable a country with our geography, resource endowment and population would probably have some direct investment but the fact you literally do not distinguish between economic development and foreign investment says a lot about what a joke of a country we really are. We're so lazy, myopic and greedy we would rather make a quick buck right now than actually build a proper balanced and prosperous society for the next generation.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:30
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Hello wilhelm, have you considered that private business actually makes no sense besides greed. Thank you.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:38
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enki42 posted:I mean I get what you're getting at but if there was ever an example of an industry in Canada where private ownership is helping no one but a bunch of executives it's telecom. oh i was just shitposting to keep his shitpost company.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:45
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gm got their ransom, then did the hostages regardless. but some muthafucks still gonna go to bat for them all day, every day.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:46
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Drunk Canuck posted:Hello wilhelm, have you considered that private business actually makes no sense besides greed. Thank you. Pretty sure that poster once admitted they are (was?) an employee/lobbyist for the oil sector at some point so I hope you arent expecting good faith arguments.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:49
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Here? Never. Unless it's about how dumb looking Andrew Scheer is.
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Jan 10, 2019 21:52
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Wilhelm posted:lmao so hey come to our country but as soon as you make a business decision that's politically unpopular we can unilaterally seize all of your assets? ah yes this will make canada a shining utopia (ps - scandinavian countries also cannot and do not do this) If GM wants to close profitable factories we should nationalize those factories and have the workers continue to operate them while dividing the profits amongst themselves
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Jan 10, 2019 21:56
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Helsing posted:I love how Canadians literally cannot even conceive of the idea that we would use our own resources to fund investments into our own development. Nah, we need all our own money to be going into new granite counter tops for our suburban McMansions, just let people in other countries bankroll our infrastructure. Sure it means we benefit way less than if we had financed the investments domestically and kept them under our control, but we simply cannot afford the upfront costs you see. I know Canadian history is boring as hell for most people, and I had to read a book about the history of labour and the law in Canada that makes a Rex Murphy long article seem exhilarating, but it'd be wild if people learned how involved our government was with Canadian business, how dozens of crown corporations existed side-by-side with private industry, and that a (extremely anti-communist) labour movement had a say in how Canadian society should develop itself and how corporations would behave. I think the 1990s did more damage than any of us who grew up in that era could imagine, with deep cuts, privatization, the collapse of a serious NDP provincial government, the shift rightward of the federal party. But it was all background noise, well before I had any real political awareness.
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Jan 10, 2019 22:00
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The Butcher posted:If it's not a gimmick, the issue is less with what you are saying, then how you are saying it. Part of forcing change on a hopeless and unhappy people like the miserable goons in this thread is encouraging people to listen to rhetoric they are not used to hearing and ideas that they may at first find to be unrealistic or too radical. I know that everyone in this thread is some flavour of socialist, or at least a left-leaning liberal, but you would hardly know it if you read these posts. Going just by the people here, you would think that leftism was dead and buried and fascism was all that there ever was or ever could be. Feel free to roll your eyes at my prose, call me an outdated commie out of step with modern Canada, it doesn't matter to me. Part of effecting change is simply altering the conversation, shifting the Overton Window to the left, giving voice to the oppressed and the powerless. We cannot succeed by moderating our voices, by group-thinking our way out of action or useful ideas. I don't care if nobody takes me seriously, simply by saying these things, we are producing the change that we need to see in the world. The Cheshire Cat posted:The thing about communism is that it's essentially lost the branding war against capitalism. A lot of people are generally supportive of communist/socialist ideas when you present them independently. When you try to wrap them all up as the wider ideology then the programming kicks in and they decide "no actually I don't like those ideas that I previously said I support, I ain't a commie". Because their sense of identity has been built to include "not a socialist" and it's easier for them to just reverse their opinion on specific topics to preserve that identity, than it is to change their sense of identity to more accurately reflect their opinions on those topics. I have been giving a great deal of thought to the problem of the dire influence of capitalistic propaganda on the minds of the working class. When the average Canadian hears Marxist rhetoric, they immediately flinch or react with disdain. This is the result of decades of indoctrination by the parasites. But until recently, people treated LGBTQ issues with the same disdain and reactionary fear with which they treat socialist ideas. The body politic is changing rapidly, and already we see that the old prejudices are dying, resulting in the ascension of people like Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Jeremy Corbyn to the forefront of public discourse. This is why I say that the situation is far from hopeless. Simply by speaking out and exposing people to ideas that they may not have heard before, we are producing an informed and energized working class with the power to effect change. Furthermore, observe the actions of the fascists; until recently people like Steve King and Richard Spencer were ostracized and unorganized. Now look!, We have neo-nazis marching in the streets and fascists forming street gangs like the Proud Boys. And how did they accomplish all of this? By taking advantage of new platforms like social media to spread their message, and normalizing their disgusting diatribe in the minds of the working class. These same methods can be and are being utilized by the Left to accomplish the same basic goals. The same forces that are propelling fascism can also lift up leftist organizations. Have faith comrades, this fight is just beginning! Dreylad posted:I know Canadian history is boring as hell for most people, and I had to read a book about the history of labour and the law in Canada that makes a Rex Murphy long article seem exhilarating, but it'd be wild if people learned how involved our government was with Canadian business, how dozens of crown corporations existed side-by-side with private industry, and that a (extremely anti-communist) labour movement had a say in how Canadian society should develop itself and how corporations would behave. Can you share what sources you have on the history of the labour movement in Canada? I would be very interested in learning more about that topic myself.
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Jan 10, 2019 22:16
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A Typical Goon posted:If GM wants to close profitable factories we should nationalize those factories and have the workers continue to operate them while dividing the profits amongst themselves But nobody has really explained how this would work - in this specific GM context how is this nationalization going to work? Will the government of Canada produce GM vehicles separate from GM's jurisdiction? Are we making our own national Volkswagen that will be able to produce within a year? I'm all for nationalized critical infrastructure (and they can be run very well - many other countries do a better job of this than us) but I don't really understand a pragmatic intervention for a GM or Sears type situation that is realistic. If anyone knows any cases that have been done elsewhere then I'm all ears; I'm asking out of genuine interest. Canada is a small country in the ~~global market~~ and an enormous portion of our employment is in foreign owned companies/publicly traded companies. The system sucks and has a lot of issues with respect to your regular worker, but we aren't really big enough to say gently caress you to it and withdraw without blood on the streets and a much worse standard of living. Furnaceface posted:Pretty sure that poster once admitted they are (was?) an employee/lobbyist for the oil sector at some point so I hope you arent expecting good faith arguments. I work in energy/transport/infrastructure in a broad sense - without revealing too much detail I've worked on light rail transit, power plants, hydro, wind, LNG, and am currently working on wastewater/environmental remediation. I'm probably more pro-shovel in the ground than any specific sector preference (though I do get the most satisfaction out of helping good transit develop). Capri Sunrise fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jan 10, 2019 |
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Jan 10, 2019 22:23
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Literal Hamster posted:Can you share what sources you have on the history of the labour movement in Canada? I would be very interested in learning more about that topic myself. I asked the thread for recommendations on the Winnipeg general strike awhile back and I ended up reading Confrontation at Winnipeg, Labour, Industrial Relations and the General Strike which was good
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Jan 10, 2019 22:25
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turn the gm plant into a giant weed plant problem solved
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Jan 10, 2019 22:31
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prediction: the gm plant will be purchased by the GoC at 120% of whatever GM assesses it's fair value to be, then sold to Bombardier at 20% of this price.
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Jan 10, 2019 22:35
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I too think that there’s a bit of mental illness (re:depression) which is distorting reality a little bit. I think Canada is a lot more socially liberal than the United States with the exception of some suburbs and rural pockets and blue collar areas. But economically yeah they’re super conservative and support austerity. A lot of that has to do with the fact that a majority of the immigrant population is highly educated and bourgeoisie back in their originating countries. They just want to build wealth and view taxes and regulations as limitations they want to do away with so they can make more money. The Bush years and Donald trump have done more to energize a left wing movement than anything else. Canada hasn’t had a moment like that. If right wing extremism is budding in a nation that once believed racism of any kind was unthinkable, why can’t socialism?
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Jan 10, 2019 22:35
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Helsing posted:Remember less than ten years ago when the government gave GM a three billion dollar loan to stop them from getting wiped out by the economic crash? Also remember how the union specifically said it was dumb of the government to sell off all the shares a few years later since the future of GM would have serious implications for the regional economy? Yeah but the federal budget was balanced
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Jan 10, 2019 22:36
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The sooner people realize theyre hosed by gm and global capital instead of begging for their own crumbs every year the sooner we can all just try to gently caress their poo poo up as much as possible before they leave. The only hope is to gently caress poo poo up so much that the liberals lose this year. I heard the oshawa plant had another wildcat yesterday and at least that's a start. IMO they should walk off the job and refuse to work until the plant closes.
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Jan 10, 2019 23:09
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We should probably stop manufacturing loving cars.
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Jan 10, 2019 23:22
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PittTheElder posted:prediction: the gm plant will be purchased by the GoC at 120% of whatever GM assesses it's fair value to be, then sold to Bombardier at 20% of this price. Elon Musk was interested in buying up the plant. Watch everyone fawn over saviour and hero Elon Musk as he swoops in, converts the GM factories into Tesla factories before dismantling their unions.
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Jan 11, 2019 00:05
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Jan posted:Elon Musk was interested in buying up the plant. Watch everyone fawn over saviour and hero Elon Musk as he swoops in, converts the GM factories into Tesla factories before dismantling their unions. That's as far Elon Musk is going to go, he says he's going to do things that are good so his fans will swoon then ultimately does nothing and moves onto his next fuckup
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Jan 11, 2019 00:11
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Maybe if Elon bought a GM plant and kept their workers he could deliver a car without predented hoods and panel gaps that rats can fit through
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Jan 11, 2019 00:18
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Literal Hamster posted:Can you share what sources you have on the history of the labour movement in Canada? I would be very interested in learning more about that topic myself. Macrohistories are plentiful, but I would start with Craig Heron's The Canadian Labour Movement: A Short History. There's more current works like Ian Mckay's Rebels, Reds, Radicals: Rethinking Canada's Left History, and Ruth Frager's Discounted Labour: Women Workers in Canada, 1870-1939. Relevant to the current topic would be Dimitry Anatakis, Auto Pact: Creating a Borderless North American Auto Industry as well as Steven High's Industrial Sunset: The Making of North America's Rust Belt. As for good microhistories, I've always liked: Joy Parr, The Gender of Breadwinners: Women, Men, and Change in Two Industrial Towns, 1880-1950 (really good) Ian Radforth, Bushworkers and Bosses: Logging in Northern Ontario, 1900-1980 Eric Sanger, Seafaring Labour: The Merchant Marine of Atlantic Canada, 1820-1914. Montreal: McGill-Queen’s University Press, 1989 Joan Sangster, Earning Respect: The Lives of Working Women in Small-Town Ontario, 1920-1960 The aforementioned book in my previous post was Labour before the Law: The Regulation of Workers’ Collective Action in Canada, 1900-1948 by Judy Fudge and Eric Tucker. It's a tome. Keep in mind I haven't kept up with Canadian labour history for 4 years or so, and I may be missing some important work that's come out since then. Dreylad fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Jan 11, 2019 |
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Jan 11, 2019 00:34
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RBC posted:Maybe if Elon bought a GM plant and kept their workers he could deliver a car without predented hoods and panel gaps that rats can fit through You seem unaware of a certain reputation for quality that explains why "domestic" companies can't even give their cars away any more and have therefore largely ceased making them.
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Jan 11, 2019 00:35
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