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Kim Jong Il posted:That is an accurate portrayal of their views. I'm making actual arguments and citations, and you are not. 'two old men lied so ergo BDS wants to literally drive all Jews into the sea like the paranoid voices in my head told me'
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Jan 10, 2019 05:08
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Kim Jong Il posted:I agree with them solely in the sense that the formal BDS movement makes the right of return a requirement, and that is inconsistent with Israel's existence. it is absolutely fantastic that a guy arguing, with a straight face, that if the untermenschen are permitted to draw breath on israeli soil it shall no longer be israel, claims to not be a supporter of Likud policy
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Jan 10, 2019 05:08
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also yea speaking as a Jew if our holy land will cease to be if we allow...other people from the holy land to return to it too...then maybe we're the baddies after all?
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Jan 10, 2019 05:14
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sexpig by night posted:also yea speaking as a Jew if our holy land will cease to be if we allow...other people from the holy land to return to it too...then maybe we're the baddies after all? Haven't you seen the gigantic gaping hole labeled "HERE BE DRAGONF" where south africa used to be? He's trying to save Israel from annihilation here.
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Jan 10, 2019 05:16
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Nebalebadingdong posted:this poo poo should be probatable by now Finkelstein doesn't even support BDS lol
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Jan 10, 2019 05:41
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Kim Jong Il posted:For consistency, if boycott is a valid tactic, then it either always must be or never be. And people like Greenwald who are screaming about this proposal are the first to complain about private citizen boycotts of BDS. Absolutely no one is "screaming" about private citizens boycotts of BDS. Why would they?
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Jan 10, 2019 05:59
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Main Paineframe posted:Absolutely no one is "screaming" about private citizens boycotts of BDS. Why would they? Maybe those private citizens are clamoring for the state of BDS to cease to exist. Maybe those "private citizens" are states themselves enacting laws making boycotting Israel illegal.
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Jan 10, 2019 06:04
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Kim Jong Il posted:That is an accurate portrayal of their views. I'm making actual arguments and citations, and you are not. The quote you used from Chomsky is regarding attacks on Finkelstein not about Chomsky's opinion on BDS, you big moron. I've followed Chomsky's responses to BDS and they are a lot more nuanced than you are saying. Also, you are a worthless, disingenuous loving shill and I have no idea why you're still allowed to post in this thread.
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Jan 10, 2019 07:00
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Kim Jong Il posted:I would have written the bill more broadly by instead focusing on state policy on companies that discriminate on the basis of national origin Why am I not surprised you're a supporter of apartheid South Africa
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Jan 10, 2019 07:29
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Kim Jong Il posted:That is American policy though, not Israeli.. That is why I included the Haaretz link after it, where it is illegal in Israel to boycott Israeli settlements. https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-court-upholds-controversial-anti-boycott-law-1.5351666 The law is called Law for Prevention of Damage to State of Israel through Boycott and was largely upheld by the Israeli Supreme Court. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/israel-passes-law-boycotts quote:The Israeli parliament tonight passed a law in effect banning citizens from calling for academic, consumer or cultural boycotts of Israel in a move denounced by its opponents as anti-democratic. This is not an exclusive "American policy." This is also Israeli policy. America is simply following Israel's steps but you ignored that and cited my US link where the US is planning to do the same and said it was not Israeli policy. From the law Israel passed: quote:It in effect bans consumer boycotts of goods produced in West Bank settlements, or of cultural or academic institutions in settlements. Kim Jong Il posted:per Chomsky and Finklestein, that the Israeli state must cease to exist. This is completely wrong. Chomsky opposes BDS targeting Israel itself. In his opposition to the BDS, he says quote:Just as I do not suggest boycotting Harvard University and my own university, even though the United States is involved in horrific acts. […] You might as well boycott the United States," the academic adds." https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/upfront/2016/02/noam-chomsky-opposes-cultural-boycott-israel-160201110337640.html
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Jan 10, 2019 08:14
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Kim Jong Il posted:I would have written the bill more broadly by instead focusing on state policy on companies that discriminate on the basis of national origin Oh yes I would love that, it would mean that states couldn't buy from companies that abide by the sanctions against Iran.
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Jan 10, 2019 09:32
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communism cannot and will not work
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Jan 10, 2019 11:22
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avshalemon posted:communism cannot and will not work not with an attitude like that it won't!
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Jan 10, 2019 11:30
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avshalemon posted:communism cannot and will not work Same, but capitalism.
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Jan 10, 2019 11:31
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DEA posted:That is why I included the Haaretz link after it, where it is illegal in Israel to boycott Israeli settlements. https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-court-upholds-controversial-anti-boycott-law-1.5351666 https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/04/17/avnery-v-the-state-of-israel/
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Jan 10, 2019 12:24
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Disagree with Chomsky on his opposition to education boycott. Israeli universities like Technion are part and parcel with other institutions of apartheid. They develop technologies for the IDF, such as the remote controlled vehicles the IDF use to demolish homes in the WB/GS and other survaillence and military technologies. Their campuses discriminate groups protesting for the plight of the Palestinians compared to pro-IDF and pro-Israel groups. They are as worthless as any other institution of apartheid and not worth a special status because of some idiotic belief that academia transcends ideology or hatred. This is how highly the Israelis consider higher education: 
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Jan 10, 2019 12:24
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Bedshaped posted:Disagree with Chomsky on his opposition to education boycott. When Gilad Shalit was captured by Hamas forces, Israel bombed the only power plant in the Gaza Strip. Six missiles were fired at six transformers. Two missiles missed, so Israel fired two more missiles. https://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200609_act_of_vengeance quote:In the early morning hours of 28 June 2006, following the abduction of Cpl. Gilad Shalit, the Israeli Air Force attacked the only electrical power plant operating in the Gaza Strip. Six missiles were fired at the power plant's six transformers. Two of the missiles missed their target, so two more missiles were fired a few minutes later, destroying the remaining transformers. So if anyone says that Israel probably had a basis for attacking Gaza's university, it was the same basis for bombing Gaza's only power plant. Terrorism. Recently in 2018, Israel started a provocation with Hamas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_clashes_(November_2018) quote:On November 11, Israeli special forces entered Gaza in a blue Volkswagen car through one of the official border crossings, either through Israel's Erez Crossing or Egypt's Rafah Crossing, and the group provided identity documents.[9][10] Two of the passengers are women dressed in traditional Muslim women's clothing.[11][12] So how did Israel seek to defend themselves from the rockets? They bombed a Gaza news station. Video: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/12_November_2018_Israeli_shelling_of_Al-Aqsa_TV_in_Gaza.webm https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/12/violence-after-botched-israeli-raid-in-gaza quote:Israel’s military said it had struck more than 70 sites that it said were strategic “terror targets”. However, one attack flattened a Hamas-run Al-Aqsa TV building on Monday evening, which Israel accused of contributing “to Hamas’s military actions”. What does a Gaza news station have to do with the security of Israel from rockets? By this logic, Hamas has grounds to bomb Israeli universities like Technion for contributing “to Israel's military actions," but such an attack would yield international outcry for bombing an innocent academic institution.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:59
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quit fuckin lying little boy
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Jan 10, 2019 16:51
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Just a reminder that Israel has always had the open and stated intent to use the Sampson doctrine. Point blank: They will set off every nuke they have deliberately to gently caress up the world if they are going to lose a war in the Middle East. “We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.”
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Jan 10, 2019 21:18
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504 posted:Just a reminder that Israel has always had the open and stated intent to use the Sampson doctrine.” They have not. They didn't even have long range missiles for most of their history. Sampson doctrine mostly is a thing people use in thriller novels and weird conspiracy theory stuff. It's absolutely never been official policy and wasn't even physically possible until recently. Every quote about it is some dumb "what would the military do if hitler 2 restarted the holocaust?" type hypotheticals taken out of context to seem spooooky.
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Jan 10, 2019 23:53
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Okay I'm curious, what goods are actually produced in West Bank settlements? And what does the volume of those goods look like compared to the rest of Israel and other countries?
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Jan 11, 2019 00:15
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:They have not. They didn't even have long range missiles for most of their history. Sampson doctrine mostly is a thing people use in thriller novels and weird conspiracy theory stuff. It's absolutely never been official policy and wasn't even physically possible until recently. Every quote about it is some dumb "what would the military do if hitler 2 restarted the holocaust?" type hypotheticals taken out of context to seem spooooky. Rome isn't that far from Israel, an intermediate range missile can hit Rome from a sub somewhere in the Mediterranean. The Sampson option is meant to deter non-Arab states from supporting Arab states in a war against Israel, lest they become a target for nuclear attack.
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Jan 11, 2019 00:22
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Saladin Rising posted:Okay I'm curious, what goods are actually produced in West Bank settlements? hummus, fizzy water, and war crimes also any gun that advertises itself as 'combat tested' https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/proven-israel-thriving-war-business-europe-181219131852124.html
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Jan 11, 2019 00:34
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qkkl posted:Rome isn't that far from Israel, an intermediate range missile can hit Rome from a sub somewhere in the Mediterranean. The Sampson option is meant to deter non-Arab states from supporting Arab states in a war against Israel, lest they become a target for nuclear attack. The few times anything like the samson option was talked about is like, if they lost they'd just massively retaliate against whoever attacked them, drat the consequences. The version where they would start shooting their allies exists only in weird poetic things people have said when asked about situations where like, everyone stood by and let a new holocaust happen or something. Like quotes about what they'd do this time if someone was feeding them into ovens. "Just a reminder that Israel has always had the open and stated intent to use the Sampson doctrine." is conspiracy theory stuff. They wouldn't have that as an open policy even if it was, since they don't even have an open claim of even having nuclear weapons directly.
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Jan 11, 2019 00:55
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504 posted:Just a reminder that Israel has always had the open and stated intent to use the Sampson doctrine. That quote was from an ultra-nationalist academic, not the Israeli government. It's also taken out of context - it's stitched together from remarks in an interview he gave about how the Second Intifada had Israel on the brink of destruction and how the only possible solution was to ethnically cleanse the West Bank and expel all Palestinians, a move which he was convinced Ariel Sharon was preparing to make in the near future. Given that it didn't happen, it's safe to say he was mostly pulling stuff out of his rear end. There's absolutely no evidence to support the claims that Israel has a "destroy the world to drag all humanity down with Israel" plan on the table in case of military defeat. All allegations saying so share one thing in common: none of the sources have any actual special knowledge or sources to suggest that it's true. They're all academics and reporters telling fictional stories based on what they think Israel should do, and then the claims get picked up and trumped up by people eager to claim senseless Jewish plots to destroy the world and drag the Gentiles with them into death.
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Jan 11, 2019 02:27
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DEA posted:What does a Gaza news station have to do with the security of Israel from rockets? By this logic, Hamas has grounds to bomb Israeli universities like Technion for contributing “to Israel's military actions," but such an attack would yield international outcry for bombing an innocent academic institution. It's just collective punishment. It always is, and they will continue doing it because nobody else ever does anything about it. They just want to grind the Palestinians to dust.
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Jan 11, 2019 02:27
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sexpig by night posted:'two old men lied so ergo BDS wants to literally drive all Jews into the sea like the paranoid voices in my head told me' I explicitly did not say that was the formal position, I said it was ending the state of Israel. BDS proponents say that is a far cry from what you are claiming. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:it is absolutely fantastic that a guy arguing, with a straight face, that if the untermenschen are permitted to draw breath on israeli soil it shall no longer be israel, claims to not be a supporter of Likud policy I think Israel's Arabs and Muslims are great. I was not making a normative statement. If millions of Palestinian refugee citizens gained citizenship, do you for a second think they want to live in a Jewish state with Jewish privilege? Of course not - the state would no longer exist. The further implications of what would happen in that case are a separate discussion. sexpig by night posted:also yea speaking as a Jew if our holy land will cease to be if we allow...other people from the holy land to return to it too...then maybe we're the baddies after all? I've never said that I think a binational state or one state would be a bad idea abstractly, I don't think it's feasible. The least worst solution is a Jewish state and a Palestinian state on equal terms. I also distinguished between the formal BDS movement, and supporters who tactically support it but don't necessarily agree with all of its goals. I'm always talking about the former. Main Paineframe posted:Absolutely no one is "screaming" about private citizens boycotts of BDS. Why would they? Literally a few posts ago someone complained about this happening to Angela Davis. Internet Explorer posted:The quote you used from Chomsky is regarding attacks on Finkelstein not about Chomsky's opinion on BDS The quote is about that specific attack on Finkelstein, which was the intention of my post, not to claim he's 100% against the tactic. If you actually read what I said instead of rushing to post, I literally said "both have given other pro-BDS quotes." Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Jan 11, 2019 |
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Jan 11, 2019 03:08
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Cat Mattress posted:Oh yes I would love that, it would mean that states couldn't buy from companies that abide by the sanctions against Iran. You know that I've posted in D&D about hating the Iran sanctions and think they're wildly counterproductive? Sanctions are a whole different can of worms than boycotts. I oppose almost every instance of sanctions, universally, except on arms and weapons. Bedshaped posted:Disagree with Chomsky on his opposition to education boycott. You're saying that they practice collective punishment, so let's get an eye for an eye and do it too. I think the idea that anything can be accomplished by force or coercion is insane and has been repeatedly and overwhelmingly discredited. In all contexts.
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Jan 11, 2019 03:14
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Kim Jong Il posted:I think Israel's Arabs and Muslims are great. I was not making a normative statement. If millions of Palestinian refugee citizens gained citizenship, do you for a second think they want to live in a Jewish state with Jewish privilege? Of course not - the state would no longer exist. The further implications of what would happen in that case are a separate discussion. not great enough to, yknow, consider them worthy of equality under the law, but as long as they know their place under the israeli boot, you're okay with them in the abstract these are definitely the words of someone who is meaningfully distinct from netanyahu, politically
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Jan 11, 2019 03:58
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Kim Jong Il posted:The quote is about that specific attack on Finkelstein, which was the intention of my post, not to claim he's 100% against the tactic. If you actually read what I said instead of rushing to post, I literally said "both have given other pro-BDS quotes." The intention of your post was to Gish Gallop your bullshit all over the thread, just like normal. How many times have you been probated in this thread alone?
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Jan 11, 2019 06:05
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Internet Explorer posted:The intention of your post was to Gish Gallop your bullshit all over the thread, just like normal. How many times have you been probated in this thread alone? I was curious. 8 pages of posts, 10 probations for an average of 1 per 32 posts.
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Jan 11, 2019 06:30
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Kim Jong Il posted:I think Israel's Arabs and Muslims are great. I was not making a normative statement. If millions of Palestinian refugee citizens gained citizenship, do you for a second think they want to live in a Jewish state with Jewish privilege? Of course not - the state would no longer exist. The further implications of what would happen in that case are a separate discussion. Do you believe that in order to have a democratic society all people ought to have equality before the law? If yes, how do you maintain "Jewish privilege" in such a society? And why is this desirable?
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Jan 11, 2019 10:03
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Kim Jong Il posted:You're saying that they practice collective punishment, so let's get an eye for an eye and do it too. I think the idea that anything can be accomplished by force or coercion is insane and has been repeatedly and overwhelmingly discredited. In all contexts. Collective punishment is a crime against humanity. Boycotts are not. Everything you have to say on the matter is a line from the pro-Apartheid South Africa playbook, which for some reason is often deployed by Israel and its defenders. Can you think of a reason that might be?
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Jan 11, 2019 10:38
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Kim Jong Il posted:I think Israel's Arabs and Muslims are great. I was not making a normative statement. If millions of Palestinian refugee citizens gained citizenship, do you for a second think they want to live in a Jewish state with Jewish privilege? Of course not - the state would no longer exist. The further implications of what would happen in that case are a separate discussion. Yes, if you define "existence of Israel" as "existence of an ethnosupremacist settler-colonialist apartheid regime", indeed, most everyone sane will want the end of the state of Israel as you define it. Ethnosupremacist settler-colonialist apartheid regimes are bad things which shouldn't exist. And they definitely shouldn't be supported by western countries in the 21st century. Kim Jong Il posted:You're saying that they practice collective punishment, so let's get an eye for an eye and do it too. I think the idea that anything can be accomplished by force or coercion is insane and has been repeatedly and overwhelmingly discredited. In all contexts. This is not at all equivalent; since nobody is advocating for military intervention resulting in the physical destruction of Israeli infrastructures and institutions.
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Jan 11, 2019 10:42
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Kim Jong Il posted:I think Israel's Arabs and Muslims are great. I was not making a normative statement. If millions of Palestinian refugee citizens gained citizenship, do you for a second think they want to live in a Jewish state with Jewish privilege? Of course not - the state would no longer exist. The further implications of what would happen in that case are a separate discussion. If people living under apartheid were allowed to vote on it, they would vote against apartheid, and this is unconscionable. Do you ever have an "are we the baddies" moment when you sound just like the Afrikaner security state propagandizing its people to fear the existential threat of the swart gevaar
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Jan 11, 2019 15:30
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Kim Jong Il posted:I think Israel's Arabs and Muslims are great. I was not making a normative statement. If millions of Palestinian refugee citizens gained citizenship, do you for a second think they want to live in a Jewish state with Jewish privilege? Of course not - the state would no longer exist. The further implications of what would happen in that case are a separate discussion. Does South Africa no longer exist?
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Jan 11, 2019 15:31
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Kim Jong Il posted:I've never said that I think a binational state or one state would be a bad idea abstractly, I don't think it's feasible. The least worst solution is a Jewish state and a Palestinian state on equal terms. Like most things about the two-state solution, that's nothing more than a convenient fantasy used as an excuse to dismiss real solutions. A Jewish state and Palestinian state on equal terms might have been possible back in 1948, but today, the idea is as ridiculous as claiming that white Americans and black Americans were on equal terms in 1966. The only thing that can equalize the vast power gap between Israeli Jews and Palestinians is democracy, where the Palestinians' numbers can grant them sufficient influence to begin dismantling Israeli apartheid. That's why Israel supporters are so insistent on a two-state solution. It removes the only path by which the Palestinians can seek true equality, and instead casts the relationship between Israeli Jews and Palestinians in terms of economic and military power - a dynamic that overwhelmingly favors Israel, and would reduce a theoretically independent Palestine to little more than a vassal state used to politically segregate Israel's inconvenient racial groups.
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Jan 11, 2019 17:16
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I think an end to Jim Crow is impossible, the only solution to America's racial woes is a two-state solution with an independent Black America, ah what a shame that the black-majority counties don't make a viable state, I guess there's nothing to be done.
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Jan 11, 2019 17:48
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reignonyourparade posted:Does South Africa no longer exist? tbf to him the exact analogue is does the boer apartheid state still exist? to which the answer is no and the further answer is good riddance
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Jan 11, 2019 18:18
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